Pentax K1-1 Battery Status Error

**UncleVanya** · 10-20-2022, 11:29 AM

Those old cells if no longer good could be rebuilt.

Pentax D-LI90 Low Temperature Cell Replacement? - LA2YUA

RogerFastlane · 10-21-2022, 03:26 AM - **1 Like**

Originally posted by mikesbike

I have not measured, and just my impression, but my much newer K-1 II with its new battery, or an older substitute, seems to run low quicker than does my K-5 IIs with a contemporary older battery. I've just taken for granted, the larger, more complex camera taking a bit more juice, but it still goes a good length before needing a battery change- far longer than the KP or K-S2 cameras using the smaller D-Li109 type of battery. No complaints from me about this. I view both concepts in a positive way, each having advantages.

I definitely do not have the problems described by the OP. Should be interesting to see what the resolution turns out to be.

AFIK the K1 II is little changed to the K1-1 although some physical hardware differences as you have to return your -1 body to Pentax if you want to upgrade - so more than just firmware.
Pundits suggested the K1-1 was better at some tasks than other so after some consideration of what I really wanted to achieve with a modern FF went for this (at much reduced cost as well compared to the II)) and until now not disappointed.
V.old K5 batteries now showing 8.25v after a day on the new charger as opposed to ~7.2v after several days on the old one and indicating 100% in the K1 body, so old battery chemistry and maybe not so great old charger????? New battery still "on it's way" so hope to nail this soon. Good to take the K1 out yesterday for 30 odd frames on a quick walk and battery still OK, so all improving now. Not noticed a big difference with in-camera self discharge between the K1-1 and the old K5 , but not really thought about it before. So long as I can leave a week or two and still not see a drop from a nominal 100% all quite good enough for my usage.

Not a Number · 10-21-2022, 07:44 PM

Originally posted by UncleVanya

Those old cells if no longer good could be rebuilt.

Not as simple as it is made out to be. The main danger is in spot welding the the connectors. Rupture the cell and you could have a fire. Lithium battery fires cannot be extinguished and the smoke is highly toxic. Another problem cropping up are some manufacturers are blocking the battery management systems. The battery management system is the controller circuit that mediates prevents overcharging and other functions. The BMS self-destructs after a set number of charge cycles or some other criteria. So far RIcoh/Pentax hasn't put blocking in their BMS but that could always change.

Linus Tech did a video on battery pack rebuilding and illustrates what happens when it goes wrong as well as BMS blocking. Go to around 9:28 into the video to see a spot welding mishap. Of course your results will vary depending on the quality of the equipment and experience/expertise in spot welding.

You Tube

**UncleVanya** · 10-21-2022, 08:45 PM

Originally posted by Not a Number

Not as simple as it is made out to be. The main danger is in spot welding the the connectors. Rupture the cell and you could have a fire. Lithium battery fires cannot be extinguished and the smoke is highly toxic. Another problem cropping up are some manufacturers are blocking the battery management systems. The battery management system is the controller circuit that mediates prevents overcharging and other functions. The BMS self-destructs after a set number of charge cycles or some other criteria. So far RIcoh/Pentax hasn't put blocking in their BMS but that could always change.

Linus Tech did a video on battery pack rebuilding and illustrates what happens when it goes wrong as well as BMS blocking. Go to around 9:28 into the video to see a spot welding mishap. Of course your results will vary depending on the quality of the equipment and experience/expertise in spot welding.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mkum7G-0vWg

Excellent points.

RogerFastlane · 10-24-2022, 03:00 AM

Originally posted by UncleVanya

Voltage without load isn’t a great metric of battery health/charge, but the ones not reading 8.2v seem like they are severely worn out. Even 8.23v seems a bit low based on this:

Some Pentax D-LI90 Battery Charge/Discharge Measurements - PentaxForums.com

New (clone) 2200mAh battery on new charger (after a few charge cycles) is showing 8.32v. Older batteries are showing ca 8.2v after similar charge cycles and a few days on the shelf using the new charger. All batteries are now showing OK 100% charge in the K1. Without building load test circuits and monitoring discharge rates and onload terminal volts, off-load terminal voltages are the only metrics simply available. Although older batteries may not provide the max No of image captures due to loss of capacity, these seem fine for day to day use where I do not need to change them for ~1 month or more. When expecting to do a specific shoot I would take a few fully charged spares anyway. As per my OP - the issue I had was the lower status shown on the K1 compared to the K5 with the batteries charged to whatever max volts they could retain and this still seems to be the issue. The K5 will show 100% with battery volts (off load) down to ca 8v or less while the K1 seems to need ca 8.2v to show 100%. Possibly, this reflects a higher operating current on the K1, so Pentax set the last segment to trigger at a higher voltage so show that this was needed for max target frame count? Meanwhile, I do suspect my old K5 charger may not be delivering the top-off charge required to achieve this (although the same model No). may tinker with a few wires and monitor actual charge voltages on both when I get the time.

BTW I was involved in some early FMCG built in battery charging investigations using coulomb counter circuits and when set-up properly these know the LiIon battery status through actual discharge and charge current measurements. However, as replaceable batteries all undergo different conditions this makes "normal" chargers incapable of accurate charging - the only way these can work properly is to have short disconnections and load application to determine where on the charge curve the cells have got-to. A tricky problem requiring much more sophisticated charging methods than in the std Pentax charger.

**UncleVanya** · 10-24-2022, 04:37 AM

Sounds like you’re in better shape than before. I am glad the charger has resolved the basic issue. For storage, 40%- 60% capacity gives less loss of capacity over time than keeping bells fully charged or discharged.

**mlag** · 10-24-2022, 01:09 PM

Originally posted by RogerFastlane

I swapped for the new K1 charger rather than my old K5 unit (same model charger) and the genuine original battery now shows full charge again in the K1. Is this repeated charge (this is the 4th time I have recharged in the last few days) that has caused the battery chemistry to pick up, or is the old charger perhaps not so quite pokey enough? Even my older batteries now seem to be over 8.2v (and increasing) so maybe all just a matter of low usage and sluggish battery chemistry? New battery not yet here but will post results with a brand new unit charged in a brand new charger. Good to have at least 2 batteries with a full charge status so I can wander off and use the camera without cut-out worries.
As the K5 showed 100% charge even with depressed battery voltages it seems that this camera has a different (lower) reference comparator voltage for the status indicator 100% status.

Compare voltage of both chargers?

Repeated charging helps, but not or less on a worn battery, only on a reasonable battery discharged to 0% (self-discharge or camera left on)

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10-20-2022, 11:29 AM	#16
UncleVanya Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Jul 2014 Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 28,458	Those old cells if no longer good could be rebuilt. Pentax D-LI90 Low Temperature Cell Replacement? - LA2YUA

10-21-2022, 03:26 AM - 1 Like	#17
RogerFastlane Junior Member Join Date: Oct 2022 Location: Dorset UK Posts: 26 Original Poster	Originally posted by mikesbike I have not measured, and just my impression, but my much newer K-1 II with its new battery, or an older substitute, seems to run low quicker than does my K-5 IIs with a contemporary older battery. I've just taken for granted, the larger, more complex camera taking a bit more juice, but it still goes a good length before needing a battery change- far longer than the KP or K-S2 cameras using the smaller D-Li109 type of battery. No complaints from me about this. I view both concepts in a positive way, each having advantages. I definitely do not have the problems described by the OP. Should be interesting to see what the resolution turns out to be. AFIK the K1 II is little changed to the K1-1 although some physical hardware differences as you have to return your -1 body to Pentax if you want to upgrade - so more than just firmware. Pundits suggested the K1-1 was better at some tasks than other so after some consideration of what I really wanted to achieve with a modern FF went for this (at much reduced cost as well compared to the II)) and until now not disappointed. V.old K5 batteries now showing 8.25v after a day on the new charger as opposed to ~7.2v after several days on the old one and indicating 100% in the K1 body, so old battery chemistry and maybe not so great old charger????? New battery still "on it's way" so hope to nail this soon. Good to take the K1 out yesterday for 30 odd frames on a quick walk and battery still OK, so all improving now. Not noticed a big difference with in-camera self discharge between the K1-1 and the old K5 , but not really thought about it before. So long as I can leave a week or two and still not see a drop from a nominal 100% all quite good enough for my usage.

10-21-2022, 08:45 PM	#19
UncleVanya Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Jul 2014 Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 28,458	Originally posted by Not a Number Not as simple as it is made out to be. The main danger is in spot welding the the connectors. Rupture the cell and you could have a fire. Lithium battery fires cannot be extinguished and the smoke is highly toxic. Another problem cropping up are some manufacturers are blocking the battery management systems. The battery management system is the controller circuit that mediates prevents overcharging and other functions. The BMS self-destructs after a set number of charge cycles or some other criteria. So far RIcoh/Pentax hasn't put blocking in their BMS but that could always change. Linus Tech did a video on battery pack rebuilding and illustrates what happens when it goes wrong as well as BMS blocking. Go to around 9:28 into the video to see a spot welding mishap. Of course your results will vary depending on the quality of the equipment and experience/expertise in spot welding. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mkum7G-0vWg Excellent points.

10-24-2022, 03:00 AM	#20
RogerFastlane Junior Member Join Date: Oct 2022 Location: Dorset UK Posts: 26 Original Poster	Originally posted by UncleVanya Voltage without load isn’t a great metric of battery health/charge, but the ones not reading 8.2v seem like they are severely worn out. Even 8.23v seems a bit low based on this: Some Pentax D-LI90 Battery Charge/Discharge Measurements - PentaxForums.com New (clone) 2200mAh battery on new charger (after a few charge cycles) is showing 8.32v. Older batteries are showing ca 8.2v after similar charge cycles and a few days on the shelf using the new charger. All batteries are now showing OK 100% charge in the K1. Without building load test circuits and monitoring discharge rates and onload terminal volts, off-load terminal voltages are the only metrics simply available. Although older batteries may not provide the max No of image captures due to loss of capacity, these seem fine for day to day use where I do not need to change them for ~1 month or more. When expecting to do a specific shoot I would take a few fully charged spares anyway. As per my OP - the issue I had was the lower status shown on the K1 compared to the K5 with the batteries charged to whatever max volts they could retain and this still seems to be the issue. The K5 will show 100% with battery volts (off load) down to ca 8v or less while the K1 seems to need ca 8.2v to show 100%. Possibly, this reflects a higher operating current on the K1, so Pentax set the last segment to trigger at a higher voltage so show that this was needed for max target frame count? Meanwhile, I do suspect my old K5 charger may not be delivering the top-off charge required to achieve this (although the same model No). may tinker with a few wires and monitor actual charge voltages on both when I get the time. BTW I was involved in some early FMCG built in battery charging investigations using coulomb counter circuits and when set-up properly these know the LiIon battery status through actual discharge and charge current measurements. However, as replaceable batteries all undergo different conditions this makes "normal" chargers incapable of accurate charging - the only way these can work properly is to have short disconnections and load application to determine where on the charge curve the cells have got-to. A tricky problem requiring much more sophisticated charging methods than in the std Pentax charger.

10-24-2022, 04:37 AM	#21
UncleVanya Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Jul 2014 Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 28,458	Sounds like you’re in better shape than before. I am glad the charger has resolved the basic issue. For storage, 40%- 60% capacity gives less loss of capacity over time than keeping bells fully charged or discharged.

10-24-2022, 01:09 PM	#22
mlag Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Jul 2021 Location: Zuiderkempen - Grote Netewoud - Belgium Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 1,410	Originally posted by RogerFastlane I swapped for the new K1 charger rather than my old K5 unit (same model charger) and the genuine original battery now shows full charge again in the K1. Is this repeated charge (this is the 4th time I have recharged in the last few days) that has caused the battery chemistry to pick up, or is the old charger perhaps not so quite pokey enough? Even my older batteries now seem to be over 8.2v (and increasing) so maybe all just a matter of low usage and sluggish battery chemistry? New battery not yet here but will post results with a brand new unit charged in a brand new charger. Good to have at least 2 batteries with a full charge status so I can wander off and use the camera without cut-out worries. As the K5 showed 100% charge even with depressed battery voltages it seems that this camera has a different (lower) reference comparator voltage for the status indicator 100% status. Compare voltage of both chargers? Repeated charging helps, but not or less on a worn battery, only on a reasonable battery discharged to 0% (self-discharge or camera left on)