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02-06-2010, 09:31 PM   #31
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They could just have easily called it "low light portrait mode" or "indoor portrait mode". Call it what you will, the camera is trying to balance flash with ambient in a meaningful way. This is a good thing. If you don't want the camera to do this, learn how to use manual mode. Maybe someone with a K-X can get the camera to replicate the OP and take a few snaps with it to show you can get good results.

02-06-2010, 11:07 PM   #32
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Everybody seems to forget the orginal question "the night scene portrait can be removed from the menu". I went through the K-x manual a couple of times but can't find anything that allows you to disable it.

John52, I'm afraid that your wife has to learn to select the correct picture/scene mode manually (this has nothing to do with knowledge of iso and f-stops) to prevent this from happening. I understand the inconvenience for her but I assume it's better than using P, Av etc. The alternative can be that she keeps shooting with the old camera (if you still have it and it is still working).

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02-07-2010, 12:04 AM   #33
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QuoteOriginally posted by Alfisti Quote
I call BS. I cannot believe the way this user is being blown off.

It's supposed to also appeal to "soccer mums" or why have AUTO to begin with? The whole point of super cheap entry level is to make it easy for new users so they get hooked on the mount, this is plain just pissing people off. Why do you think the D40 was such a red hot hit?

How is it the users fault if it keeps selecting slow sync flash? There is just NO WAY it needs 1/8th second and flash, it does that because it selects night portrait mode.
I agree that the camera should try to behave reasonably in as many situations as possible when in Green mode, and that calling it user error isn't really helpful here. However, I disagree that using slow shutter speeds in conjunction is behaving unreasonably. I think it's exactly the right decision most of the time, and as I mentioned above, I'd like to see the results that show a problem with this approach - it's been used successfully for decades. If it didn't work well for one particular photo, I'd call that a fluke, not an inherent problem with the basic approach.
02-07-2010, 01:20 AM   #34
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I don't reckon 'night scene portrait' mode is what it should use either... That's something you should select when you want it and know the associated implications. It should be a basic flash mode.

02-07-2010, 07:45 AM   #35
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But he's not trying to get themost out of the camera, he just wants his wife to fire a snap shot, it's hardly tracking birds in flight.

QuoteOriginally posted by Damn Brit Quote
I'm just pointing out that to get the most out of a K-x a skill set higher than that needed for a P&S camera.
02-07-2010, 07:51 AM   #36
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QuoteOriginally posted by Marc Sabatella Quote
I agree that the camera should try to behave reasonably in as many situations as possible when in Green mode, and that calling it user error isn't really helpful here. However, I disagree that using slow shutter speeds in conjunction is behaving unreasonably. I think it's exactly the right decision most of the time, and as I mentioned above, I'd like to see the results that show a problem with this approach - it's been used successfully for decades. If it didn't work well for one particular photo, I'd call that a fluke, not an inherent problem with the basic approach.
It's not doing it once, it's doing it often, hence the frustration. Why is this scene mode even on the AUTO program? It makes ZERO sence, it's a very specific application, how does the camera even know a portrait is being taken and if so how does it know th euser wants the background to be illuminated.

He just wants to take a flash photo in a dark room, why it doesn't just pop the flash and fire is bizzare on an entry level camera.

Apparently the potential buyer is regarded as being a bit diengaged from the process, you know, not being smart enough to pick an AF poitn or remember to charge the battery when travelling, so why assume they know what slow sync flash is and needing to use a tripod?

It's just weird and likely an oversight that can easily be fixed.
02-07-2010, 08:04 AM   #37
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QuoteOriginally posted by Alfisti Quote
It's not doing it once, it's doing it often, hence the frustration. Why is this scene mode even on the AUTO program? It makes ZERO sence, it's a very specific application, how does the camera even know a portrait is being taken and if so how does it know th euser wants the background to be illuminated.
My experiments seem to indicate that, when in Multi-segment, the camera is making a distinction between the light level of the objects in the center of the scene, and the light level of the area at the edges of the scene. I think that's how it recognizes a night scene.

That's why I recommended trying Center-weighted. With CW, the meter places less emphasis on the edges of the scene, and Night Scene is selected less often.
02-07-2010, 10:37 AM   #38
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QuoteOriginally posted by Alfisti Quote
It's not doing it once, it's doing it often, hence the frustration.
Then it should be really easy for someone to post sample images showing the cases where those settings cause a problem. Until someone does so, I'm going to continue to claim that these *are* good settings and *should* work most of the time in these settings.

QuoteQuote:
Why is this scene mode even on the AUTO program? It makes ZERO sence, it's a very specific application, how does the camera even know a portrait is being taken and if so how does it know th euser wants the background to be illuminated.
Disagree 100%. If you're going to trust AUTO to try to guess what you want, you're not allowed to complain if you happen to have quirky tastes that the camera doesn't know about. The type of settings being chosen here *are* appropriate for many photographers.

QuoteQuote:
He just wants to take a flash photo in a dark room, why it doesn't just pop the flash and fire is bizzare on an entry level camera.
Again, disagree 100%. If you wanted a crappy picture, get a crappy camera. The camera is trying to create a better picture, and based on the chosen settings, should have succeeded.

02-07-2010, 10:45 AM   #39
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Who says it's going to be crappy? And crappy to who exactly? Most casual users don't give a rats arse abou tthe background they just want the subject illuminated.

It's far too confusing a setting to be imposing on new users who do not care about the art of imaging, they just don't. It says AUTO so it should behave as such, the manual selection of scene modes are there if one chooses to be more engaged.

I cannot believe the excuse making, look outside your own needs and to those of the users wife, she's not asking too much to just get the thing to pop the flash and fire off a frame ...... man talk about denial.
02-07-2010, 11:26 AM   #40
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QuoteOriginally posted by Alfisti Quote
Who says it's going to be crappy? And crappy to who exactly? Most casual users don't give a rats arse abou tthe background they just want the subject illuminated.
Could be. In which case, why not get a P&S?

Anyhow, you're right this is subjective, and some might prefer the background not illuminated. The camera cannot read your mind. some will prefer the backgrounds more illuminated, others won't. AUTO has to make a choice, and I think it makes the wise one here. Anyone who prefers a different choice is welcome to choose their own mode, but expecting to the camera to read your mind and know you want something that every book ever written on photography would call inferior makes no sense to me.

QuoteQuote:
I cannot believe the excuse making, look outside your own needs and to those of the users wife, she's not asking too much to just get the thing to pop the flash and fire off a frame
No one ever said otherwise. I'm not saying AUTO shouldn't make good choice - I'm saying it *did* make a good choice. Not just for me, but the majority of people. Again, I maintain the chosen settings should have worked fine, and would like to see the pictures that demonstrate otherwise.
02-07-2010, 11:32 AM   #41
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QuoteOriginally posted by Alfisti Quote
But he's not trying to get themost out of the camera, he just wants his wife to fire a snap shot, it's hardly tracking birds in flight.
QuoteOriginally posted by Alfisti Quote
Who says it's going to be crappy? And crappy to who exactly? Most casual users don't give a rats arse abou tthe background they just want the subject illuminated.

It's far too confusing a setting to be imposing on new users who do not care about the art of imaging, they just don't. It says AUTO so it should behave as such, the manual selection of scene modes are there if one chooses to be more engaged.

I cannot believe the excuse making, look outside your own needs and to those of the users wife, she's not asking too much to just get the thing to pop the flash and fire off a frame ...... man talk about denial.
Maybe his wife is able to just fire off a snapshot in the majority of occasions. They just happen to of stumbled upon conditions where that doesn't seem possible. You can say that it's wrong and shouldn't happen all you like but that isn't going to change things for John52 and his wife. It's necessary to learn to recognise those conditions and adjust the camera settings accordingly unfortunately.
I don't see you making the same argument about AWB. According to your thinking, it says AUTO so it should behave as such, which it does in most situations. But some lighting conditions it can't so we all have to compensate and we don't go round saying "It shouldn't be that way".
02-07-2010, 05:34 PM   #42
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QuoteOriginally posted by Marc Sabatella Quote
I'm not saying AUTO shouldn't make good choice - I'm saying it *did* make a good choice. Not just for me, but the majority of people. Again, I maintain the chosen settings should have worked fine, and would like to see the pictures that demonstrate otherwise.
Can't agree Marc. With a 1/8sec shutter speed, the majority of people will have already started to pull the camera away from their eye before the exposure has finished!

Cheers, Nige
02-07-2010, 08:35 PM   #43
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Now that Pentax is in fact marketing the K-x like a point and shoot (see Shopping Network thread), I expect we will see lots of discussion like this

Having read the manual a couple of times I think they may be better off going to "Portrait" mode in this situation.
02-08-2010, 12:26 PM   #44
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QuoteOriginally posted by HGMonaro Quote
Can't agree Marc. With a 1/8sec shutter speed, the majority of people will have already started to pull the camera away from their eye before the exposure has finished!
Well, if so, then that's simple photographer error, and easily corrected. But in any case, it doesn't matter. The flash will have already provided all the illumination they subjects are going to get. 1/8" at f/7.1 and ISO 1600 is not going to let in much light at all in comparison.

In fact I just tried this. I mean, I tried as hard as I could to *make* the picture come out blurry at those settings. No matter how much I moved the camera, I completely failed in my attempt to get a blurry picture. The light from the flash was so short it didn't matter how much I moved the camera - I got no blur. The only way I was able to get any blur was to shoot a scene that had so much light that it was already properly exposed at that those settings even without flash. But if that had been the case, then the camera would *not* have chosen those settings.

That's why I'm asking to see samples. I don't know about anyone else, but I've really thought this through, and those exposure settings should *not* result in blur if it really is a dark scene. it's common sense if you think it through and don't just assume 1/8" means blur. It shouldn't if flash is the dominant light source, and that's presumably what the OP is dealing with here.

Now, it's certainly possible the camera somehow missed in terms of gauging the ambient light - like if the metering off an especially dark-colored subject. So the standard advice on metering would apply. However, with correct metering, the mode in question *does* work. It really does. If it didn't, there's a lot of photography books that would need to be re-written, and a lot of great pictures taken using those kind of settings that would be unexplainable.
02-08-2010, 01:40 PM   #45
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I have enclosed two test shots, 095 is with "Night Scene" and 104 is with Auto Portrait. Both were taken at night with only the ambient light from the table lamp. 095 looks more like a picture taken at night but it is not "crisp" an there is too many spots that are over exposured.
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