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01-30-2009, 02:45 PM   #16
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QuoteOriginally posted by hoghead Quote
Thanks for the quick responses. I like shooting in manual at times just to try and be a little more creative
Creativity doesn't require M mode. You can take *exactly* the same pictures in Av mode, or Tv mode, or any other exposure mode provide by Pentax save the "Green" mode on cameras that have it.

QuoteQuote:
when I'm at bike and car shows time is an issue.
But as I alluded to before, if you don't confuse yourself by changing modes and instead stick to M mode, the tiny extra step of hitting the green button every once in a while stops slowing you down. Even when trying to work fast in changing light, it takes no more time to press the green button than it takes the AF system to focus or for the SR system to be ready, so it's not like you're missing shots if you have to press the green button every time you turn around.

Mind you, I'm not saying it's better - it's purely personal. Obviously, M is slower for you right now, because you're not as experienced working and thinking that way. But with practice, it doesn't have to be so. Whether it worth it or not is entirely up to you. Most likely, it would be a lot of work for no benefit - you'd simply be as fast as you are now but doing it differently.

01-30-2009, 03:07 PM   #17
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QuoteOriginally posted by Marc Sabatella Quote
<snip> Does the light really change that much from one area of the rink to another?<snip>
Yes, a rink can vary 2 stops from centre ice to behind the goal. Given that, shooting RAW, I set to overexpose 1 stop at centre ice, and then PP to fix the exposures. I am within 1 stop at worst, and that is well within the range that can be fixed in post. The dynamic range of ice rink shots is wild anyway. Think of a black uniform on bright white ice. I check a rink before I shoot to find the range of exposure values, and set midway.

I find auto in a rink will often meter too much for the stands behind the action, and the action is blown out.
01-30-2009, 04:23 PM   #18
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Hey Steve,
That's basically the way I shoot most of the time. I'm sure the instructor is just trying to get us the learn the effects of different settings. Like I said, all his shots are preplanned and preset. He's there waiting for something to happen and ready to shoot. Every shot is from a tripod and already set for the proper exposure and in focus, not so for the kind of work I do. Two different ballgames I guess. I think the class will still be a great learning experience. I try to learn something new every time I go out.
01-30-2009, 05:20 PM   #19
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QuoteOriginally posted by Canada_Rockies Quote
Yes, a rink can vary 2 stops from centre ice to behind the goal.
Good information if I ever shoot hockey - thanks! I'd probably still do what you describe - shoot for the average and fix in in PP.

QuoteQuote:
The dynamic range of ice rink shots is wild anyway. Think of a black uniform on bright white ice. I check a rink before I shoot to find the range of exposure values, and set midway.

I find auto in a rink will often meter too much for the stands behind the action, and the action is blown out.
Right. I could also see exposure varying *wildly* from shot to shot depending on how man figures were in it. One figure = mostly white (ice) in scene = severely underexposed. Several figures = mostly dark (figures) in scene = somewhat overexposed.

01-30-2009, 05:39 PM   #20
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If you don't have a green button...

[QUOTE=Marc Sabatella;471490]Creativity doesn't require M mode. You can take *exactly* the same pictures in Av mode, or Tv mode, or any other exposure mode provide by Pentax save the "Green" mode on cameras that have it.

For those of us who don't have the "green button" (K100, ist), pressing the AE-L button is supposed to lock in what the camera's ideal 0.0 exposure, so that's the same as the green button on the K10/K20 et al, correct?
Brian
01-30-2009, 06:24 PM   #21
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There's nothing wrong with using any of the modes on the camera. The only time you should be using someone else's method (against your wishes) is when you're in their class and expecting them to mark your work. By insisting that you use manual settings he's trying to get a point across. It wouldn't hurt to learn his way, then when you're done the class, adopt it or lose it.

What kind of bothers me about his insistance though is that you're still depending on the camera's light meter to set the initial exposure. Unless of course he's using some other rules not based on your light meter. If he's doing that, then why WOULDN'T he use the camera's light meter. Its like a man who refuses to use an electric drill since his old hand-crank one does just fine.

Now, there are examples of when to leave it in manual - as has already been said, for consistancy of exposure (ie: Panos) but there are also valid times to take it off M and use Av, Tv - heck, even TAv and Sv. Typically I reserve P and Green mode for people who are using my camera

Anyway, point is, he's the teacher, learn it his way during his class. He uses that method for a reason.

- Andrew
01-30-2009, 07:03 PM   #22
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QuoteOriginally posted by FHPhotographer Quote
QuoteOriginally posted by Marc Sabatella Quote
Creativity doesn't require M mode. You can take *exactly* the same pictures in Av mode, or Tv mode, or any other exposure mode provide by Pentax save the "Green" mode on cameras that have it.
For those of us who don't have the "green button" (K100, ist), pressing the AE-L button is supposed to lock in what the camera's ideal 0.0 exposure, so that's the same as the green button on the K10/K20 et al, correct?
Correct. It causes the camera to choose an shutter speed for the aperture you have selected, like a sort of manually-assisted Av mode. At least, that's how my camera is configured - it's also possible to have it choose both shutter speed and aperture, like a sort of manually-assisted M mode.

So in my case, the only difference between M mode and Av mode is that with M mode, in case where the light has changed, I have to press a button before taking the picture. *Literally* a fraction of a second difference in those case, and in cases where the light has not changed, it's *no* different except for eliminating worry about the camera altering exposure on a whim (and thus saving me the time it would have made to alter my exposure compensation). That's a far cry from what the OP is describing - his instructor setting up a tripod and waiting for something to happen, etc. That has *nothing* to do with M mode versus Av mode. The OP's instructor would take just long setting up up his tripod and waiting for the shot if he used Av mode.
01-30-2009, 07:07 PM   #23
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I can't speak for the instructor, but he is probably just trying to cement in the students' minds the reciprocity relationship between available light, aperture and shutter speed for a given ISO setting. Once you got the basics down, then feel free to abandon it for any kind of automatic mode (including TAv as I mentioned before).

Jack

01-30-2009, 08:05 PM   #24
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QuoteOriginally posted by Marc Sabatella Quote
I shoot manual all the time, but it's carazy to imagine that I'm getting different results than I would shooting in an automatic mode. Either way, the camera will suggest an exposure, and I will take that suggestion into conisderation but end be overriding the camera's suggested exposure a fair amount of the time.
Well put. I do not understand the belief that you "learn" by shooting in M.

You have to understand the light meter, and compensate (or not) accordingly.
01-30-2009, 09:34 PM   #25
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I shoot in manual 90% of the time. But when speed is much needed, I switch to Av.
01-30-2009, 11:56 PM   #26
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What many others are saying here makes a lot of sense. The teacher is trying to teach. In order to teach, the student need be thinking and concentrating. With a camera, manual mode is most conducive to thinking and concentrating.

There is an old school philosophy that one needs to learn how to drive a car by learning with a standard transmission. Once driving is mastered in this mode, an automatic is a breeze. I think this car analogy applies well to this situation.

Also, it is a "nature photography" class you are taking. Shooting in manual works well with this kind of photography. Best of luck.
01-31-2009, 12:22 AM   #27
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My best pictures were taken in manual mode. Then again, I am a hack.

To me, that is the whole point of a DSLR and the reason I enjoy my Pentax. I'm not sure what photo I will get and, many times, a certain shot of a particular scene will be better than the others for reasons that I cannot see until I get the result. I have the control and can work a number of possibilities. If the scene is good, I take a lot of shots. I'll run through the memory card later and, occasionally, go "wow". Sometimes it just works. That is the fun.

I like the hands-on.

I also have a wall full of stereo equipment that is as old as I am. It may be old-school and ugly, but it sounds fabulous. Yes, it also integrates with the modern stuff, but it is all about the sound that equipment can deliver.
01-31-2009, 09:13 AM   #28
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Shooting in manual gives you an understanding of what the camera is doing when you press the shutter button. I think most photography classes want manually shot photos. My daughter took a class in college and had to use my old SP 1000 because the instructer wanted only manual cameras.
I shoot both manual and in various auto modes. I have several older manual lenses that only work in manual or Av. After using manual cameras for many years, I don't even think about it. The auto modes are great sometimes for when you need quick shots and I usually shoot a couple of auto mode shots and check the result as a starting point and then adjust manually if I need to.
01-31-2009, 11:20 AM   #29
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QuoteOriginally posted by Jewelltrail Quote
What many others are saying here makes a lot of sense. The teacher is trying to teach. In order to teach, the student need be thinking and concentrating.
If the teacher is trying to teach something, he should let the "students" know the real "why", not tell them crap about better exposures in manual mode. I couldn't trust a teacher who's not telling me the "why" or "how".
01-31-2009, 12:55 PM   #30
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QuoteQuote:
Flyer: If the teacher is trying to teach something, he should let the "students" know the real "why", not tell them crap about better exposures in manual mode. I couldn't trust a teacher who's not telling me the "why" or "how".
Well, unfortunately, we at the forum can not hear the lectures which are designed to complement the learning acquired through the homework. And, of course, the teacher is not here to speak for him/herself. All things stated in a lecture have a contextual meaning, preserved and defined within the context and parameters of the lecture itself.
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