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11-15-2009, 08:38 PM   #16
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QuoteOriginally posted by L(2) Quote
Here are the results:

BUT it seems in BOTH situations, whenever the flash unit is IN frame at all, i cannot see the flash firing. But if i put it out of frame (ie. not in the composition) i can see the flash in the photos. WEIRD

but before this, even if some of my test shots did not have the flash unit in frame, i still could not see the flash firing in the photos.

also, when i focus directly on the metz while it is facing directly at the lens, the flash fires but it never shows in the exposure. never at all.


edit:

i played around with it again and it seems that, when the flash unit is just outside of frame, i won't see the flash in the photo. but if i put it further away out of frame (if that makes sense) i can see the flash.

edit again:

just played with it YET again, and it seems that even if the flash unit is in frame, as long as i physically stay far away enough, i can see the flash.

hope that helps.
My take on this:

P-TTL is measuring the light needed for the scene with the pre flash. The camera is going to try to meter so that you don't blow the highlight. If the light from the flash drives all 11 meter points in the camera, then you won't see the effect of the flash in the photo. If the light from the flash is only driving some of the 11 meter points, then the camera will have to use its algorithms to balance the light directly from the flash, the light from the parts of the scene that reflect the light from the flash, and the parts of the scene that reflect or provide their own light in the sceen, to reach a compromise on the overall metering of the scene. This compromise means you will be able to see the light from the flash in this scene as the dynamic range of the camera it not infinite.

It doesn't really have anything to do with a specific flash. Just that the flash has to have a pretty good TTL/P-TTL system for you not to see the flash when the light from it drives all the metering. Does that seem logical?


Thank you
Russell

11-15-2009, 08:43 PM   #17
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QuoteOriginally posted by Canada_Rockies Quote
Try Matt's page. I got to it via studio and field accessories in these forums. There is a sticky about Pentax P-TTL and flashes.
Pentax P-TTL Flash Comparison: Feature Comparison
It specifically states that the Metz 48-1 does manual flash - which is triggered solely by another flash (not necessarily the one on YOUR camera). It is also supposed to be fully compatible with P-TTL, but might perhaps require another AF 48-1 to control it, mounted on the camera's hot shoe.

The Metz 48 AF-1 does not have a manual mode in wireless nor does it have a simple optical trigger. Wireless is P-TTL only.

Thank you
Russell
11-15-2009, 10:04 PM   #18
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QuoteOriginally posted by schmik Quote
I have a k7 and metz48. Wireless P-TTL can be used using the pop up flash as a master or controller. If it is able to do Manual mode in wireless then i have not found a way to make it work on mine. I was under the impression that it did wireless P-TTL only.

mike
I do not own the Metz; I have just reviewed a whole bunch of flashes while trying to figure out whether or not I wanted to buy a 3rd party flash or go with the AF 540 FGZ, and decided on the 540 despite the considerable cost.

I do know that I had to have both the camera manual and the flash manual open at the same time to figure the darned thing out. Right now my k10 is in the Pentax hospital - I dropped it once too often - so I cannot check out whether I can remotely trigger a manual flash exposure without the pre flash from the on camera flash. It could quite possibly be a restriction of the on board flash that there is no way to turn off the pre flash.

QuoteOriginally posted by L(2) Quote
does anyone know what's the cause of the problem i'm having? it's weird how when i'm 'focusing' directly on the flash, it won't show in the photo (even though in reality the flash did fire)
This problem is that the Metz is going off when the P-TTL pre-flash is going off. Open or download your Metz 48-1 manual, and get out the Pentax manual for your camera. They both have to be talking the same language, and it is far from transparent. I can make my 540 go off with the preflash by setting it to the wrong slave mode. I have the choice of two. One does the P-TTL; the other fires the flash as soon as it detects another flash, just as your flash is behaving.
11-15-2009, 11:00 PM   #19
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QuoteOriginally posted by Russell-Evans Quote
Does that seem logical?
so it's just one of those things impossible to do due to the metering?

11-16-2009, 05:08 AM   #20
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May I suggest that people who don't own a Metz 48 (and thus have no clue about it) stop writing their misleading speculations and other nonsense? No need to confuse and mislead beginners with things that aren't true.

Metz 48 has only 1 wireless mode: optical wireless P-TTL mode, period. Only a P-TTL master/controller can trigger it with the appropriate wireless command flashes in wireless mode.

As for why the flash isn't visible when the head is directly facing your camera: come on, use some common sense, please! Metering is the key, it doesn't let the flash to "blind" the camera, resulting in a totally overexposed picture.

As for the original issue: I suspect it is due to wrong placement of the camera and/or wrong head direction, so (most of) the flash's light misses the subject/scene.
11-16-2009, 02:52 PM   #21
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QuoteOriginally posted by L(2) Quote
so it's just one of those things impossible to do due to the metering?
I'm pretty sure since the flash and the camera are working together in an automated mode.

Thank you
Russell
12-05-2009, 09:17 AM   #22
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QuoteOriginally posted by simico Quote
Only a P-TTL master/controller can trigger it with the appropriate wireless command flashes in wireless mode.
Sorry for the OT, but can somebody tell me if the 58 AF-1 has the ability to be triggered wireless set in manual or auto modes? Or this ability is only an exclusive of Pentax 360 and 540 flashes?

Thank you.
12-05-2009, 11:22 AM   #23
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Regarding the flash not showing when you take a picture of it (which in real life you would almost never do)...I own the 48 (used for test) so speak from experience. I have the on board flash set to controller (not used for exposure)

The pre flash of the pTTL is triggering the metz BEFORE the exposure by over powering the sensor, so it doesnt show in the image:

direct focus AV mode (pTTL), flash fired ( I saw it flash) but before the exposure.



If composed with the metz outside the center of the frame, the preflash is not as strong and doesnt trigger the metz to early:

indirect focus AV mode (pTTL)



How do I know it's the pre flash: M mode solves the problem:

direct focus M mode (no pTTL) no pre flash from the camera.



Indirect focus M mode (no pTTL)




Last edited by mtroute; 12-05-2009 at 11:55 AM.
12-05-2009, 11:29 AM   #24
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QuoteOriginally posted by mtroute Quote
How do I know it's the pre flash: M mode solves the problem:
You are wrong about M mode not being P-TTL.

Thank you
Russell
12-05-2009, 11:30 AM   #25
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QuoteOriginally posted by Russell-Evans Quote
You are wrong about M mode not being P-TTL.

Thank you
Russell
I think not.

edit: to not be an ass and just tell you your wrong, I guess I will tell you why you are wrong.

pTTL tells the flash what the camera has set the exposure to based on the metering and then tells the flash what amount of flash to out put.

In M mode there IS NO METERING taking place. With no metering info to transmit, by definition the is NO pTTL, hence the MANUAL in manual mode...

Last edited by mtroute; 12-05-2009 at 11:37 AM.
12-05-2009, 11:34 AM   #26
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QuoteOriginally posted by mtroute Quote
I think not.
If you want to really see what manual flash is like on your camera, use a lens with an aperture ring, and move the ring off the A setting. The on board flash will now act as a manual flash. Please post your experience with setting up wireless in this mode.

Thank you
Russell
12-05-2009, 11:42 AM   #27
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QuoteOriginally posted by Russell-Evans Quote
If you want to really see what manual flash is like on your camera, use a lens with an aperture ring, and move the ring off the A setting. The on board flash will now act as a manual flash. Please post your experience with setting up wireless in this mode.

Thank you
Russell
What does an aperture ring have to do with pTTL? M mode is M mode with an "A" setting or not. What difference does it make how I select the aperture?

I am setting all aspects of the exposure, f-stop, shutter and sometimes ISO. The camera does nothing. It is as manual as M lenses...

And since it is manual the camera does not send metering information to the flash. It tells me that my exposure is off by flashing the LED's in the view finder but it does not alter my settings.
12-05-2009, 11:44 AM   #28
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QuoteOriginally posted by Russell-Evans Quote
Please post your experience with setting up wireless in this mode.

Thank you
Russell
do you see the pictures above, no camera attached to the flash...
12-05-2009, 12:44 PM   #29
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QuoteOriginally posted by mtroute Quote
What does an aperture ring have to do with pTTL? M mode is M mode with an "A" setting or not. What difference does it make how I select the aperture?
By using a non-A lens, the on board flash reverts to manual, hence, not P-TTL.



QuoteOriginally posted by mtroute Quote
I am setting all aspects of the exposure, f-stop, shutter and sometimes ISO. The camera does nothing. It is as manual as M lenses...
The camera does however control the flash with P-TTL


QuoteOriginally posted by mtroute Quote
And since it is manual the camera does not send metering information to the flash. It tells me that my exposure is off by flashing the LED's in the view finder but it does not alter my settings.
Metering information is being sent to the flash.


Try this, set the cameras drive mode to 2 second delay. Put the camera in Av mode, pop up the flash and take a photo. Notice preflash as the mirror goes up and then the second main flash when the shutter opens. Now switch the camera to M mode and take a photo. Notice the preflash when the mirror goes up, notice the main flash when the shutter opens? OK, now move the aperture ring off of A and take a photo. Notice that there isn't a preflash as the mirror goes up? Notice that only the main flash fires? Moving the aperture ring off of A or using a non-A lens are the only way to force the flash into manual.

Thank you
Russell
12-05-2009, 01:24 PM   #30
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QuoteQuote:
Try this, set the cameras drive mode to 2 second delay. Put the camera in Av mode, pop up the flash and take a photo. Notice preflash as the mirror goes up and then the second main flash when the shutter opens. Now switch the camera to M mode and take a photo. Notice the preflash when the mirror goes up, notice the main flash when the shutter opens? OK, now move the aperture ring off of A and take a photo. Notice that there isn't a preflash as the mirror goes up? Notice that only the main flash fires? Moving the aperture ring off of A or using a non-A lens are the only way to force the flash into manual.
Well this is indeed the behavior of the camera. However once off the "A" setting the camera will not trigger the flash.

Based on my tests, the flash may be sending a preflash but it is not sending pTTL info. I posit this because when I am in "M" mode the flash does not respond to on camera Flash EV+/- adjustments. It does however in any other mode...

But clearly I could be wrong.

Thanks for the lesson
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