[maxgroebel]

Dear friends,

In 2017 I bought a Pentax K3II, but I have never really become friends with it. It never gave pictures with the same colour saturation and contrast as my old K20D. Some pictures were OK, but many, many outright horrible. I mainly only shoot on when travelling etc; you might call it landscapes with some good will. Only JPEG straight out of the camera.

I have asked for advice a couple of times on this Forum, and I have got many valuable (if occasionally contradictory) tips and comments over the years. Several contributors (like Peppery farm, Stevebrot, Pschlute, Mikesbike) seem to be a bit cross that I did not come back to thank for the tips, and announce that everything was OK now.

The reason is that it has taken me five years to digest the tips and find all the settings you have mentioned, and change them. I have also got rid of all my old lenses. I now only have DA40, DA50 and DFA100WR and an old 70-210.

The most annoying thing was that image tone setting changed accidentally all the time, away from the “landscape” setting I prefer. I tried to set the four-way controller to control the AF point instead. It rarely worked. I suppose I will have to resort to U1 etc.

Speaking of image tone, some comments say that “bright” and “natural” give good colour saturation and contrast. In my experience accidental settings at “bright” have given some of the worst results. “Bleach bypass” is sometimes interesting, but far too murky to be usable. Can it be tweaked a bit? What is “Bleach bypass” and what is it meant for? Brilliant and vibrant are no options. BTW, do the various image tone settings affect sharpness somehow?

The other recurring problem is that ISO settings have flown away accidentally and become far too high. U1 again. It seems one shouldn’t go beyond 400 for landscapes. But I obviously need DOF and small apertures. So it seems that I can hardly use the camera in low light, at least not for landscapes. This is bad news, because we have a lot of low light in Sweden.

Just two crops to illustrate remaining differences. Never mind the sharpness. It’s the colours I’m worried about. Mostly the same (recommended) settings. The only differences are D-range settings, and high ISO noise reduction, saturation and contrast, 1 and 1 on K3II; 0 and 2 on K20D. Could underexposure of K20D really explain the difference?

Max

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[AfterPentax Mark II]

I own the K-3 Mark II as well. I would rather say that the first picture is overexposed. And a little underexposure can give a satisfying colour to a picture, I used underexposure all the time in the film era. Looked more satisfying. What I noticed is that the K-3 II demands quality lenses. I bought the kit with the 16-85 in 2018 just after the camera was discontinued. And I did not like the combination. But the camera started to shine when I put the DA 55mm * on it. My setting always is, and has been, natural. In terms of colour I get more satisfaction from my K-01 and KP with most of my lenses. If I put my DA 50mm 1.8 on the K-3 II I get better colours, in your picture I would say they are dull. I must say that I once tried the landscape setting in the K-3 II and did not know how fast to go back to natural when shooting landscape. And I always use ISO 125 or 100.

[The Squirrel Mafia]

The K-3II shot looks a bit overexposed. It could be a byproduct of the D-Range settings. The shadow correction settings will boost up shadows a bit. Try turning off both the shadow & highlight correction & try it again.

I mainly shoot my K-3II in M most of the time or Tav with the auto ISO set from 100 to 12800 when I'm a bit lazy. The K-3II seems to have a tendency to overexpose at times. And yeah. The DA Limiteds & DA* lenses shine on the K-3II.

[GUB]

I am thinking it is the midtones at issue even though, yes, the whites are a little more clipped. By pulling back the mid tones and moving the black point a little (as in my curves tool) most of the difference is gone. Screen shot is the K3. Guessing there is a colour setting setting or jpeg contrast type setting at issue

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[ramseybuckeye]

Speaking of image tone, some comments say that “bright” and “natural” give good colour saturation and contrast. In my experience accidental settings at “bright” have given some of the worst results. “Bleach bypass” is sometimes interesting, but far too murky to be usable. Can it be tweaked a bit? What is “Bleach bypass” and what is it meant for? Brilliant and vibrant are no options. BTW, do the various image tone settings affect sharpness somehow?

The other recurring problem is that ISO settings have flown away accidentally and become far too high. U1 again. It seems one shouldn’t go beyond 400 for landscapes. But I obviously need DOF and small apertures. So it seems that I can hardly use the camera in low light, at least not for landscapes. This is bad news, because we have a lot of low light in Sweden.

Max

For an explanation of the custom images, the Ricoh Japan website goes through each of them in detail. You can set your auto ISO to have limits and not go above 400, or whatever you choose. I would also suggest that you try shooting in Manual mode, where you can control much more. I would also switch to multi segment metering over center weighted, it will meter the whole frame, usually with better results in that type of photo since it will make exposure adjustments.

Your low light shooting friend for landscapes is a tripod. With a tripod you can shoot at ISO 100, and be able to get the slower shutter speeds to have nice clear photos at the aperture you choose. It's quite easy to set up exposure while shooting on manual on a tripod. You can change either the shutter speed or the aperture to get the exposure you want. I always have a tripod in the car, I don't always use it, but for low light landscapes it is a must.

Two important answers that I've read over the years when someone asked about improving their photography were: use a tripod, and learn exposure, I've never stopped learning, and still have a long way to go. And just when I think I have one thing figured out, a new variable is introduced.

The photo below is a twilight landscape, shot with a tripod. The sun is under the horizon but still lighting the sky. I used multi segment metering which allowed the camera to use the whole sky and reflected light in the water to meter. had I used center weighted (or worse spot) metering the boat would have been better exposed, but the sky would have probably been vastly overexposed and the colors would not be as vibrant, if they were there at all. There are times that center weighted and spot are more useful, but not usually in a landscape. I used F9 to get a greater depth of field, and bumped the ISO up to 400 so I could get a little faster shutter speed since the boat was moving, that allowed for a 1/30 shutter speed. I could have done that handheld at 21mm, but I can never hold it as still as the tripod.

[microlight]

I also routinely under-expose slightly (-0.7EV) on the K-3II/20-40 combination and then adjust in post, where I often have to slightly reduce saturation. Indeed, my normal pre-set reduces the green saturation a little. Have you considered shooting in raw? The additional control that it gives you is powerful.

[K(s)evin]

Something else you may or may not have been told is that each of your cameras use different sensor technology. The K20D has a CCD sensor which tends to produce truer, more saturated colors. The CCD is horrible with low light shooting though, and the ISO should be kept low. Your K3ll on the other hand, has a CMOS sensor, which is much more capable in lower light. Noise does not become a problem until ISO hits much higher numbers. The trade-off for less noise is some deficiency in color reproduction. You probably need to up the saturation in photos to get closer to the older sensor.

[MrB1]

The difference is probably due to the exposure - K-3ii 1/500s and f/7.1; and K20D 1/640s and f/8. This could be due to the centre-weighted metering - the bright white house is closer to the centre of the frame in the K20D composition, which would reduce that camera's exposure settings.

Philip

[RICHARD L.]

The K20D has a CCD sensor

The Pentax K20d has a Samsung 14,6 Mpx CMOS sensor. It was the K10d that had a 10 Mpx CCD sensor.

[K(s)evin]

The Pentax K20d has a Samsung 14,6 Mpx CMOS sensor. It was the K10d that had a 10 Mpx CCD sensor.

My bad.

[RICHARD L.]

My bad.

No problem !

[maxgroebel]

Thanks a lot for all valuable comments. I believe I will follow the advice concerning underexposure, ISO, D-range and contrast. I will experiment with “natural” and other colour settings. And thanks for the tip about Ricoh Japan homepage. Metering depends on the situation of course. I sometimes use centerweighted to avoid over-exposing a bright center, when there is a lot of foliage around it. I am more hesitant to invest in DA Lim and DA* lenses. Many of them are wide-angles which I try to avoid. (Things get too small, perspective is distorted and they create anguish). I did try the DA70 twice and sold them, which perhaps was a mistake. Tripod is not realistic on my travels. Furthermore I still measure 200cm (6ft7in) and it’s hard to find tripods that are tall enough. But thanks for the tip. We should never stop learning.

[RICHARD L.]

Pentax digital cameras offer several "Color Palette" possibilities. The 645Z Medium-format camera is just a big K3 with a larger sensor but with very similar image adjustments. You should shoot similar scenes with the different choices offered and choose the color rendering you prefer.

Images taken with a 645Z + FA 45-85 mm f/4.5 zoom on tripod a few seconds apart with 1) RADIANT 2) REVERSAL FILM 3) BRIGHT 4) PORTRAIT 5) LANDSCAPE 6) VIBRANT. Personally I prefer "Landscape" or "Vibrant" for landscape or architectural images. "Radiant" is unrealistic and "Portrait" seems dull to my eyes.

[mikesbike]

Thanks a lot for all valuable comments. I believe I will follow the advice concerning underexposure, ISO, D-range and contrast. I will experiment with “natural” and other colour settings. And thanks for the tip about Ricoh Japan homepage. Metering depends on the situation of course. I sometimes use centerweighted to avoid over-exposing a bright center, when there is a lot of foliage around it. I am more hesitant to invest in DA Lim and DA* lenses. Many of them are wide-angles which I try to avoid. (Things get too small, perspective is distorted and they create anguish). I did try the DA70 twice and sold them, which perhaps was a mistake. Tripod is not realistic on my travels. Furthermore I still measure 200cm (6ft7in) and it’s hard to find tripods that are tall enough. But thanks for the tip. We should never stop learning.

Wide angle lenses do certainly distort perspective, and objects have to appear smaller in order to fit more of the scene into the frame, which is a major objective of wide angle shots. However, telephoto shooting also distorts perspective, but in a different way. Whereas wide angle shots can create an elongated effect between foreground and background, telephoto shots compress distance, with foreground subjects seeming to be closer to background subjects than they are in reality. These effects can be used to advantage, depending on the type of scene and what you are trying to achieve.

A quality all-around zoom lens capable of both WA and tele shots will allow you to play with what you can do with these effects. For an APS-C DSLR camera, 35mm is considered a "normal" focal length (FL) but to be extra picky, 28mm would provide the most accurate front-to-back perspective for most scenes. The shooting distance to the main subject compared to the background also plays a meaningful role in this, especially if the lens is rather close to the subject. This distance factor also can change perspective. For example, not a good idea to shoot a close facial portrait at 28mm and expect natural perspective, when as it turns out the subject's features will then likely be somewhat elongated front to back. For a person having a long nose, it would appear even longer!

---------- Post added 06-13-22 at 07:36 PM ----------

Speaking of image tone, some comments say that “bright” and “natural” give good colour saturation and contrast. In my experience accidental settings at “bright” have given some of the worst results.

Well, the "Bright" category features enhancement of color saturation, contrast, and sharpening. The common experience is, if these factors appear overdone, or when dealing with a scene with very high contrast of its own, a switch to "Natural" might be a good option, as this category is set up to not enhance but to present a well-balanced neutral effect. As to color, each category has its own color palette. To make matters more confusing, camera models even in the same Pentax brand do differ in these aspects. The K20D does tend to underexpose considerably. This will tend to enrich color saturation some in addition to which category is selected making a difference here. The "bright" category is default for every Pentax camera I've used, including the K20D. However, if you shoot with your mode dial set to the green "Auto" mode, the Custom Image category setting is also switched to "auto" where the camera will select a Custom Image category, according to what it "thinks" is appropriate for the scene it "thinks" it is "seeing". For fully automated exposure by the camera adjusting aperture and shutter speed (and also ISO if you have that set on "auto"), it is far better to use the "P" Program mode, which will allow access to making your own various adjustments. Then the camera will leave other of your own settings as you set them.

Also then accessible will be the exclusive Pentax Hyper system where if the camera has chosen an aperture or shutter speed not to your liking, you can instantly change either on the spot simply by selecting your choice by using your thumb or front finger dial and the camera will obey, as long as there is enough light with the ISO setting to accommodate. You are then in Hyper Program mode. The camera is instantly switched into either Av or Tv operation without first having to set Av or Tv on the mode dial before making your selection. Very fast and efficient for making changes on the fly. Full P mode is instantly restored with a touch of the green button.

[maxgroebel]

Wide angle lenses do certainly distort perspective, and objects have to appear smaller in order to fit more of the scene into the frame, which is a major objective of wide angle shots. However, telephoto shooting also distorts perspective, but in a different way. Whereas wide angle shots can create an elongated effect between foreground and background, telephoto shots compress distance, with foreground subjects seeming to be closer to background subjects than they are in reality. These effects can be used to advantage, depending on the type of scene and what you are trying to achieve.

A quality all-around zoom lens capable of both WA and tele shots will allow you to play with what you can do with these effects. For an APS-C DSLR camera, 35mm is considered a "normal" focal length (FL) but to be extra picky, 28mm would provide the most accurate front-to-back perspective for most scenes. The shooting distance to the main subject compared to the background also plays a meaningful role in this, especially if the lens is rather close to the subject. This distance factor also can change perspective. For example, not a good idea to shoot a close facial portrait at 28mm and expect natural perspective, when as it turns out the subject's features will then likely be somewhat elongated front to back. For a person having a long nose, it would appear even longer!

---------- Post added 06-13-22 at 07:36 PM ----------



Well, the "Bright" category features enhancement of color saturation, contrast, and sharpening. The common experience is, if these factors appear overdone, or when dealing with a scene with very high contrast of its own, a switch to "Natural" might be a good option, as this category is set up to not enhance but to present a well-balanced neutral effect. As to color, each category has its own color palette. To make matters more confusing, camera models even in the same Pentax brand do differ in these aspects. The K20D does tend to underexpose considerably. This will tend to enrich color saturation some in addition to which category is selected making a difference here. The "bright" category is default for every Pentax camera I've used, including the K20D. However, if you shoot with your mode dial set to the green "Auto" mode, the Custom Image category setting is also switched to "auto" where the camera will select a Custom Image category, according to what it "thinks" is appropriate for the scene it "thinks" it is "seeing". For fully automated exposure by the camera adjusting aperture and shutter speed (and also ISO if you have that set on "auto"), it is far better to use the "P" Program mode, which will allow access to making your own various adjustments. Then the camera will leave other of your own settings as you set them.

Also then accessible will be the exclusive Pentax Hyper system where if the camera has chosen an aperture or shutter speed not to your liking, you can instantly change either on the spot simply by selecting your choice by using your thumb or front finger dial and the camera will obey, as long as there is enough light with the ISO setting to accommodate. You are then in Hyper Program mode. The camera is instantly switched into either Av or Tv operation without first having to set Av or Tv on the mode dial before making your selection. Very fast and efficient for making changes on the fly. Full P mode is instantly restored with a touch of the green button.

Thanks, mikesbike, for your comments. Yes, I know that both wide-angles and telephotos distort the perspective. The difference is that I don’t like the wide-angle perspective at all, but I am rather fond of the compression, and cleaner composition that short telephotos stimulate to. That is why I will try to do without wide-angles. If I should absolutely need one, I will use my cellphone.
I am ashamed to say that I have tried at least some fifty Pentax lens models over the last forty years, and got rid of most, including several all-round zooms. Prime lenses do give a better image quality, they are lighter, and you don’t have to worry about the focal length. My experience is that zooms tempt you to go for the extremes, especially the short end in order to cram in as much as possible. When I went through the pictures I have taken with zooms, I found that the vast majority were at 28-35 or wider, and would have been better at 40-50 or longer in APS-C.
If I understand you correctly, you confirm that the colour settings also affect sharpness, Good to know.
I am afraid that, with all this automation, I have just become negligent about the basics of photography. So I must go back to small apertures for DOF, more often P and Hyper, lower ISOs etc. And I shall continue to experiment with the colour settings. Thanks for the tips.

Can anyone explain what bleach bypass is?