Forgot Password
Pentax Camera Forums Home
 

Reply
Show Printable Version Search this Thread
01-03-2023, 09:35 PM   #16
Veteran Member




Join Date: Dec 2016
Location: Southeastern Michigan
Posts: 4,491
While I see a lot of good analysis and suggestions here, and some are more acquainted with colors that are difficult to reproduce than I am, what I do observe is a problem with unusual lighting of subject matter, and inadequate settings and methodology in dealing with this situation.

First off, since using Manual mode, I would not use exposure comp here, but would look to optimum metering. There is a large discrepancy between the light/dark areas of what is in the frame. The whole thing looks rather dark. I am rather surprised, in fact, that the patterned metering with all that darkness in areas surrounding your main subject matter, and your setting +3 compensation, that the metering used did not blow out the much lighter flowers. The meter would try to accommodate all light/dark areas, even the very dark areas, thus making the light areas too light! As it turned out, your main subjects of interest are still too dark- if the clothing you are showing as reference is the goal. The reason that clothing turned out so well, using this metering, is due to a much brighter scene, and more even lighting and a more even light/dark balance of subject matter in the frame. Your second flower effort is much better, due to your using a longer lens so more of the frame is occupied by the lighter main subject, and also your use of fill flash, which provides much needed additional lighting.

What you have here appears to be much darkness in the immediate environment that contains your main subject. Yet you are using only ISO 100, which produces only an inadequate 1/60 sec shutter speed, and while using a telephoto FL. Have you ever practiced spot metering? This of course, has to be done under the exact lighting that is falling upon your main subject. You need, of course, to switch to spot metering and then take readings off of a mid-tone surface being hit by the same lighting that is hitting your main subject. If you say your main subjects here are light blue like that clothing, you need to find something you can place by your main subjects at the same angle so the same lighting can fall on it, which itself is mid-tone, and will thus be a bit darker than the main subjects here, if they are the lightness of that blue clothing. Someone suggested 18% grey card. Not a bad idea if you can get it where it will be under the same lighting and same angle. Otherwise, find some surface under that same lighting that is about the same tone as that grey card, and is located under the same lighting. It can be tan or even green. Increase ISO to provide a good shutter speed for the lighting.

Using the Manual mode, and switching to MF because you don't need the camera to try focusing on a blank wall so to speak, point your camera's spot meter at that surface and hit the green button to activate Hyper Manual operation, to get an instant exposure reading/setting to occur. Then hit your AE-L button to lock exposure value, and reset f/8 by using your thumb dial if the aperture has changed. The shutter speed should then change also to preserve your newly-set exposure value. Now change back to AF and try your shot without fill flash first. You might need to alter exposure a bit (change shutter speed if f/8 is what you want), since the mid-tone surface chosen for your metering is only approximate to what is ideal. Once you locate a good mid-tone reference to meter from in your scene, this whole process is much quicker than it seems by these descriptions. Using the exclusive Pentax Hyper Manual Mode System with the green button is much quicker than using the standard Manual mode of other makes to spot meter.

Use of fill-flash is more appropriate if the overall scene itself is quite dark, or if your subject is against a much brighter background and would thus turn out too dark under ordinary auto-metering. You would meter for correct background exposure (which again may be by using a mid-tone), and use fill-flash to illuminate your subject, adjusting +/- output of flash as needed.


Last edited by mikesbike; 01-03-2023 at 10:02 PM.
01-04-2023, 01:17 AM   #17
Loyal Site Supporter
Loyal Site Supporter




Join Date: Jul 2012
Photos: Gallery | Albums
Posts: 21,176
Original Poster
QuoteOriginally posted by UncleVanya Quote
Tony this image used a manual white balance. Have you tried the same on the Pentax? Also this is a manual exposure. Have you tried a similar exposure on the Pentax?
As indicated in the EXIF Data for all of the Pentax images, the only difference is the Auto White Balance. I did use Manual White Balance on a few of the Pentax images, however, they definitely were not keepers.

Thanks Uncle, good to hear from you again. BTW I failed to mention that other than resizing, this Canon image is SOOC. )

Cheers and Happy New Year.

Tonytee.

---------- Post added 01-04-23 at 01:30 AM ----------

Truthfully, I genuinely appreciate all of the awesome information made available to me in this project. However, judging from the results realized with the use of the Canon gear, I tend to

believe it is an issue of Old Technology versus Newer Technology.

Once again, I do hope everyone will accept my deep appreciation for the amazing willingness to be of assistance.

Tonytee. )
01-04-2023, 02:55 AM   #18
Moderator
Loyal Site Supporter
Loyal Site Supporter
pschlute's Avatar

Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Surrey, UK
Photos: Gallery
Posts: 7,986
QuoteOriginally posted by Tonytee Quote
These are RAW Files.
A small point, but an important one. You cannot upload raw files as picture images. You are uploading JPEG picture files.

Are you uploading a JPEG after you have converted the raw file and saved it as a JPEG ?
01-04-2023, 04:51 AM   #19
Pentaxian




Join Date: Nov 2018
Photos: Gallery
Posts: 570
You are comparing apples and oranges, not old and new techonolgy. You have used manual white balance and spot metering in the Canon shot vs auto white balance and pattern metering in the Pentax shots. As a result I am not at all surprised that you got very different results.


You say you didn't get a good result with setting a manual white balance on your K-7, what method did you use to set a custom manual white balance? Are you confusing this with using a fixed white balance setting e.g. flash, daylight etc?

01-04-2023, 05:46 AM   #20
Loyal Site Supporter
Loyal Site Supporter
UncleVanya's Avatar

Join Date: Jul 2014
Photos: Gallery | Albums
Posts: 27,930
I remember having a really difficult time getting red flowers to render correctly on my k-50. The k-3 was a little better, The KP is better still. The k100d super if I recall was as good or better. (That last camera is a ccd sensor). But default rendering can be altered. If you post a Dropbox raw image or two e might be able to give you additional specific advice on tuning the output if thatís of interest.
01-04-2023, 09:29 AM   #21
Moderator
Loyal Site Supporter
Loyal Site Supporter
OrchidJulie's Avatar

Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Magic City
Photos: Gallery | Albums
Posts: 6,708
You're welcome, Tony. Glad to participate. Re white balance, several members have suggested this, I heartily second it...put something white in the frame, a small piece of white paper will do. You can clone or crop it out later. I found this very helpful in managing color, I used to keep a slip of white paper taped to my background and moved it into frame as appropriate. It was nothing exotic, just a piece of ordinary white copy paper, couple of inches square (more or less )
01-04-2023, 10:34 AM   #22
Site Supporter
Site Supporter
Just1MoreDave's Avatar

Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Aurora, CO
Photos: Gallery | Albums
Posts: 6,326
QuoteOriginally posted by Tonytee Quote
Okay, many thanks for all the helpful hints, suggestions and instructions. After carefully following every instruction, this is the best I could come up with. Please see the

EXIF Data below the image. Another observation: After each snap, the flowers show up perfectly in Light Blue on the rear screen however, they show up purple when

uploaded. ???
The image that shows up on the camera's rear screen is a small JPG thumbnail, processed in the camera with whatever your JPG settings are. This happens even if you use RAW - as others have said, RAW has to be processed somehow to get an image that you can display.

How will this help you? You just have to process your RAW file exactly as the camera did. The best way to do that is using the Pentax DCU software. If I remember correctly, the software will open your RAW file and apply the same JPG settings to it, just like your camera did to show the rear screen image. If that does not work, you have to see what the camera settings are and change the software to match.

You don't have to use the Pentax DCU software to get these results every time. You just have to adjust whatever software you have, so the displays match. Open a file in DCU, open the same file in the other software, change settings until they match. Software makers are often not that interested in supporting Pentax beyond opening the file and getting something on the screen. That explains why your Canon test works, because they do support many Canon JPG settings. Your software may treat a Canon RAW file just like the Pentax DCU understands a Pentax RAW file.

01-04-2023, 03:34 PM - 1 Like   #23
Loyal Site Supporter
Loyal Site Supporter




Join Date: Jul 2012
Photos: Gallery | Albums
Posts: 21,176
Original Poster
Okay, I can see I need to share my perspective on what I am inclined to do. I have problems with Pentax gear in accurately reproducing red roses and now African Violets. Being a 99% Floral

Photog., I am not interested in jumping through a million step process for one or two flowers with Pentax when I can get the results I need in a couple of minutes or less with other gear. Now at

this juncture, I would like very much to thank everyone again and hopefully be able to close this thread.

Best regards, Tonytee. )
01-04-2023, 05:53 PM   #24
Veteran Member




Join Date: Dec 2016
Location: Southeastern Michigan
Posts: 4,491
Just so you know, what I described and this method I sometimes use, is usually SOOC. Good luck in your future efforts.
01-04-2023, 07:25 PM   #25
Otis Memorial Pentaxian
Otis FanOtis FanOtis FanOtis FanOtis FanOtis Fan
Loyal Site Supporter
clackers's Avatar

Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Melbourne
Photos: Albums
Posts: 16,393
Yeah, so you need to shoot one of the frames with a white balance card in it, Tony!

When you do your post processing, using the eye dropper on the 18% grey bit in that will give you the correct temperature and tint.
01-04-2023, 07:44 PM - 1 Like   #26
Loyal Site Supporter
Loyal Site Supporter




Join Date: Jul 2012
Photos: Gallery | Albums
Posts: 21,176
Original Poster
QuoteOriginally posted by mikesbike Quote
Just so you know, what I described and this method I sometimes use, is usually SOOC. Good luck in your future efforts.
mikesbike, I really do appreciate your skillset and willingness to share.


Muchas Gracias, Senor. )

Tonytee

---------- Post added 01-04-23 at 07:46 PM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by clackers Quote
Yeah, so you need to shoot one of the frames with a white balance card in it, Tony!

When you do your post processing, using the eye dropper on the 18% grey bit in that will give you the correct temperature and tint.

Alrighty then, will do sir and many thanks for your input.

Cheers mate,

Tonytee. )
01-05-2023, 07:29 PM - 1 Like   #27
Veteran Member




Join Date: Dec 2016
Location: Southeastern Michigan
Posts: 4,491
You're welcome. Just as for insight and advancing your comprehension of what the camera's meter is doing and how it can be fooled under which situations, it is really a good practice to sometimes doing shooting in Manual, and do some spot-meter readings of a scene (looking for a mid-tone area to meter off of, etc.) and set your own exposure parameters. Then you can ignore the meter's warnings when you move the camera somewhat, as your exposure has already been optimized for your main subject. You will thereby learn to recognize when tricky lighting is present, and how to deal with it. Practice makes perfect!

Color temperature can shift depending on the time of day if outdoors, which will alter the color of your subjects as well. If indoors, more will depend on color temperature from the specific type of artificial lighting.
01-05-2023, 08:53 PM   #28
Loyal Site Supporter
Loyal Site Supporter




Join Date: Jul 2012
Photos: Gallery | Albums
Posts: 21,176
Original Poster
QuoteOriginally posted by mikesbike Quote
You're welcome. Just as for insight and advancing your comprehension of what the camera's meter is doing and how it can be fooled under which situations, it is really a good practice to sometimes doing shooting in Manual, and do some spot-meter readings of a scene (looking for a mid-tone area to meter off of, etc.) and set your own exposure parameters. Then you can ignore the meter's warnings when you move the camera somewhat, as your exposure has already been optimized for your main subject. You will thereby learn to recognize when tricky lighting is present, and how to deal with it. Practice makes perfect!

Color temperature can shift depending on the time of day if outdoors, which will alter the color of your subjects as well. If indoors, more will depend on color temperature from the specific type of artificial lighting.

Okay, yesterday I decided to give another go. Couldn't help myself. I felt like Al Pacino in Godfather III, "Just when I thought I was out, they pull me back in."

Used the k-7 with the Samyang 135mm 2.8 Macro lens with tripod and built-in flash. A little better results, but not what I am shooting for. Today, I decided to try again, same

set up only propped the desk lamp up on supports and took a few more shots. Not too bad, now I have discovered another problem. The focusing is inconsistent, either

very sharp or very soft. I only shoot when the In-Focus indicator tells me, "All Clear, good to go." I wonder if it is time to get this gear tuned up. I mean the softness is

really bad. I will upload the one I took yesterday in a minute. Thanks again, Tony. P.S. Yes, I used the self-timer.

---------- Post added 01-05-23 at 09:02 PM ----------

Please see EXIF Data below image. Thnx.



Camera Make PENTAX
Camera Model PENTAX K-7
Date Taken 2023-01-04 09:24 PM
Resolution 1002 x 750 pixels
Flash Used Yes (manual)
Focal Length 135.0mm (35mm equivalent: 202mm)
Exposure Time 1/60s (0.017)
Aperture F/8.0
ISO Equivalent 100
White Balance Auto
Metering Mode Spot
Exposure Manual
Exposure Mode Manual
Focus Range Distant
JPEG Quality 98
Lens ID A Series Lens

Last edited by Tonytee; 01-05-2023 at 09:03 PM.
01-06-2023, 07:30 PM   #29
Veteran Member




Join Date: Dec 2016
Location: Southeastern Michigan
Posts: 4,491
You will notice upon careful scrutiny, not everything is soft, there are some shop edges. This is because sharpness of every part in the frame is more difficult to attain when shooting with a telephoto lens- or with closeups! The closer you get, so your depth-of-field (DOF) gets shallower. That is, how much in your scene, including background and foreground, will appear sharp. Controlling DOF is one important aspect of the aperture chosen. The smaller the aperture (larger number), the larger the DOF. While f/8 is good enough for most scenes in establishing a sizable DOF, it is often inadequate when doing closeups. You might need f/11 or smaller. Of course, this will then compromise the shutter speed choices.

A lare DOF is not always the goal. Sometimes establishing sharpness only or mainly on a particular spot, can sometimes make for a more interesting result.

Using flash, if done at all, has to be done with particular care with closeup work. Best to use natural lighting a much as possible, then only if needed, a small pop of fill. Flash tends to wash out detail, reduce 3-D effects, and obscure texture.

Last edited by mikesbike; 01-06-2023 at 07:47 PM.
Reply

Bookmarks
  • Submit Thread to Facebook Facebook
  • Submit Thread to Twitter Twitter
  • Submit Thread to Digg Digg
Tags - Make this thread easier to find by adding keywords to it!
camera, canon, color, color reproduction, data, equivalent, exif, exposure, flowers, image, images, light, mode, orchid, pentax, pentax help, photography, pm, post, problem, record, reproduction, sensors, thanks, tonytee, troubleshooting
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Still Life Well color me, "MULTI". A Photo Reproduction. Tonytee Post Your Photos! 6 07-16-2022 01:25 PM
Night A Photo Reproduction Of An Awesome Still Life. :)) Tonytee Post Your Photos! 2 12-06-2021 08:29 PM
Photo District News puts K-1 at #6 for color reproduction. superpowerpinger Pentax K-1 & K-1 II 12 01-07-2019 04:46 AM
How do you shoot red and get an accurate color rendition? amc654 Photographic Technique 9 01-22-2012 01:00 PM



All times are GMT -7. The time now is 12:33 AM. | See also: NikonForums.com, CanonForums.com part of our network of photo forums!
  • Red (Default)
  • Green
  • Gray
  • Dark
  • Dark Yellow
  • Dark Blue
  • Old Red
  • Old Green
  • Old Gray
  • Dial-Up Style
Hello! It's great to see you back on the forum! Have you considered joining the community?
register
Creating a FREE ACCOUNT takes under a minute, removes ads, and lets you post! [Dismiss]
Top