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02-14-2009, 06:21 AM   #31
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QuoteOriginally posted by Maxington Quote
You didn't even read the links that I or Tigershoot linked to obviously, and didn't even properly read the DPReview review you linked to, and won't acknowledge you are wrong, nor apologize for your attitude, OR even see the logical flaws in your own arguments, so I'll just leave you to it.
I'm sorry that I don't have the inclination to read through thousands of words OT I tend to skim through for the important bits. I then quote them,instead of using vague retoric, so you can see what I'm talking about. If I've missed something important how bout you quote it so i can see where I'm wrong.

I was looking for evidence[and found it] that the MKii had weather sealing. I'm not interested in buying the camera so I didn't read the whole review. What did I miss?

I don't see how a blog post on LL has more credibility than a proper review on DPR. LL says the mkii's aren't weather sealed, DPR says they are and even shows you where they are. Who should I believe?

Apart from an unsourced remark on LL you've provided me with no proof that I'm wrong. Prove me wrong and I'll admit it.

My logical flaws? You're the one who's confusing bad/little weather sealing with none at all. Not only that but 3/4ths of the 'non weather resistant' mkii's survived without a problem. explain that.

you also claim that 100mm in three minutes must be the right answer[because your precious camera must be better than canons]. Whilst if you'd read my post you'd be able to tell why that's ridiculous. ie that 100mm of rain in three minutes(=2000mm/hr) is 40x stronger than average extreme rain and 7x stronger than the world record of 300mm/hr. that's no longer rain resistant, that's now rain proof and waterfall resistant. my logical flaws?

I find your attitude ironic for someone recommending I apologize for mine. And apart from my remark about why would someone comment out of ignorance[which was an honest question not a snide remark], I find no hint of attitude in any of my post so far. I believe in your zealous quest to defend you favorite brand you see anyone who disagrees with you as having a bad attitude.

I look forward to your reply/apology


Last edited by Bill Stickers; 02-14-2009 at 06:23 AM. Reason: typo
02-14-2009, 07:42 AM   #32
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Check thıs one

Antartica 2007 – What Worked? What Didn't
02-14-2009, 08:55 AM   #33
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QuoteOriginally posted by Bill Stickers Quote
I'm sorry that I don't have the inclination to read through thousands of words OT I tend to skim through for the important bits. I then quote them,instead of using vague retoric, so you can see what I'm talking about. If I've missed something important how bout you quote it so i can see where I'm wrong.
The important parts were quite simple to find. 25% of a decent sample size died, in mildly wet weather, two of which were under rain covers. The forum link to one of the people with a dead camera said the shutter button was corroded.

QuoteOriginally posted by Bill Stickers Quote
I was looking for evidence[and found it] that the MKii had weather sealing. I'm not interested in buying the camera so I didn't read the whole review. What did I miss?
It has some sealing in some parts of the body, which don't add up to a pile of shit if the entire body isn't sealed. Especially the shutter button, which tends to be a fairly well used part of a camera!

QuoteOriginally posted by Bill Stickers Quote
I don't see how a blog post on LL has more credibility than a proper review on DPR. LL says the mkii's aren't weather sealed, DPR says they are and even shows you where they are. Who should I believe?
DPR says, quoted from Canon "they improved dust and water resistance" They don't claim weather sealing. It's even in the "Cons" section saying the Canon version of sealing isn't up to par with competition.

QuoteOriginally posted by Bill Stickers Quote
Apart from an unsourced remark on LL you've provided me with no proof that I'm wrong. Prove me wrong and I'll admit it.
How about here, from Canon themselves?

Canon Australia - Canon Digital SLR - Canon Digital SLR EOS 5D Mark II Feature Summary

Hmm, nope, not in it's feature summary. How about the technical specs?

Canon Australia - Canon Digital SLR - Canon Digital SLR EOS 5D Mark II Technical Specification

Nope, not mentioned there, either, maybe they just don't mention it on their own website, promoting their own cameras. Let's check a known weather sealed Canon pro body just in case!

Canon Australia - EOS-1Ds Mark III Body

Yep, they mention it right in the first paragraph!

Canon Australia - EOS-1Ds Mark III Body

There it is again, in their technical specs!

Maybe they mention it on their 5d promo site when it was first released.

Canon EOS 5D Mark II

Hmm, nothing in the section about body construction. What about the technical specs on that promo site?

Canon EOS 5D Mark II - Specifications

Interesting, nothing about weather sealing, but a bit of a bugger there about operating below 85% humidity. Makes it easy to deny warranty claims I suppose.

QuoteOriginally posted by Bill Stickers Quote
My logical flaws? You're the one who's confusing bad/little weather sealing with none at all. Not only that but 3/4ths of the 'non weather resistant' mkii's survived without a problem. explain that.
No confusion there, since I never claimed it had no seals, I said it is not weather sealed. A semantic argument, but an important one, since half assed sealing is about as useful as a screen door on a submarine. I'm completely amazed that you seem to think a 25% failure rate is acceptable as well. I don't need to explain that 75% of them worked, since we've all taken unsealed cameras out in the rain and had them survive. It's high death rates that are the concern.

QuoteOriginally posted by Bill Stickers Quote
you also claim that 100mm in three minutes must be the right answer[because your precious camera must be better than canons]. Whilst if you'd read my post you'd be able to tell why that's ridiculous. ie that 100mm of rain in three minutes(=2000mm/hr) is 40x stronger than average extreme rain and 7x stronger than the world record of 300mm/hr. that's no longer rain resistant, that's now rain proof and waterfall resistant. my logical flaws?
Um, how about the logical flaw that YOU said the K20D's could handle 100mm in 3 minutes, then said that can't be possible since the 5Dmk2 can only handle 10mm, and they are both weather sealed thus they should handle the same amount. Which I thought was strange, since the Canon isn't sealed, so obviously I figured your initial recollection might be closer to the truth, and replied as such. You might be completely right that 100mm is a ridiculous figure.

QuoteOriginally posted by Bill Stickers Quote
I find your attitude ironic for someone recommending I apologize for mine. And apart from my remark about why would someone comment out of ignorance[which was an honest question not a snide remark], I find no hint of attitude in any of my post so far. I believe in your zealous quest to defend you favorite brand you see anyone who disagrees with you as having a bad attitude.
You called me a liar or ignorant, yet you think brand zealotry is why I think you have a bad attitude? What was I lying about? And who is the ignorant one?

I don't even dislike Canon or the 5Dmk2, I'm actually disappointed that they released it without weather sealing, since it would be high on my list of cameras to jump to if I changed from using Pentax for whatever reason. I'm not interested in it now, since for that price I'd want a decent body with proper weather sealing. I'd be better served going Nikon.

QuoteOriginally posted by Bill Stickers Quote
I look forward to your reply/apology
Yes, I am waiting for your apology, because you got proven wrong. Are you going to back up your own words and admit it?
02-18-2009, 06:23 PM   #34
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Sorry it took me so long to get back to you, I've been busy.

QuoteQuote:
Maybe they mention it on their 5d promo site when it was first released.

Canon EOS 5D Mark II

Hmm, nothing in the section about body construction.
??? yes there is, See that part titled "Robust Construction" under the Effortless Operation section. If you click that link it takes you to the part that shows how they've sealed it
QuoteQuote:
[the]battery compartment, memory card slot, and [all of the]buttons.
Additional protection is provided by highly accurate alignment of seams on the magnesium-alloy chassis and rubber grips as well as precision construction of each dial’s axis
QuoteQuote:
No confusion there, since I never claimed it had no seals, I said it is not weather sealed.
If sealing for "Resistance to dust and water" isn't weather sealing, what is it for? Sweat and skin cells? This argument is also moot since pentax doesn't claim that the k20d is "Weather sealed" either

QuoteQuote:
Um, how about the logical flaw that YOU said the K20D's could handle 100mm in 3 minutes, then said that can't be possible since the 5Dmk2 can only handle 10mm, and they are both weather sealed thus they should handle the same amount
You need to work on your English comprehension. Here's what I said with some helpful annotations for you
QuoteQuote:
I read some where once[unsourced anacdote] that the k20d could handle 100mm of rain in three minutes, which is ridiculous. But lets assume that was meant to be 10mm in three minutes(which is [coincidentally] the same as the 5dmkii).
QuoteQuote:
we've all taken unsealed cameras out in the rain and had them survive.
. Like **** am I taking my unsealed k100d super out in torrential rain(2.5mm in three minutes). I worry about any rain on the ****er for fear that some water will seep around one of the buttons and render the electrical components useless.

You still harp on about quality control. Why? It's irrelevant to the argument.


QuoteQuote:
but a bit of a bugger there about operating below 85% humidity.
Yes and you clearly ignore the line above it.

QuoteQuote:
Working temperature range 0°C - 40°C
I wonder how cold it gets in Antarctica? This isn't a limitation of the sealing, it's a limitation of the electrical components. The k20d has the exact same limitation.

Thank you for finding the relevant section on the canon website for me. I had no inclination to do it myself. It will make it that much sweeter when you apologize to me.

02-18-2009, 06:30 PM   #35
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From wikipedia
QuoteQuote:
The Antarctic Peninsula has the most moderate climate. Higher temperatures occur in January along the coast and average slightly below freezing
Climate of Antarctica - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I lol'd
02-18-2009, 06:30 PM   #36
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QuoteOriginally posted by Bill Stickers Quote
I wonder how cold it gets in Antarctica? This isn't a limitation of the sealing, it's a limitation of the electrical components. The k20d has the exact same limitation.
Actually, that doesn't appear to be the case. It was said that the insides were corroded.
02-18-2009, 07:13 PM   #37
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The ones reporting corrosion were the ones in the rain covers. which is odd in itself, but corrosion can be caused by water, oxygen, uv light[effects plastics] and electricity.

My preliminary theory is that because they were kept in the rain covers they didn't receive the same warmth that the non covered ones would have got by their owners. Lower temperature decreases the resistance of the metal which would increase the current which caused the corrosion.

It would be interesting to hear how the other cameras that failed were treated to see if there is a correlation.

Or there could have been a contraction/expansion problem of the housing.

Any how can we stop using this extreme example as a case study. there are too many variables and it fall way outside of the recommended operating temperature. My interpretation of the original question and subsequent argument was how well does this thing do in the rain, mud and wind, which I took to mean the kind of environment I could get outside my door not on a 2000 mile trip to antarctica
02-18-2009, 09:24 PM   #38
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Thanks

QuoteOriginally posted by Bill Stickers Quote
My interpretation of the original question and subsequent argument was how well does this thing do in the rain, mud and wind, which I took to mean the kind of environment I could get outside my door not on a 2000 mile trip to antarctica
I was thinking along those lines, specifically to the climate I will experience in Costa Rica this April.

All this feedback has been extremely helpful and I decided to get the DA*16-50mm to replace the lens that came with the K20D....better safe than sorry....and a good excuse to get the lens!

02-25-2009, 01:43 PM   #39
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Here is a pix I got out of the net when I was browsing before on the KXXD weathersealing.
I must say I was impressed when I saw this pix.
I however forgot which site or whose photo was it..sorry.
However, here is the pix:
Attached Images
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FinePix S602Z  Photo 
02-25-2009, 01:46 PM   #40
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I think this was done deliberately to test or show the weathersealing of the Pentax DSLR.
I vaguely remember the post that this was actually the K20D.
I hope this helps!
02-25-2009, 10:04 PM   #41
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QuoteOriginally posted by GerryL Quote
Here is a pix I got out of the net when I was browsing before on the KXXD weathersealing.
I must say I was impressed when I saw this pix.
I however forgot which site or whose photo was it..sorry.
However, here is the pix:
Now I know my K20 is weather-resistant and all, but if that happened to me I'd probably have an aneurysm on the spot.
02-26-2009, 03:05 AM   #42
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I have been birding now for over 40 years. I've used top end bins, scopes, cameras, lens' etc.

I've used this stuff from rain forests to the tundra and everything in between.

In my opinion the great killer of optics and electronics is not cold, heat, rain or dust.

It's humidity.

Nothing will fog up a lens internally or screw up electronics and corrode contacts like high humidity conditions and it's very hard to protect from. And it's very insidious. You don't notice anything is wrong until you start losing contrast due to fogging or your controls start to malfunction on the camera or the shutter and mirror mechanism starts to get flaky.

I'd much rather subject my gear to the Antarctica than to the Amazon rain forests.

A close second to humidity would be very fine dust.

I once had my Zeiss binos fall off the boat into 9 feet of water. They laid at the bottom over night and were retrieved the next day. Wiped them off and let them air dry and they were fine. I'm still using them after 18 years.

Last edited by wildman; 02-26-2009 at 03:19 AM.
02-26-2009, 03:36 AM   #43
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This is an answer of the question of the thread

https://www.pentaxforums.com/forums/pentax-dslr-discussion/52373-k20d-love-swedish-climate.html

---->
02-26-2009, 08:53 AM   #44
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As an engineer that works with hydrology and storm analysis, I just wanted to clear up a couple of things...

10 mm in 3 minutes is not the same thing as 200 mm in an hour. The way hydrology and storm analysis works, design storms always show peak rains in short spurts. It isn't unusual for a storm to drop at a rate of 10 mm in 3 minutes. What would be unusual is if it were to drop at that rate for an hour.

That being said, I'm not sure that 100 mm in 3 minutes is possible, but if it is, I guarantee that you wouldn't see that rate over one hour....

Just for a reference, I recently worked on a dam that was designed to handle in excess of 11 mm of rain over its first 3 minutes (38mm in 10 minutes)... For comparison the 1 hour design total is roughly 100 mm. That dam is on the fringes of the Mojave desert, a dry region of California, although for a freak thunderstorm.

I would suspect that wetter parts of the world would expect more rain, especially areas that see frequent thunderstorms and/or hurricanes. Thus 100 mm in 3 minutes is probably not unreasonable (for design purposes at least).

The caveat to the numbers I quoted is that those are considered the maximum possible rainfall for that location.
02-26-2009, 04:28 PM   #45
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The only place that the 10mm rain in 3 minutes has been referenced is on DPReviews preview of the 5Dmk2, which the Canon forum is pretty sure is a mistake. In another interview, Canon said 10 minutes of light rain in an hour, which makes more sense.

Under "Key Features"
Canon EOS 5D Mark II Review: 1. Introduction: Digital Photography Review

Anyhow, here is an interesting old thread on the K10D's weather sealing, which is what the OP asked about. Same sealing as the K20D so that's ok.

Pentax k10d water resistant and SR test: Pentax SLR Talk Forum: Digital Photography Review

Bugger doing that to my camera!
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