[monochrome]

I mean no offense to anyone personally...

...but if that's considered basic photographic knowledge, I submit that those considering it have been concerned with a particular brand for so long that they have forgotten that that information does not apply to cameras in general. Nothing about vintage camera lines or lens series names is related to photography; it's all brand-specific. (I had to read several forums for a while to find out what the letters meant myself, because the manual for my camera just throws the names out there and they aren't all documented anywhere I can find by Pentax proper. Single-letter names are impossible to use search tools for in most places too.)

As for possible trolls in general, what's the harm in answering as if they weren't? If you start sensing a circular argument, then drop it and move on...

I never understand why people get so hung up over possibly being tricked in forums on the internet. If it happens to you, so what? It's irrelevant to anything important, and if someone is there only to cause trouble it becomes obvious fairly quickly in my experience.

I know, I know. We should all help when we can; I can always ignore a thread - and I have begun to mark members on my ignore thread.

My concern is more for the Forum and less for myself and whether I choose to respond to my suspicion of being tricked.

1. Does the possibility exist that, for whatever perverse reason, someone is joining multiple times and sucking us into these circular threads to get some pleasure out of distracting us?
   1. Worse, is there a group effort
2. What do these suspicious (or at least spoon-feeding) threads do to our openness and willingness to be helpful to everyone if this becomes a persistent issue?
3. There are AMPLE websites all over the internet listing the answers to these basic questions. I educated myself about the easy stuff just by reading Boz's site over a period of several weeks. THEN I asked the more complex, technical questions about how to use a Tak on the K10D. When someone responds to a basic question by posting a link, and the VERY NEXT Reply asks a follow-on question that is in the VERY NEXT PARAGRAPH of the website my desire to spend time Replying to ALL new user questions becomes nil. I read online manuals before I ask basic questions. I don't claim to have read the manual when, in fact, had I actually READ the manual the answer was right under my nose. Maybe it is just me, but I at least TRY to help myself before asking for assistance.

I understand the sensitive nature of my Reply. I have thought about this for several days and reviewed more than a dozen threads that I thought were suspicious before making this reply. I think there is something fishy here. If I am wrong - then good.

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Last edited by monochrome; 04-26-2009 at 09:16 AM.

[Ratmagiclady]

Well, I've worked in photo retail, though it was before these digital times: really, I don't think you should be 'pushing brands' at all: you should know what you're selling, know photography, and pay attention to the people who come looking for your advice. Their needs, wants, what they *like* when you put it in their hands, whether they are likely to want, say, more lenses or some such later, and their budget.

I always saw it more as matchmaking than some competition between brands, the latter of which people can go to the Net for all they want.

People are going to tend to want to ask, "What brand is the 'best'" and then try to select from among them: even if they don't know much about photography, that's kind of something they feel they *understand,* when really, each brand has its strengths and relative weaknesses for any given price range.

With Pentax, that can get a little interesting, since the K20d is generally compared to much more expensive models from other brands: it pretty much outclasses the Nikon and Canon of similar price ranges, though there are areas where the next step up, like a Nikon d300, has certain advantages, you've got to weigh those advantages and any relevant drawbacks against, 'Hey, you can have the Pentax and better *glass* than the kit lens, (And Pentax's kit lens is really by all accounts the best out there, but still a kit lens) which in the total analysis is really more important.

It's also best for a serious student to learn on, in my opinion, for the money, as it simply has the separate shutter and aperture controls, which the models costing the same as a K20d from other brands are bound to lack. (It's certainly most appealing for people who *do* know photography and have a tight budget: the simple fact is that the various Pentaxes are the only things that are going to work well with older lenses for less than a d300 costs: until just recently, with the Nikon you couldn't even get an affordable basic prime that would work well with anything less, (and good on them for coming out with one.) )

And you get the weather sealing and probably the best overall feel: those are some prominent strong points.

Really, you're in that store to serve customers, not brands, so what you need to do is help them make some informed decisions and get what they'll be happiest with in their hands: for different people there'll be different answers there.

(If the brand-non-recognition is scaring people you otherwise think might be best suited to a Pentax, well, put one of those classic old bodies on display, so people can see they've been around just as long as the more-advertised brands. Same might go if you carry Olympus. (Though I'd actually be pretty hard-pressed to want to sell someone an Olympus if they didn't know *why* they wanted it, already, as of the last time I looked at them. )


Oh, and Monochrome, it does seem that we've had quite a number of people coming to sow confusion (or just join in on it, ) on the News and Rumors forum in particular, though... why this question is in the Beginners forum maybe seems a little odd, come to think of it, but it's not like there's any harm in having the occasional stab at a question like this: hec, the general coolness and relative lack of snobbery about the global Pentax community could *be* a good selling point.

Buy a Pentax, kids, and you get to hang out with *us.*

[OregonJim]

Well thought out and well articulated post as usual, Ratmagiclady.

Gary: FWIW, I've noticed the last week or two an increasing number of BRAND new members claiming some experience with photography, asking really basic questions about cameras in general, Pentax cameras or lenses (especially vintage), such as meaning of letters on lenses, meter doesn't work, read the manual, nothing there (but the batteries were in wrong), reasons I should stay with Pentax, etc.

Now most people would read the link and answer their own questions, but these posters come back qith several follow-on questions that are answered in the next paragraph of the supplied link, or make a doubtful claim (read the manual, nothing there).

I have started to suspect Troll-posting. At best, OP's could do more of their own work. Rather unfortunately for legitimate questioners, my desire to respond in detail (as a return of the help I have received here) has declined dramatically due to these threads - since the question threads I have started have all been very graciously answered by our members.

Note: I in no way suggest the OP is a Troll - problem is I just can't tell any more.

Unfortunately it's human nature that people in general don't like to advertise that they know less than they do but unfortunately, for them, their questions often give them away.

I mean no offense to anyone personally...



As for possible trolls in general, what's the harm in answering as if they weren't? If you start sensing a circular argument, then drop it and move on...

I never understand why people get so hung up over possibly being tricked in forums on the internet. If it happens to you, so what? It's irrelevant to anything important, and if someone is there only to cause trouble it becomes obvious fairly quickly in my experience.

The problem with trolls asking these questions, is that they have the potential to swamp the forum and crowd out the relevant threads.
(See also my response to Monochrome above, that behaviour makes it harder to identify the trolls and those people end up being accused of being trolls).

[HermanLee]

Glass, glass, glass.

Another big accessory-based selling point is wireless P-TTL controlled by the on-board flash. Canon doesn't offer this at all, and Nikon only does with their mid-range-and-up bodies (and unless I'm mistaken, not on their mid-range flash, either).

Matt,
I know you're one of the experts about Pentax flash in our forum.
So, is it really true that Canon cameras cannot control wireless flash at all through their on board flash?

Here I read at DPR for 40D spec for external flash:
• E-TTL II auto flash with EX-series Speedlites
• In-camera flash configuration (currently only 580 EX II) *
• Wireless multi-flash support
• PC Sync

Does it mean that Canon user has to use external wireless transmitter only?
I just want to clarify this since I have no clue how Canon's flash works.

I do heard a surprise response from a friend who just bought Canon 5DMII.
- He's surprised that my Pentax can do wireless PTTL (I thought he just doesn't know what his new 5D can do but now I know why )
- He said that Pentax's in body SR is a better concept than Canon's because now he doesn't have stabilizer for his fast old lenses.

[res3567]

Matt,
I know you're one of the experts about Pentax flash in our forum.
So, is it really true that Canon cameras cannot control wireless flash at all through their on board flash?

Here I read at DPR for 40D spec for external flash:
• E-TTL II auto flash with EX-series Speedlites
• In-camera flash configuration (currently only 580 EX II) *
• Wireless multi-flash support
• PC Sync

Does it mean that Canon user has to use external wireless transmitter only?
I just want to clarify this since I have no clue how Canon's flash works.

I do heard a surprise response from a friend who just bought Canon 5DMII.
- He's surprised that my Pentax can do wireless PTTL (I thought he just doesn't know what his new 5D can do but now I know why )
- He said that Pentax's in body SR is a better concept than Canon's because now he doesn't have stabilizer for his fast old lenses.

I have read in DSLR shootouts, in magazines such as POP PHOTOGRAPHY, the REBEL does not offer this at all. The mid level cameras might; the pro cameras don't have a pop up flash.

... why this question is in the Beginners forum maybe seems a little odd, come to think of it, but it's not like there's any harm in having the occasional stab at a question like this: hec, the general coolness and relative lack of snobbery about the global Pentax community could *be* a good selling point.

Buy a Pentax, kids, and you get to hang out with *us.*

I moved the thread to Beginners Q&A because I was giving him the benefit of the doubt that he was not a troll and the question was at a beginners level, salesperson or not.
In fact I have been moving a lot of threads recently from General Talk, DSLR Discussion and Lens Discussion.
If I hadn't been doing that, the Lens Discussion would have had half of the first page full of 'Error - F-- in LCD' threads and 'What lens shall I buy next?' threads. General Talk seems to get hit hard I'm assuming because it is the next forum down from Welcomes and Introductions on the forums front page. DSLR Discussion hasn't been too bad but I've still had to move quite a few.

And I've done all that with out issuing warnings or infractions to these people who don't bother to read the forum rules, take time to familiarise themselves with the layout, search for answers first or even care about where they post. I've even had people ask the same question in different forums because they were too impatient to wait for a response.
To be honest, it's wearing me out trying to keep up.
I'd appreciate it if some of you longer term and more experienced members could help out a bit and put some of these people straight. Instead of answering their questions, point them to the answers by suggesting they do a search or giving them a link to the thread that is just a few lines down the page asking the same basic question.

The worst thing about this, a lot of these people won't be on the forum longer than five minutes (figuratively) and won't make any contribution to the forum.


Rant over.

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Last edited by Damn Brit; 04-28-2009 at 10:29 PM.

[Jackm]

Thanks all who gave ideas, you were very helpful.

[patrickt]

A camera salesman's job is to, ta-da, sell cameras. It isn't really to sell this or that brand but to sell what the store carries. If I ran a computer store and heard a salesman saying, "Oh, the only way to go is with an AMD processor," I'd talk to him once. If I heard it again he'd be looking for a job with AMD.

Another aspect of the salesman's job is to keep them coming back for accessories and other parts. Now, if you're a salesman, you work at least partially on commission, would you rather sell Pentax and the subsequent lenses or a Canon/Nikon and the subsequent lenses? For a salesman, it's a no-brainer. I just checked B&H and for Canon image stablized lenses they had three under $1,000. Pentax, on the other hand, had 28 lenses listed and two were over $1,000. Of course, they're all image stabilized.

If you're a salesman, enjoy your Pentax, tell your friends and family about Pentax, but don't push Pentax at work.

When people ask me what they should get, I don't push Pentax. I want to know what they'll be using their camera for and frequently direct them towards a nice P&S. If they're set on a DSLR, I point out that all DSLRs do pretty much the same thing. One major difference is in-camera versus in-lens image stabilization. Once that's discussed, if they're leaning towards in-camera stabilization, I consider the Pentax a no-brainer.

[OregonJim]

A camera salesman's job is to, ta-da, sell cameras. It isn't really to sell this or that brand but to sell what the store carries.

Which is exactly why I do my own reasearch and never ask a salesman any question besides 'How much?'.

There used to be a day where you could find honest and knowledgable salesmen, especially in a camera store. Seems to be an extinct breed now.

[AndrewG NY]

Regarding Canon in-body wireless flash support; I don't know the answer but to some degree their body "wireless support" may mean that accessory flash can be controlled via camera LCD/buttons/wheels--may or may not mean that the pop-up flash can function as master or controller.

[egordon99]

No Canon pop-up flash can wirelessly control a slave flash BY ITSELF

You either need to mount a 580EXII (like the 540, but for Canon ) or a dedicated master device (SU-2, something like that....) but the pop-up flash by itself is fairly useless (this goes for the Rebel, as well as the XXD series)

Pentax does it, Nikon does it, Canon doesn't

What you CAN do with the 430EXII and 580EXII is control the flash entirely from the body (when it's mounted on the hotshoe) which makes it a little easier to control various esoteric custom functions (vs. doing it from the tiny UI on the flash itself)

Regarding Canon in-body wireless flash support; I don't know the answer but to some degree their body "wireless support" may mean that accessory flash can be controlled via camera LCD/buttons/wheels--may or may not mean that the pop-up flash can function as master or controller.

[HarryN]

Hi - I am a beginner, but have looked carefully at DSLRs several times over the past 4 years. (My wife wants one)

So - I guess I can say (from a beginner's viewpoint) what we found interesting about the Canon vs Nikon vs Pentax DSLRs.

a) Image Stabilization
- In body vs in lens
- My perception (right or wrong) is that putting the IS into the body makes the lenses cheaper and smaller for Pentax. (fewer parts)
- I know there are other aspects, but this made sense to me.

b) Body + Lens size
- Put a modern 30 ish and 200mm prime on each body type
- Which is more comfortable to hold and shoot ?
- What does it cost ?

c) Sensor size
- Frankly, I am still mixed on this aspect
- I have read and heard what seem to be perfectly valid points on each approach
- Sometimes, this difference seems really small unless it is a specialty situation.

d) Follow the crowd or follow your own path
- Honestly, sometimes I just do the opposite of most everyone else just to be different.
- If the crowd is buying Nikon and Canon, I buy something else.

e) I already had some Pentax lenses
- They are not expensive ones, but I had them. It seemed like a good idea to share lenses with my wife, as I plan to continue with film for a while.
- Not to cut into your new lens sales, but consider to carry some used 50mm glass - maybe some used M lenses.

f) Canon and white balance and menu
- I found the Canon white balance to be difficult and the menu did not make sense to me.
- Perhaps more importantly, the menus on most DSLRs are not that easy to use.
- Consider to have some cameras really "ready to use" to take some shots in the store. So many times it turns out that the camera has some strange setting that results in shutter activation delay or a lousy picture of basic, in-store objects.

g) Price point
- Nikon - As a practical matter - they just seemed way over priced.
- Canon - similar, but not as badly over priced
- Sony - I am boycotting Sony for personal reasons
- Samsung - No way am I going to drop $ 1 K for a camera from Samsung - I don't care how good it is.
- Pentax - Have owned a SP-F since 1973 - 4 - still works and the price is reasonably - What more can you ask ?
- Minox - Honestly - I love my Pentax SLR, but when I need a pocket camera - I use a minox. Look here: http://minox.com/index.php?id=17

Thanks for reading a novice viewpoint.

[Robert S Donovan]

[RANT] I got accused (off line) of being a troll and that pretty much soured me on this forum. I'm not a troll and I have a lot to contribute. There seems to be a general distrust of new members here. I assumed that this is a public forum and all opinions would be welcome. IMO, if someone posts asinine questions let those who want to answer do so and simply move on. Worthless threads will quickly grow cold while more significant ones will endure. No need to make it personal. [/RANT]

Meanwhile, my opinion is that the OP sounds like every Ritz/Wolf employee I have ever met. I don't buy gear from them anymore for this one reason alone.

[RoxnDox]

[RANT] I got accused (off line) of being a troll and that pretty much soured me on this forum. I'm not a troll and I have a lot to contribute. There seems to be a general distrust of new members here. I assumed that this is a public forum and all opinions would be welcome. IMO, if someone posts asinine questions let those who want to answer do so and simply move on. Worthless threads will quickly grow cold while more significant ones will endure. No need to make it personal. [/RANT]

Meanwhile, my opinion is that the OP sounds like every Ritz/Wolf employee I have ever met. I don't buy gear from them anymore for this one reason alone.

Dude, sorry to hear you got a bad reaction from someone But, we're all human in here (at least most of us probably are!), and we have the same range of reactions to people as most every other forum on the 'net. This is actually one of the nicer forums I've seen. Try to just shrug it off, participate and offer what you have to offer, and ignore the ones trash-talking you. I know, easier said than done... Give us a decent shot, we're not *all* a bunch of curmudgeonly SOBs Some are, and there are a couple who could be classed as just SOBs, but most of us are pretty nice...


Jim