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06-20-2022, 06:44 AM   #1
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Is this lens haze?

Hello,

I recently found out that almost all of my vintage lenses are probably ruined by something that looks like haze. But I don't have enough knowledge to make a definite call on that, so that's why I want your opinion on the matter.

The lenses were clean when I bought them and I figured that keeping them stored in an electrically controlled drybox would keep them safe from fungus etc, but forgot about the temperature in my house during summers which can easily go up to 30+ degrees even with the AC running and the possibility of haze because of that.

I've read that the lubrication used in the lenses can vaporize when it becomes too hot, so I guess that's what happened, altho it seems silly to me that it would happen at such a relative "low" temprature.

Sorry if this is a stupid question, I hope you people can give me some answers.

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06-20-2022, 07:20 AM   #2
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Fungus!
This could happen if you were storing the lenses in eg a cupboard under the stairs or basement storage locker that is actually a bit cooler and damper than you realise.
06-20-2022, 07:22 AM   #3
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QuoteOriginally posted by marcusBMG Quote
Fungus!
This could happen if you were storing the lenses in eg a cupboard under the stairs that is actually a bit cooler and damper than you realise.
They are stored in an electrically controlled dry box which is always between 35-45% humidity, shouldn't that make fungus growth impossible?
06-20-2022, 07:24 AM - 1 Like   #4
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I am not an expert but that looks like a case of balsam separation to me. Balsam was the glue used to affix one or more elements together. If that is the case there is no easy fix aside from heating the elements to separate them, and cleaning and re-glueing !

06-20-2022, 07:26 AM   #5
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What temperature did your "drybox" maintain these and did it include any provisions for moisture control (removal)? What you have could be fungus which would have been encouraged by moisture at higher temperatures, and if your drybox was sealed with moisture in it, it would have acted like a sauna and been a good place for growth to take place. Usually, moisture control is more important than temperature control for storing lenses. The other thing you mention is lubricant migration, but it would have to be a pretty warm location for that to happen, and that usually deposits a uniform layer rather than the "spotty" deposits you illustrated. Chances are, it is fungus, and the conditions were right for the spread to all your lenses.

ADDENDA (after more comments): If the temperature is elevated, 35-45% relative humidity is certainly high enough to allow fungus growth. You want the RH closer to 15% for long term storage and if in a sealed space, temperature can influence the RH greatly. A dryer provision should always be included in a sealed space. There can always be moisture trapped in the lenses themselves which a dryer will pull out, but if in a sealed environment, this trapped moisture will be detrimental, long term. Also, that drying agent should be checked periodically because it can become saturated and quit doing its job.

Sorry about your loss in those lenses.

Last edited by Bob 256; 06-20-2022 at 07:37 AM.
06-20-2022, 07:42 AM   #6
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QuoteOriginally posted by Bob 256 Quote
What temperature did your "drybox" maintain these and did it include any provisions for moisture control (removal)? What you have could be fungus which would have been encouraged by moisture at higher temperatures, and if your drybox was sealed with moisture in it, it would have acted like a sauna and been a good place for growth to take place. Usually, moisture control is more important than temperature control for storing lenses. The other thing you mention is lubricant migration, but it would have to be a pretty warm location for that to happen, and that usually deposits a uniform layer rather than the "spotty" deposits you illustrated. Chances are, it is fungus, and the conditions were right for the spread to all your lenses.

ADDENDA (after more comments): If the temperature is elevated, 35-45% relative humidity is certainly high enough to allow fungus growth. You want the RH closer to 15% for long term storage and if in a sealed space, temperature can influence the RH greatly. A dryer provision should always be included in a sealed space.
The drybox has no temprature control, so it's usually about the same as the room temprature which has been between 25-30 degrees Celsius the past few weeks. It does however have a built in dehumidifying system. (don't mind the humidity meter inside of the case, it's off by about 8%)
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06-20-2022, 07:49 AM   #7
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QuoteOriginally posted by iHAZCAMERA Quote
The drybox has no temprature control, so it's usually about the same as the room temprature which has been between 25-30 degrees Celsius the past few weeks. It does however have a built in dehumidifying system. (don't mind the humidity meter inside of the case, it's off by about 8%)
Then it's not really a "drybox" - just a storage cabinet with an inaccurate RH meter. I don't mean to be sarcastic but for that large a space, it needs something to remove the moisture and get it lower (and more importantly - keep it lower) than 20%RH. A large bag of silica gel in the bottom would do the job. Otherwise you might just have an incubation box. With the door closed, the RH can climb a lot if the temperature falls and you might not be there to notice it. Sometimes, this can "pump" moisture in if there are leaks, then when the temperature goes back up - happy mycelium time.

Not much solace for where you are now, but for future reference.


Last edited by Bob 256; 06-20-2022 at 09:17 AM.
06-20-2022, 09:42 AM   #8
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Concerning fungus, this thread is of interest: Environments favourable to Fungus - PentaxForums.com

The various references that are cited suggest that keeping the relative humidity below ~60-65%, regardless of typical ambient temperatures, would prevent the establishment of fungus.

It would be useful if other applicable references could be cited.


- Craig

Last edited by c.a.m; 06-20-2022 at 10:09 AM.
06-20-2022, 10:55 AM   #9
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QuoteOriginally posted by Bob 256 Quote
Then it's not really a "drybox" - just a storage cabinet with an inaccurate RH meter. I don't mean to be sarcastic but for that large a space, it needs something to remove the moisture and get it lower (and more importantly - keep it lower) than 20%RH. A large bag of silica gel in the bottom would do the job. Otherwise you might just have an incubation box. With the door closed, the RH can climb a lot if the temperature falls and you might not be there to notice it. Sometimes, this can "pump" moisture in if there are leaks, then when the temperature goes back up - happy mycelium time.

Not much solace for where you are now, but for future reference.
I think you are misreading this. The cabinet has relative humidity controls not simply a meter. It maintains a specific relative humidity which should be maintained regardless of temperature. It doesn’t maintain temp. It does dehumidify. The op was saying to ignore the stand alone humidity readout (which I assume is a separate item) as he thinks it is off by 8% high).

It is possible that the stand alone humidity monitor is the accurate one and the dehumidification meter on the equipment cabinet reads lower than expected.

Ultimately if the cabinet maintained the RH at 30% or lower ( this assumes the RH is correctly adjusted as temps fluctuate) is it likely it is fungus?
06-20-2022, 11:25 AM   #10
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QuoteOriginally posted by UncleVanya Quote
I think you are misreading this. The cabinet has relative humidity controls not simply a meter. It maintains a specific relative humidity which should be maintained regardless of temperature. It doesn’t maintain temp. It does dehumidify. The op was saying to ignore the stand alone humidity readout (which I assume is a separate item) as he thinks it is off by 8% high).
That’s what I meant indeed!

I did a salt calibration test with the stand alone meter which showed me it’s about 8% off, I just add it in my head when reading that one.

---------- Post added 06-20-22 at 11:30 AM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by c.a.m Quote
Concerning fungus, this thread is of interest: Environments favourable to Fungus - PentaxForums.com

The various references that are cited suggest that keeping the relative humidity below ~60-65%, regardless of typical ambient temperatures, would prevent the establishment of fungus.

It would be useful if other applicable references could be cited.


- Craig
This is what I’ve been reading, so that’s why I’m surprised multiple people so far told me it’s fungus. RH has never been close to 60%.

Either way, it looks like I lost two years worth of collecting
06-20-2022, 11:40 AM   #11
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It would appear to be fungus. In my experience haze from out-gassing oils is just that - a uniform haze without spots other than dust. Somewhat like fogging a lens when you breathe on it.
06-20-2022, 12:31 PM   #12
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I would love a nice macro shot of one of them so I could see the fog more clearly.
06-20-2022, 12:52 PM   #13
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QuoteOriginally posted by Not a Number Quote
It would appear to be fungus. In my experience haze from out-gassing oils is just that - a uniform haze without spots other than dust. Somewhat like fogging a lens when you breathe on it.
Do you have an idea how fungus would grow in a non humid environment? Because I thought dust and humidity were the worst enemy.

---------- Post added 06-20-22 at 12:53 PM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by UncleVanya Quote
I would love a nice macro shot of one of them so I could see the fog more clearly.
I’ll try to get one once I’m near my lenses again, moved them to a different place since my house seems to love to ruin them..

---------- Post added 06-20-22 at 12:53 PM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by UncleVanya Quote
I would love a nice macro shot of one of them so I could see the fog more clearly.
I’ll try to get one once I’m near my lenses again, moved them to a different place since my house seems to love to ruin them..

---------- Post added 06-20-22 at 12:53 PM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by UncleVanya Quote
I would love a nice macro shot of one of them so I could see the fog more clearly.
I’ll try to get one once I’m near my lenses again, moved them to a different place since my house seems to love to ruin them..
06-20-2022, 12:55 PM   #14
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I've had a few fungus lenses and this looks nothing like them. I'd assume balsam separation or some other issue. But since it's all of these lenses that doesn't even make sense either.

For fungus to become this bad to begin with you'd need some truly horrible conditions (in a wet non climate controlled shed for a long time). I'd attempt cleaning one or two of them.
06-20-2022, 01:00 PM - 1 Like   #15
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The first thing I'll say is, the "torch test" makes any vintage lens look absolutely terrible. There is usually a good deal of dust and small debris in most of these... and where Soviet lenses are concerned, you can count on it. Those that have been "serviced" by the previous owner will often still have dust in them, as well as cleaning marks (visible in a few of your photos) and an occasional finger or thumb print (also visible in one of the photos). Torch light makes these things look much worse than they are, and they'll usually have very little effect on image quality - however, even with all these things considered, the images you've shown do look considerably worse than I'd expect. The most concerning aspect is the short "strands", which could indeed be fungus. Also, some of the spots look a bit larger than simply dust - suggesting either lubricant or fungus - though it's possible this could simply be de-focused dust. Balsam separation, as some have mentioned, is a possibility too. If it's dust and/or fungus, none of the lenses look so bad that they couldn't be cleaned and returned to good shape, if you have the will, time and some basic tools to do it...
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