[UncleVanya]

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I’ve posted this before… JIS doesn’t exist as a separate standard from PH any more. All Precision PH can be cross type that fit and work in JIS screws correctly. The labeling is quite misleading in the markets today as a result.

3.2. JIS – Japanese standard

Its history explained in chapter 2.2.

It used to be defined by the Japanese JIS B 4633, but in 2008 that standard has been declared obsolete and now it is only defined by ISO 8764-1 PH, and ISO 8764-2 PH. Yes, the same ones used for Phillips screwdrivers!

Source: Phillips, JIS, and Pozidriv screwdrivers explained | BikeGremlin

The source above talks about how to find good drivers and how the labeling is not consistent.

[BigMackCam]

I’ve posted this before… JIS doesn’t exist as a separate standard from PH any more. All Precision PH can be cross type that fit and work in JIS screws correctly. The labeling is quite misleading in the markets today as a result.



Source: Phillips, JIS, and Pozidriv screwdrivers explained | BikeGremlin

The source above talks about how to find good drivers and how the labeling is not consistent.

The way I read that article, it seems as if some PH drivers may work in JIS screws, while JIS drivers will work well in both JIS and PH screws - or am I mis-reading it? Plus, even though the standard for JIS may no longer exist, it seems that buying screwdrivers specifically marketed as JIS could be a safer bet than trawling through numerous precision PH types for those that might work... no?

[UncleVanya]

The way I read that article, it seems as if some PH drivers may work in JIS screws, while JIS drivers will work well in both JIS and PH screws - or am I mis-reading it? Plus, even though the standard for JIS may no longer exist, it seems that buying screwdrivers specifically marketed as JIS could be a safer bet than trawling through numerous precision PH types for those that might work... no?

DIN Standard Precision Phillips screwdrivers are cross point. But identifying them can be tough. JIS labeled screwdrivers are sometimes correctly labeled but not always. I would read reviews.

[photogem]

I’ve posted this before… JIS doesn’t exist as a separate standard from PH any more. All Precision PH can be cross type that fit and work in JIS screws correctly. The labeling is quite misleading in the markets today as a result.



Source: Phillips, JIS, and Pozidriv screwdrivers explained | BikeGremlin

The source above talks about how to find good drivers and how the labeling is not consistent.

And you really mean because one single person located in Novi Sad, Serbia, claims to know everything about JIS and PH this has to be true?

If you just read at 3.2: it says:


Its (JIS) history explained in chapter 2.2.

But in chapter 2.2 there is hardly any history! All you can read there is "something about the year 1958" Amazing history!

Then he continues:

It used to be defined by the Japanese JIS B 4633, but in 2008 that standard has been declared obsolete and now it is only defined by ISO 8764-1 PH, and ISO 8764-2 PH. Yes, the same ones used for Phillips screwdrivers!


Now, from were does he get this information that in 2008 the JIS B4633 Standard was decared obsolete (and by whom???)

It actually is not just ISO 8764-1/2 PH but it is DIN ISO:

DIN stands from "Deutsches Institut für Normung" or as most in the German speaking world call it "Deutsche Industrie Norm"

And DIN ISO stands for the German edition of ISO standards.

DIN ISO 8764-1 PH and

DIN ISO 8764-2 PH


You can study the ISO (i.e. NOT DIN!) 8764-2 in all detail HERE and you won't find anything about a merging of JIS and PH standards there.
and ISO 8764-1 HERE
and you won't find a even the word JIS nor Japanese there once named.

To me, all what this Biker-Gremlin talks about, sounds to me like a lot of invented stuff.

It becomes also clear when you read the posts:
Chris
12/05/2022 at 02:56

I don’t doubt what you are saying, but I took a look at the sources you cited, and I didn’t see anywhere that clearly states that ISO 8764-1 /2 PH:
1) Is commonly known as “Phillips” and that (presumably) “Phillips”-labeled drivers/bits made today usually comply with it and not with the older original Phillips standard
2) Includes/supersedes/obviates/replaces the “JIS” standard (or the “Phillips” one, for that matter)
3) Is physically compatible and designed to work with both legacy/traditional Phillips and legacy/traditional JIS fasteners
Do you know of an official statement/document (other than the non-free ISO 8764 itself) from a standards body, well-known manufacturer of drivers/bits, or other reputable third-party that corroborates these facts?


Answer by

Hi Chris,
Thank you for the feedback and please share the links if you find sources that satisfy your criteria, or manage to get satisfactory official feedback from a tool manufacturer.
I tried consulting local Unior representatives (mechanical engineers) and they were clueless about this problem. I also consulted with a company that sells tools of several different brands to other companies – mechanical engineers there didn’t know the answers. Apart from that, I didn’t find any other tool brand representatives willing to talk in my city or country.
What I do know, from practice, is that most “Phillips” screwdrivers, even when brand new, slip relatively easily out of cross-headed screws on my Yamaha and on Shimano derailleurs, while very few screwdrivers don’t. At the same time, the screwdrivers that work well with JIS screws (Shimano and Japanese motorcycles in particular), don’t slip any easier out of Phillips screws (as far as I could tell – they work better with those too).
This also aligns with the feedback I got from other mechanics.
I put all the knowledge and experience that I have so far into this article (and made the brief video demonstration of the problem). Nothing more, nothing less. When I learn new things and get new information, I update my articles.


I think nothing more needs to be said aside of that everything about JIS being now PH is quite fairytaleish!


What I have found is that my WIHA PH 0, 00 and 000 screwdrivers which are manufactured according to the DIN-ISO standard
are for sure not JIS but just standard PH.

I will see when the WERA 05118022001 arrives because it seems so that aside from Vessel who defined JCIS screwdrivers
and who until recently were the only company offering JCIS 0, 00 and 000 crosshead screwdrivers this then is the ONLY one
being JCIS as well:

Wera PH 0 x 60mm Micro Precision Phillips JCIS Screwdriver 2050 Kraftform Cross PH0
Would be great if it really is JCIS but then I don't understand why they only made the PH0 as JCIS.
PH00 at least would be as important for Japanese Cameras and lenses but my Vessel JCIS 0 fits the tiny JCIS 00 screw of the solenoid as well as the JCIS 00 screwdriver, just that the 150mm length of the 0-sized is more pleasant to work with due to the location fo the screw.



HERE you can study a little bit more about JCIS.
That the JCIS (Japanese Camera Industrial Standard.... in which "screws" are just a very tiniest fraction) was succeeded in 2020 by the CIPA Standards is regarding JIS or JCIS screws absolutly meaningless because they don't even mention screws.

And the very difference between JIS 0 and JCIS 0 HERE on page 5
(Important: This is the new standard since 2020 according JCIS 8-70)

The exact facts about JIS/JCIS you can study here:
CIPA - Camera & Imaging Products Association: CIPA Standards

I can't find there any notion that JIS or JCIS has merged with PH.

This Bikegremilin article is a fantastic example how internet-fairytales arise!

---

Last edited by photogem; 06-05-2023 at 01:20 AM. Reason: added info for difference JIS/JCIS size 0

[UncleVanya]

And you really mean because one single person located in Novi Sad, Serbia, claims to know everything about JIS and PH this has to be true?

If you just read at 3.2: it says:


Its (JIS) history explained in chapter 2.2.

But in chapter 2.2 there is hardly any history! All you can read there is "something about the year 1958" Amazing history!

Then he continues:

It used to be defined by the Japanese JIS B 4633, but in 2008 that standard has been declared obsolete and now it is only defined by ISO 8764-1 PH, and ISO 8764-2 PH. Yes, the same ones used for Phillips screwdrivers!


Now, from were does he get this information that in 2008 the JIS B4633 Standard was decared obsolete (and by whom???)

It actually is not just ISO 8764-1/2 PH but it is DIN ISO:

DIN stands from "Deutsches Institut für Normung" or as most in the German speaking world call it "Deutsche Industrie Norm"

And DIN ISO stands for the German edition of ISO standards.

DIN ISO 8764-1 PH and

DIN ISO 8764-2 PH


You can study the ISO (i.e. NOT DIN!) 8764-2 in all detail HERE and you won't find anything about a merging of JIS and PH standards there.
and ISO 8764-1 HERE
and you won't find a even the word JIS nor Japanese there once named.

To me, all what this Biker-Gremlin talks about, sounds to me like a lot of invented stuff.

It becomes also clear when you read the posts:
Chris
12/05/2022 at 02:56

I don’t doubt what you are saying, but I took a look at the sources you cited, and I didn’t see anywhere that clearly states that ISO 8764-1 /2 PH:
1) Is commonly known as “Phillips” and that (presumably) “Phillips”-labeled drivers/bits made today usually comply with it and not with the older original Phillips standard
2) Includes/supersedes/obviates/replaces the “JIS” standard (or the “Phillips” one, for that matter)
3) Is physically compatible and designed to work with both legacy/traditional Phillips and legacy/traditional JIS fasteners
Do you know of an official statement/document (other than the non-free ISO 8764 itself) from a standards body, well-known manufacturer of drivers/bits, or other reputable third-party that corroborates these facts?


Answer by

Hi Chris,
Thank you for the feedback and please share the links if you find sources that satisfy your criteria, or manage to get satisfactory official feedback from a tool manufacturer.
I tried consulting local Unior representatives (mechanical engineers) and they were clueless about this problem. I also consulted with a company that sells tools of several different brands to other companies – mechanical engineers there didn’t know the answers. Apart from that, I didn’t find any other tool brand representatives willing to talk in my city or country.
What I do know, from practice, is that most “Phillips” screwdrivers, even when brand new, slip relatively easily out of cross-headed screws on my Yamaha and on Shimano derailleurs, while very few screwdrivers don’t. At the same time, the screwdrivers that work well with JIS screws (Shimano and Japanese motorcycles in particular), don’t slip any easier out of Phillips screws (as far as I could tell – they work better with those too).
This also aligns with the feedback I got from other mechanics.
I put all the knowledge and experience that I have so far into this article (and made the brief video demonstration of the problem). Nothing more, nothing less. When I learn new things and get new information, I update my articles.


I think nothing more needs to be said aside of that everything about JIS being now PH is quite fairytaleish!


What I have found is that my WIHA PH 0, 00 and 000 screwdrivers which are manufactured according to the DIN-ISO standard
are for sure not JIS but just standard PH.

I will see when the WERA 05118022001 arrives because it seems so that aside from Vessel who defined JCIS screwdrivers
and who until recently were the only company offering JCIS 0, 00 and 000 crosshead screwdrivers this then is the ONLY one
being JCIS as well:

Wera PH 0 x 60mm Micro Precision Phillips JCIS Screwdriver 2050 Kraftform Cross PH0
Would be great if it really is JCIS but then I don't understand why they only made the PH0 as JCIS.
PH00 at least would be as important for Japanese Cameras and lenses but my Vessel JCIS 0 fits the tiny JCIS 00 screw of the solenoid as well as the JCIS 00 screwdriver, just that the 150mm length of the 0-sized is more pleasant to work with due to the location fo the screw.



HERE you can study a little bit more about JCIS.
That the JCIS (Japanese Camera Industrial Standard.... in which "screws" are just a very tiniest fraction) was succeeded in 2020 by the CIPA Standards is regarding JIS or JCIS screws absolutly meaningless because they don't even mention screws.

And the very difference between JIS 0 and JCIS 0 HERE on page 5
(Important: This is the new standard since 2020 according JCIS 8-70)

The exact facts about JIS/JCIS you can study here:
CIPA - Camera & Imaging Products Association: CIPA Standards

I can't find there any notion that JIS or JCIS has merged with PH.

This Bikegremilin article is a fantastic example how internet-fairytales arise!

To be clear that’s not the only source - but it’s possible other sources are following the same misinformation. I’ll keep looking into it but I will say I wouldn’t expect JIS to be mentioned as it defines the shape not the history. However I will concede it isn’t clear that this article I linked is definitive. Thanks for the efforts to clarify.

---------- Post added 06-05-23 at 09:50 AM ----------

There’s not a lot of direct evidence here but I’m still following the trail:

Phillips vs. JIS (called "plus" in Japanese) vs. DIN 5260-PH/ISO 8763-1 Screwdrivers | The Garage Journal

The important points:

2008 - JIS stopped publishing standards for the screwdrivers but continued to publish standards for screws.

Vessel’s North American distributor had previously claimed they couldn’t label their drivers JIS for the above reason. However this is no longer shown on their website that I can find. There are many sources that wrote the exact language and sources upon sources that state the jis standard for screwdrive was replaced. The standard is both DIN and ISO by the way.

Here’s an article that is from 2016 where the actual bits are compared:
Hozan JIS Screwdrivers Review - webBikeWorld

[photogem]

To be clear that’s not the only source - but it’s possible other sources are following the same misinformation. I’ll keep looking into it but I will say I wouldn’t expect JIS to be mentioned as it defines the shape not the history. However I will concede it isn’t clear that this article I linked is definitive. Thanks for the efforts to clarify.

To make things more complicated:
JIS crosshead screws go back to 1970 but only size 1/2/3/4
Size 0 was introduced later, I think actually 1985

Parallel there was JCIS

Until 1960 there were only JCIS screws (not only crosshead of course) in M2 and larger

It was 1963 that a Japanese camera-manufacturer introduced the smaller M-sizes and it was just one Japanese company manufacturing those screws.
I don't know if it was Asahi, I thought Asahi introduced JCIS screws in 1970 but I could well be wrong.
Very difficult to find out without being able to read Japanese which I don't.


Some information could be found here:
CIPA ????????????????: CIPA???
and particular in the early document:
https://www.cipa.jp/std/documents/j/JCIS_2-63.pdf


But I think what can be read on the bike-gremlin website is sheer nonsense.
JCIS and JIS standards still exist.
Just that we have as well some parallel ISO standards which recommend to take on the JIS and JCIS standards simply because
PH screwdrives won't fit JIS and JCIS crosshead screws
but JIS and JCIS (different!) will not only fit well but even better.

Many DIY workshops for Japanese bikes, motorbikes and cars cursed JIS screws until they found out them not being PH.
From the moment they discovered JIS they were amazed how much better these are. I built my road- and mountainbikes up from scratch myself but then it was allen/hex/inbus. Now having torx, torx-plux etc.

[Jonathan Mac]

The guy in the ironmonger/tool place close to home had never heard of JIS so I've ordered this set from Amazon Spain as it has the broadest range of sizes: VESSEL Juego de destornilladores de precisión TD-56S / +0, 00, 000, 0000, -0.7, -0.9 : Amazon.es: Bricolaje y herramientas

[BigMackCam]

The guy in the ironmonger/tool place close to home had never heard of JIS so I've ordered this set from Amazon Spain as it has the broadest range of sizes: VESSEL Juego de destornilladores de precisión TD-56S / +0, 00, 000, 0000, -0.7, -0.9 : Amazon.es: Bricolaje y herramientas

That's the set I recommended in my original reply... I think you'll be pleased with them. They're decent tools

[gatorguy]

This is the set I use, Jonathan:

Vessel Precision Screwdriver Set TD-56S / +0, 00, 000, 0000, -0.7, -0.9 : Amazon.co.uk: DIY & Tools

Of the various JIS screwdrivers readily available, they're some of the better ones - but still, I've managed to mangle one set already and I'm onto my second. There's only so much torque they can take before the heads become damaged (plus, the shafts on the smaller screwdrivers will bend under force). Threadlocked screws will need unlocking first with a bit of solvent (or other appropriate measures), as force alone will risk damaging the screwdrivers or - worse still - the screws themselves

We're using the same set, but I'm apparently not as demanding of mine. They're still good.
Precision Screwdriver Set Td-56S Vessel Jis Made In Japan 6 Piece Kit | eBay

But I also thought I had seen mention that the ones made for the Japanese market were a better quality than the ones on Amazon? I remember when I went looking for some to repair a couple of my lenses, another discussion I had read pointed me in that direction.

[BigMackCam]

We're using the same set, but I'm apparently not as demanding of mine. They're still good.
Precision Screwdriver Set Td-56S Vessel Jis Made In Japan 6 Piece Kit | eBay

But I also thought I had seen mention that the ones made for the Japanese market were a better quality than the ones on Amazon? I remember when I went looking for some to repair a couple of my lenses, another discussion I had read pointed me in that direction.

Both my sets came from Japan before there was a UK supply source, so I can't say. The ones on Amazon are currently better priced - I definitely remember paying more for mine. I can't think they'd produce a set for the domestic market and a lower quality set for export... that just wouldn't make economic or reputational sense, IMHO. More likely, I think, is that they may have moved to less-expensive materials or production methods to reduce price and make them more competitive.

Honestly, I can't blame the first set I had for becoming slightly mangled. It was my fault, really. At the point where I met too much resistance, I should have stopped and used a different approach... Good as they are, the Vessel screwdrivers in these sizes aren't intended to deal with large amounts of torque. If I'd owned the iFixit set back then, I'd have switched to those and all would have been well. I've had my second Vessel set for years, now, and they're good as new...

[c.a.m]

Honestly, I can't blame the first set I had for becoming slightly mangled. It was my fault, really. At the point where I met too much resistance, I should have stopped and used a different approach...

I've been there. I broke a Moody JIS 00 driver while applying just a bit too much torque. I guess the locking wrench and extension bar were a no-no? (Just kidding -- I'm usually careful with tools, but I just had to release that mounting plate screw -- Pentax-M lens). Actually, I was surprised that the driver shaft sheared with the moderate torque I was applying.

- Craig

[photogem]

To be clear that’s not the only source - but it’s possible other sources are following the same misinformation. I’ll keep looking into it but I will say I wouldn’t expect JIS to be mentioned as it defines the shape not the history. However I will concede it isn’t clear that this article I linked is definitive. Thanks for the efforts to clarify.

There’s not a lot of direct evidence here but I’m still following the trail:

Phillips vs. JIS (called "plus" in Japanese) vs. DIN 5260-PH/ISO 8763-1 Screwdrivers | The Garage Journal

The important points:

2008 - JIS stopped publishing standards for the screwdrivers but continued to publish standards for screws.

This is just one single non verifiable claim by this guy "tanukiboy" from this forum which he claimed in the year 2018.
There is zero evidence for this claim and partly he says things which are not true like this at all:

Tanukiboy:

It appears that many Japanese companies, including Vessel, now manufacture their screwdrivers to conform with DIN 5260-PH/ISO 8763-1 rather than the defunct JIS standard, and that Nepros has decided to not follow any standards and to make its screwdrivers according to its own internal specifications.

Some mistakes and misconceptions within this claim:
a) only some JIS standards became absolete!


b) there is
- DIN 5260-PH (DIN is the German "Deutsche Industrie Norm")
or
- ISO 8763-1 (ISO which is international with its main seat in Geneva, Switzerland)
but there can be:
- DIN/ISO which is when an ISO Norm has been taken over by a German DIN-institute for German companies, such as Hazet, Wiha, Wera etc.


tanukyboy continues:
Statement from Vessel:

"Q: Why VESSEL's screwdrivers are not labeled “JIS”?

As you might know, VESSEL is the oldest screwdriver manufacturer in Japan, and made a contribution to set a JIS standard. We do follow JIS standard for cross point screwdrivers. Because the technology to manufacture screwdrivers in Japan had already become above a certain level, JIS recognition system for screwdrivers became extinct in 2008. So there is no authorized JIS manufacturer now, and we therefore cannot print "JIS" mark on our screwdrivers."

In the year 2008 an older JIS and JCIS standard was abonded, I will try to do some more research about it but one finds some information in the
CIPA AD101 2020 paper (from the year 2020).

Here the JIS standards as of 2023:

Vessel’s North American distributor had previously claimed they couldn’t label their drivers JIS for the above reason. However this is no longer shown on their website that I can find. There are many sources that wrote the exact language and sources upon sources that state the jis standard for screwdrive was replaced. The standard is both DIN and ISO by the way.


Here’s an article that is from 2016 where the actual bits are compared:
Hozan JIS Screwdrivers Review - webBikeWorld

Yes, but here we are speaking of bits and not screwdrivers:

tanukiboy continues:
From another tool manufacturer:

"Important: Vessel is making the 1/4" drive bits we carry to DIN Standard #5260. They are NOT true JIS per se. However, we have tested them extensively here and have determined that due to the tight corner radius on these bits (a key ingredient differentiating JIS from Phillips standards), they fit JIS fasteners that you will encounter perfectly."

The reason for this was that there were very complex patent problems. US manufacturers AND Vessel now produce bits according to the ISO 8763-1 i.e. DIN 5260-PH standard. But this is because those standards "should be almost similar to JIS".

But what interest us after all is not JIS but JCIS, which Vessel now calls P when importing it outside Japan.
My main Vessel is named 9900 P0-100 but it actually is JCIS No.0 = JCIS 9-70 standard.

So Vessel does produce JIS and JCIS as shown on their latest website:

but name them P when exporting them.

[UncleVanya]

Thanks for continued explanations.

[photogem]

I have added new information to the JIS/JCIS-thread about the those claims that JIS was made absolete in the year 2008:


The only thing that happened to JIS in the year 2008 was:

The Industrial Standardization Law was revised in 2004 and the JIS product certification mark was changed; since October 1, 2005, the new JIS mark has been used upon re-certification. Use of the old mark was allowed during a three-year transition period ending on September 30, 2008, and every manufacturer was able to use the new JIS mark. Therefore all JIS-certified Japanese products manufactured since October 1, 2008, have had the new JIS mark.

[photogem]

Thanks for that clarification.

To my excuse: I thought that their claims in the footnotes eg. at 2050 PH Screwdriver for Phillips screws for electronic applications - Wera Product finder for "Optimised for Asian PH screws" is sufficient.

I have now the Wera 2050PH0 here and used it on a few Pentax bodies:
The Wera is pretty close to Vessels 9900 P0-100 but the Vessel fits "that little bit better"

But if you have deeper recessed screws (sitting recessed in a deeper hole), the Vessel fits much better due to its steeper angle and more curved tip!
One cannot see the angle on the attached photo, the curve should be clear: But it is very quickly obvious when working with both.

And as Vessel shows on the diagrams on their website, the JCIS tip is that tiny bit smaller and just fits that little bit better than any other JCIS 0/JIS 0 I ever had.

Vessel is for sure JCIS 9-70 specs.
Wera I think is JIS B 4633 (and thus ISO 8764)