[Retro Snapper]

Hello,
Probably, like most newbies, I set my camera (K7) to JPEG, took photos and looked at them on my laptop via "Microsoft photos". I could crop them and tweak the colour a bit etc.
Then, after reading about RAW files and post processing, I set my camera to JPEG + RAW with PEF format selected.
When I viewed my photos on the laptop, they were as expected. An acceptable JPEG and a muted PEF. I would then process the PEF file in Adobe Photoshop Express and again get acceptable results (plus I was learning what effect the various adjustments had).
All well and good so far. Then I read somewhere, possibly on these pages, that photoshop express does not support PEF files. No problem, I reset the RAW files to DNG in the camera.
Now when I view my pictures on the laptop, the JPEG and the DNG file look identical. They both have the expected in camera processing applied to the JPEG (I have the camera set to vivid). I still tweak the DNG files in Photoshop express. So what is going on here? I would expect the DNG files to look muted like the PEF files. Can any one explain what is going on here? Not really an issue, I am just curious.
Thanks in advance.

[photoptimist]

TL;DNR: It is likely that your viewing program understands DNG better than it understands PEF and is using the in-camera image settings stored in EXIF to generate a viewable image.


Background: DNG is a more standardized RAW format. PEF is a Pentax-specific RAW format. Each camera maker has their own proprietary RAW format which may include some features not readily available with DNG. Both DNG and PEF store the RAW, unprocessed sensor data.

Most of the in-camera image settings (white balance, color processing, sharpness, contrast, etc.) have absolutely no effect on the RAW sensor data stored in a PEF or DNG file. However, those in-camera image settings are used to create any JPEG image associated with the picture such as the thumbnail and the JPG twin if you use RAW+JPG. Moreover, the in-camera image settings are stored in the EXIF data. Many viewing and editing programs will use those in-camera image settings if the program knows how to unpack the RAW file. To unpack the file, your software needs updated code or configuration files to know how to handle your camera's files. Different software makers are better (or worse) at creating updates for every new camera model and sometimes users don't update their software often enough.


Note: You will never ever actually see the RAW file outside of some very technical image data processing programs. If you actually tried to look at the RAW data, it would be very muted, very green, and composed of a checkboard pattern of black-to-red, black-to-blue, and black-to-green speckles. Moreover, unless you had a 14-bit per color channel monitor, any viewing of the RAW file would required a contrast adjustment that pulls up the shadows and would make the image look even more muted.

Under almost all circumstances, viewing a RAW file requires processing the RAW pixels into something the monitor can display and which corrects for technical peculiarities of the camera sensor. Thus, viewing a RAW file entails interpreting the colors which requires using at least some of the data in EXIF.

[StiffLegged]

Hello Dean (?), another K-7 user here. When you say Photoshop Express (PE) doesn't support PEF files but you were able to edit them, then your version must support PEF files. Otherwise you'd get an error message from PE.

When you import a DNG file from the camera, PE applies some default processing to it and this has probably coincided with your JPG settings in the K-7. I use an old version of Photoshop with Adobe Camera RAW and the DNG files I imported from the camera had a default set of contrast, saturation, clarity etc applied to every single one of them. That wasn't what I really wanted, so I changed these defaults to no change in contrast, saturation and no clarity etc applied and this gives a very flat, dull starting point to begin processing from. This is a preset configuration which Adobe Camera RAW remembers.

If I want a "standard" result from the raw files, I make another preset configuration or maybe several for different circumstances: select the preset and the image(s) are automatically processed all the same. However, I very rarely do that!

Hope this helps.

[Retro Snapper]

Hello Dean (?), another K-7 user here. When you say Photoshop Express (PE) doesn't support PEF files but you were able to edit them, then your version must support PEF files. Otherwise you'd get an error message from PE.

When you import a DNG file from the camera, PE applies some default processing to it and this has probably coincided with your JPG settings in the K-7. I use an old version of Photoshop with Adobe Camera RAW and the DNG files I imported from the camera had a default set of contrast, saturation, clarity etc applied to every single one of them. That wasn't what I really wanted, so I changed these defaults to no change in contrast, saturation and no clarity etc applied and this gives a very flat, dull starting point to begin processing from. This is a preset configuration which Adobe Camera RAW remembers.

If I want a "standard" result from the raw files, I make another preset configuration or maybe several for different circumstances: select the preset and the image(s) are automatically processed all the same. However, I very rarely do that!

Hope this helps.

Thank you. Maybe I just go back to the PEF format setting so that I get the base starting point for processing.
Where are the defaults that you changed to "no". In the camera settings or in the PE programme?

Thanks again for your help. I will do a bit of trial and error and see what happens.

---------- Post added 09-24-22 at 12:57 PM ----------

TL;DNR: It is likely that your viewing program understands DNG better than it understands PEF and is using the in-camera image settings stored in EXIF to generate a viewable image.


Background: DNG is a more standardized RAW format. PEF is a Pentax-specific RAW format. Each camera maker has their own proprietary RAW format which may include some features not readily available with DNG. Both DNG and PEF store the RAW, unprocessed sensor data.

Most of the in-camera image settings (white balance, color processing, sharpness, contrast, etc.) have absolutely no effect on the RAW sensor data stored in a PEF or DNG file. However, those in-camera image settings are used to create any JPEG image associated with the picture such as the thumbnail and the JPG twin if you use RAW+JPG. Moreover, the in-camera image settings are stored in the EXIF data. Many viewing and editing programs will use those in-camera image settings if the program knows how to unpack the RAW file. To unpack the file, your software needs updated code or configuration files to know how to handle your camera's files. Different software makers are better (or worse) at creating updates for every new camera model and sometimes users don't update their software often enough.


Note: You will never ever actually see the RAW file outside of some very technical image data processing programs. If you actually tried to look at the RAW data, it would be very muted, very green, and composed of a checkboard pattern of black-to-red, black-to-blue, and black-to-green speckles. Moreover, unless you had a 14-bit per color channel monitor, any viewing of the RAW file would required a contrast adjustment that pulls up the shadows and would make the image look even more muted.

Under almost all circumstances, viewing a RAW file requires processing the RAW pixels into something the monitor can display and which corrects for technical peculiarities of the camera sensor. Thus, viewing a RAW file entails interpreting the colors which requires using at least some of the data in EXIF.

Thanks for the info.
I will try some different settings and see what happens.
I will take a look at what EXIF info is carried over.
Thanks again.

[StiffLegged]

... Where are the defaults that you changed to "no". In the camera settings or in the PE programme?

They're in Adobe Camera RAW, as supplied with Photoshop.

[chd]

I switched from using PEF to using DNG quite a while ago, mostly because it's more standardized and likely to be supported longer. Other than somewhat theoretical concerns like that though, either should work equally well.

[Lowell Goudge]

I will throw in my $0.02 into this with a different approach. Note i am a jpeg shooter but…..

If your photo editor uses camera settings as the first pass on the raw import ( using DNG) and these settings are close to your liking, why not stay with that, sure you might still do some tweaks, but unless you build the exact same settings as a processing from the base raw files, to me it seems you would save a lot of time by starting from the camera jpeg settings. Note that as you are using DNG you could still start from scratch if you really screw up the settings, but most of the time working and thinking about your jpeg settings as you shoot will save a tone of time later

[Retro Snapper]

Thank you every one who has commented. These questions always spark some debate, suggesting there is never one correct answer. I shall continue to experiment with jpeg, pef and dng files to see which suits me best.
I am trying to learn about post processing with the free photoshop express before I take the plunge and pay for lightroom.
Thanks again everyone.

[35mmfilmfan]

I use DNG from my K3 and K20. I use FastStone (free), Irfanview (free) and sometimes XnView (also free), although that converts to RBG with 8 bits per channel. The adjustments can be used to give some interesting, even bizarre, effects, including Faux-Infra-Red.

[kypfer]

Thank you every one who has commented. These questions always spark some debate, suggesting there is never one correct answer. I shall continue to experiment with jpeg, pef and dng files to see which suits me best.
I am trying to learn about post processing with the free photoshop express before I take the plunge and pay for lightroom.
Thanks again everyone.

If you want to experiment with post-processing at no cost do try the Pentax Digital Camera Utility.
The version 4 that came with the K-7 is a little dated now, but it's not difficult to update to the latest version v5.9.4 and take full advantage of software that knows all there is to know about your camera
The learning curve can be a little bit "different" and it's a bit quirky or cryptic in places, but it's a perfectly adequate piece of software if you spend a little time with it … it's even got a "faux infra-red" setting

[cyclone3d]

Thank you every one who has commented. These questions always spark some debate, suggesting there is never one correct answer. I shall continue to experiment with jpeg, pef and dng files to see which suits me best.
I am trying to learn about post processing with the free photoshop express before I take the plunge and pay for lightroom.
Thanks again everyone.

You should look into Serif's Affinity Photo instead of getting sucked into a subscription based program.
I've been using it since the initial release for Windows.
Before that it was Apple only.
It can do everything that Lightroom can do and I like it better than Lightroom.

And it is only $55 for Windows or Mac and $20 for iPad. This is with updates until the next major version (2). When I originally bought it when it was first released, I am pretty sure it included updates with no limitations.

Affinity ? Professional Creative Software

The word, "raw" is not an acronym, it's a descriptive adjective. Regardless of where the data comes from, "raw data" is unprocessed ("uncooked") data just as it comes from the source (which could be a phone call, a satellite transmission, or a DSLR sensor).

[photoptimist]

The word, "raw" is not an acronym, it's a descriptive adjective. Regardless of where the data comes from, "raw data" is unprocessed ("uncooked") data just as it comes from the source (which could be a phone call, a satellite transmission, or a DSLR sensor).

RAW = Requiring Algorithmic Wrangling