Strugling with wb in underwater shots

**SunValley** · 01-09-2023, 06:53 PM - **1 Like**

Well this was my first time shooting underwater and I should have looked ahead a bit more I suppose. I didn't expect the red channel to disappear like that! And I used a Ricoh WG-70 belonging to my daughter so I was not familiar with the settings and saw afterward that there is a underwater wb after all (I guess it figures for such a camera). To add to the difficulty I use PSE 2020, not the full PS, and the Ricoh only shoots jpg. In the first image, the histogram still shows a weak, bell shaped signal in the red channel so I managed to do something with "Levels". But on the second image the histogram shows the red channel as a thin line on the 0 mark, so nothing at all to work with in Levels.

I managed to "recreate" a red signal by applying a deep red photo filter (Layer --> New Adjustment Layer --> Photo Filter). It's quick but not looking so good. So:

1- Does anybody know a way to improve my images

2- Next time I go, will in camera underwater wb will help if there is no red at all?

**Clarkey** · 01-09-2023, 07:37 PM - **1 Like**

Hello there. I can't comment on the UW white balance, but it will likely try and do what you have done here. At the end of the day, red wavelengths are very quickly filtered out as you descend through the water.
Off-camera flash and raw work the best, but you are absolutely on the right track with correcting the white balance first (the white or black on the fins will likely work well), then adding a red layer as an overlay, and blending down as 50% grey, then tweaking.

Another more recent method is here.
One tutorial here.

It'd been quite some time since I have done the blend technique, but it can have good results (4mp camera, JPG inside a cheap plastic housing).

Hiwihiwi by Aaron, on Flickr

French grunt and snapper by Aaron, on Flickr

Hopefully this is helpful.

tuco · 01-09-2023, 08:20 PM - **1 Like**

I can't this is any better. But if you have some white or black in the scene you and use that to help do a custom WB. I used the first image with the heavy color cast and assumed the swimmer has black hair and trunks. I first used the white balance selector on the black hair to get thinks in the ball park.

Then, while looking at the RGB values in the trunks, hair and snorkel tip, I used the curves adjustment tool to individually tweak the red, green and blue channels trying to bring R=G=B to a close match.

**DWS1** · 01-09-2023, 08:38 PM

Water absorbs red light wavelengths and reflects blue light wavelengths. That's why the sky appears blue. 75% of the earth's surface is water and absorbs red light. Then reflects blue light back into the atmosphere where it is reflected off water molecules (and other particles) in the atmosphere back to the earth. Hence the sky is blue.

As far as your issue, it is definitely a WB issue. Since shooting raw with the WG-70 is not possible, post processing correction is very difficult. Not impossible, but difficult. With the camera having an underwater WB option, I assume Rioch has corrected for this. One might also try a shade or overcast WB or even a fluorescent light WB.

**AstroDave** · 01-09-2023, 10:37 PM - **2 Likes**

Originally posted by DWS1

reflects blue light wavelengths. That's why the sky appears blue

No, No, No, No, a thousand times NO! How would the sky in Kansas (1000 miles from any real water body) be blue?

The sky is blue because the blue light is scattered more than the red light, mostly by the atoms and molecules in the atmosphere (Rayleigh scattering), in all directions, inlcuding towards us.

Also explains why the setting sun gets redder and redder - nearly ALL the blue light coming directly towards us, through a lot of air as the sun gets lower and lower, is scattered out of our line of sight, leaving only red light.

PLEASE, get your science straight!

**sbh** · 01-10-2023, 03:46 AM - **1 Like**

Silkypix developer Studio Pro has dedicated underwater adjustments. Perhaps you can use the trial version. I believe that it is the same engine which the WG cameras use in their underwater setting.

https://silkypix.isl.co.jp/en/

(There is also an iPhone app in case you use one.)

**Lowell Goudge** · 01-10-2023, 05:17 AM

Although I have never tried myself to correct underwater shots, you might try setting white balance using your photo editor and selecting off the white flash on the swim fins, or from the black of the mask or swim trunks.

Once this is done, record the adjustment settings and then use this in the rest of the shots.

Not sure what your photo editor has for tools, but Corel PSP which I use has the tool I described in the white balance adjust menu

Edit note. I missed @tuco’s response.

steephill · 01-10-2023, 07:35 AM

You might be able to fit a filter to help with colour balance, see M A G I C - F I L T E R S for info.

**CristiC** · 01-10-2023, 07:48 AM

I have used Silkypix Developer Studio Pro for underwater pictures as well. I recommend it too.

**MossyRocks** · 01-10-2023, 09:31 AM

I know that RawTherapee has settings for underwater white balance. I've never used them as I don't have the stuff for underwater shooting so I don't know how well it work. However with the current version of RawTherapee the automatic white balance using the RGBGray (I think that is what it is called) seems to work really well. So there is something else you can play with.

**SunValley** · 01-10-2023, 04:18 PM

Originally posted by Clarkey

Off-camera flash and raw work the best,

I didn't think of the internal flash, just might have made the closeups a lot better, thanks for the tip and nice pictures btw, the kind I wish I took!

Originally posted by tuco

But if you have some white or black in the scene you and use that to help do a custom WB

Originally posted by DWS1

One might also try a shade or overcast WB or even a fluorescent light WB.

Originally posted by Lowell Goudge

setting white balance using your photo editor and selecting off the white flash on the swim fins, or from the black of the mask or swim trunks

Thanks for your help guys but it's the first thing that I tried and saw I was in trouble because in the case of the second picture all those tools are going haywire over the empty red channel. A pipette wb on the white of the fins makes the pixels go from 0, 225, 250 to 0, 255, 255 making things worse. Setting a gray (or black or white) point in levels is better but not as much as the red filter adjustment layer.

Originally posted by sbh

Silkypix developer Studio Pro has dedicated underwater adjustments. Perhaps you can use the trial version

Originally posted by CristiC

I have used Silkypix Developer Studio Pro for underwater pictures as well. I recommend it too.

Originally posted by MossyRocks

I know that RawTherapee has settings for underwater white balance.

That is interesting cause I think I still have a Sylkypix cd from the time I bought my K-50 and raw therapee is free. Thanks I'll give that a try when I have the time.

Originally posted by steephill

You might be able to fit a filter to help with colour balance, see M A G I C - F I L T E R S for info.

Oh indeed that is an interesting idea, tackling the issue even before the light hits the sensor. Next time I going in the caribbeans I'll have something like that. Thanks for the info.

01-09-2023, 06:53 PM - 1 Like	#1
SunValley Site Supporter Join Date: Jun 2013 Location: Montreal, Canada Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 574	Strugling with wb in underwater shots Well this was my first time shooting underwater and I should have looked ahead a bit more I suppose. I didn't expect the red channel to disappear like that! And I used a Ricoh WG-70 belonging to my daughter so I was not familiar with the settings and saw afterward that there is a underwater wb after all (I guess it figures for such a camera). To add to the difficulty I use PSE 2020, not the full PS, and the Ricoh only shoots jpg. In the first image, the histogram still shows a weak, bell shaped signal in the red channel so I managed to do something with "Levels". But on the second image the histogram shows the red channel as a thin line on the 0 mark, so nothing at all to work with in Levels. I managed to "recreate" a red signal by applying a deep red photo filter (Layer --> New Adjustment Layer --> Photo Filter). It's quick but not looking so good. So: 1- Does anybody know a way to improve my images 2- Next time I go, will in camera underwater wb will help if there is no red at all?

01-09-2023, 08:20 PM - 1 Like	#3
tuco Pentaxian Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Pugetopolis Posts: 11,032	I can't this is any better. But if you have some white or black in the scene you and use that to help do a custom WB. I used the first image with the heavy color cast and assumed the swimmer has black hair and trunks. I first used the white balance selector on the black hair to get thinks in the ball park. Then, while looking at the RGB values in the trunks, hair and snorkel tip, I used the curves adjustment tool to individually tweak the red, green and blue channels trying to bring R=G=B to a close match. Attached Images

01-10-2023, 03:46 AM - 1 Like	#6
sbh Site Supporter Join Date: Oct 2012 Location: Black Forest, Germany Photos: Gallery Posts: 852	Silkypix developer Studio Pro has dedicated underwater adjustments. Perhaps you can use the trial version. I believe that it is the same engine which the WG cameras use in their underwater setting. https://silkypix.isl.co.jp/en/ (There is also an iPhone app in case you use one.) Attached Images Last edited by sbh; 01-10-2023 at 04:00 AM.

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01-09-2023, 07:37 PM - 1 Like	#2
Clarkey Site Supporter Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Brampton, ON, Canada Photos: Gallery Posts: 2,456	Hello there. I can't comment on the UW white balance, but it will likely try and do what you have done here. At the end of the day, red wavelengths are very quickly filtered out as you descend through the water. Off-camera flash and raw work the best, but you are absolutely on the right track with correcting the white balance first (the white or black on the fins will likely work well), then adding a red layer as an overlay, and blending down as 50% grey, then tweaking. Another more recent method is here. One tutorial here. It'd been quite some time since I have done the blend technique, but it can have good results (4mp camera, JPG inside a cheap plastic housing). Hiwihiwi by Aaron, on Flickr French grunt and snapper by Aaron, on Flickr Hopefully this is helpful.

01-09-2023, 08:38 PM	#4
DWS1 Site Supporter Join Date: Aug 2018 Location: Arkansas, USA Posts: 1,169	Water absorbs red light wavelengths and reflects blue light wavelengths. That's why the sky appears blue. 75% of the earth's surface is water and absorbs red light. Then reflects blue light back into the atmosphere where it is reflected off water molecules (and other particles) in the atmosphere back to the earth. Hence the sky is blue. As far as your issue, it is definitely a WB issue. Since shooting raw with the WG-70 is not possible, post processing correction is very difficult. Not impossible, but difficult. With the camera having an underwater WB option, I assume Rioch has corrected for this. One might also try a shade or overcast WB or even a fluorescent light WB.

01-09-2023, 10:37 PM - 2 Likes	#5
AstroDave Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: May 2007 Location: Flagstaff, Arizona Posts: 1,648	Originally posted by DWS1 reflects blue light wavelengths. That's why the sky appears blue No, No, No, No, a thousand times NO! How would the sky in Kansas (1000 miles from any real water body) be blue? The sky is blue because the blue light is scattered more than the red light, mostly by the atoms and molecules in the atmosphere (Rayleigh scattering), in all directions, inlcuding towards us. Also explains why the setting sun gets redder and redder - nearly ALL the blue light coming directly towards us, through a lot of air as the sun gets lower and lower, is scattered out of our line of sight, leaving only red light. PLEASE, get your science straight!

01-10-2023, 05:17 AM	#7
Lowell Goudge Site Supporter Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Toronto Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 17,892	Although I have never tried myself to correct underwater shots, you might try setting white balance using your photo editor and selecting off the white flash on the swim fins, or from the black of the mask or swim trunks. Once this is done, record the adjustment settings and then use this in the rest of the shots. Not sure what your photo editor has for tools, but Corel PSP which I use has the tool I described in the white balance adjust menu Edit note. I missed @tuco’s response.

01-10-2023, 07:35 AM	#8
steephill Pentaxian Join Date: Nov 2018 Photos: Albums Posts: 591	You might be able to fit a filter to help with colour balance, see M A G I C - F I L T E R S for info.

01-10-2023, 07:48 AM	#9
CristiC Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Nov 2012 Location: Transylvania Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 421	I have used Silkypix Developer Studio Pro for underwater pictures as well. I recommend it too.

01-10-2023, 09:31 AM	#10
MossyRocks Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Nov 2017 Location: Minnesota Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 2,982	I know that RawTherapee has settings for underwater white balance. I've never used them as I don't have the stuff for underwater shooting so I don't know how well it work. However with the current version of RawTherapee the automatic white balance using the RGBGray (I think that is what it is called) seems to work really well. So there is something else you can play with.

01-10-2023, 04:18 PM	#11
SunValley Site Supporter Join Date: Jun 2013 Location: Montreal, Canada Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 574 Original Poster	Originally posted by Clarkey Off-camera flash and raw work the best, I didn't think of the internal flash, just might have made the closeups a lot better, thanks for the tip and nice pictures btw, the kind I wish I took! Originally posted by tuco But if you have some white or black in the scene you and use that to help do a custom WB Originally posted by DWS1 One might also try a shade or overcast WB or even a fluorescent light WB. Originally posted by Lowell Goudge setting white balance using your photo editor and selecting off the white flash on the swim fins, or from the black of the mask or swim trunks Thanks for your help guys but it's the first thing that I tried and saw I was in trouble because in the case of the second picture all those tools are going haywire over the empty red channel. A pipette wb on the white of the fins makes the pixels go from 0, 225, 250 to 0, 255, 255 making things worse. Setting a gray (or black or white) point in levels is better but not as much as the red filter adjustment layer. Originally posted by sbh Silkypix developer Studio Pro has dedicated underwater adjustments. Perhaps you can use the trial version Originally posted by CristiC I have used Silkypix Developer Studio Pro for underwater pictures as well. I recommend it too. Originally posted by MossyRocks I know that RawTherapee has settings for underwater white balance. That is interesting cause I think I still have a Sylkypix cd from the time I bought my K-50 and raw therapee is free. Thanks I'll give that a try when I have the time. Originally posted by steephill You might be able to fit a filter to help with colour balance, see M A G I C - F I L T E R S for info. Oh indeed that is an interesting idea, tackling the issue even before the light hits the sensor. Next time I going in the caribbeans I'll have something like that. Thanks for the info.