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02-15-2010, 08:40 AM   #16
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I just tested my K-x, hand-held, SR on, with an FA 35mm at 1/20, 1/30, 1/60, 1/125 and 1/250s. All were razor sharp viewed at 100% crop except for 1/20s. Firmware is 1.1. No problem here.


Last edited by audiobomber; 02-15-2010 at 08:50 AM.
02-15-2010, 08:48 AM   #17
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QuoteOriginally posted by Graystar Quote
But how can you tell if there's anything wrong with the image if you don't have a control image, taken at the same aperture but at a much higher shutter speed, to show you what it SHOULD look like?

Looking at reduced-size images will never show you anything. My concern is about making 11x14 prints of cropped images. That's going to be a problem if the images aren't sharp. And regardless of whether the problem is widespread, or exists in just a few samples, the one thing I know for sure is that my K-x cannot take sharp images in the 1/60s range.
Hmmm... 11*14 from a crop - what size crop, 1/2 the frame, 1/4? Maybe I'm underestimating what folk achieve, but even if I had the best quality lens and best quality camera, I'd be pretty happy if I could make ultrasharp 11*14 prints from just a crop. That's close on a3 =)
02-15-2010, 09:27 AM   #18
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
It would be a reasonable thing to try a different kx and see if it is different.
You're right. However, Iíve decided to switch for a couple of other reasons. First, Iíve decided that optical IS is better because it helps with framing, autofocus, and probably spot metering as well. Second, I noticed a strange color banding problem. Look at the following 100% crops of a take-out menu that Iíve been using to test the shake problemÖ



Ignore the 1/30s and 1/60s crops. Do you see the bands of yellow in the 1/250s crop? Those donít exist in the original. Iíve noticed this in other images as well.

So, if the shake issue was the only thing bothering me, then I might stick it out and work with Pentax to get it fixed. But with this odd banding issue and my view on the ISÖIíll just be happier going with a different system.
02-15-2010, 09:41 AM   #19
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I'm one who has noticed the "mirror slap" problem in my K-x. The whole thing is getting slightly ridiculous; for one, it's not "mirror slap" causing the problem. The problem dissapears when I turn off the SR, which you really don't need at those shutter speeds anyways.

Very, very few K-x samples have displayed this problem so far. Your chances of getting one of them are very low. If you're worried about it, buy from a site like amazon or adorama that has a good return policy. When the camera shows up, test the "usual suspect" shutter speeds, and if you got a problem camera, just send it back and get another one. The chances of you getting TWO bad ones in a row are ridiculously low.

Seriously, just get one. You won't regret it.

Graystar, about that banding: electronic interference banding will show up occasionally in photos taken by any camera using an electronic image sensor. It happened occasionally with my E-330, with my K20D, and with my 40D. I haven't seen any yet with my K-x but it's bound to happen sooner or later. Oftentimes your surroundings are the source of the problem; I went on a whale watch with the K20D and when I was sitting over the engine, there were intereference bands in my photos. Sitting up near the front of the boat there were no problems.

02-15-2010, 09:48 AM   #20
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A lot of "issues" that get bandied about on the internet are from people who don't know how to use a camera, find a problem of their own making, and then start to bleat about it on camera forums.
A "mirror slap" problem can simply be a camera that is used on too light a tripod, or used on a tripod that sings.
Pentax is probably "ignoring" the issue because it isn't an issue with the equipment, it's just a couple of retards who can't run a camera as well as they can run their mouths.

Regarding lens based SR being better, it is in some situations, isn't in other situations. The only overall advantage I've heard about is that it masks poor camera handling by stabilizing the image in the viewfinder.
The downside of lens based VR is that it only works with lenses that have it built in.
Sensor based works with any lens that can be mounted, which is a decided advantage if you are working with older glass, or don't want to tolerate the optical compromises that are demanded by lens based VR.
People are too quick to blame equipment without looking at their own failings. If I had a camera that "couldn't take a sharp picture", I would seriously be looking at the lens to see if it is capable of taking a sharp picture, and I'd be looking at my technique to make sure that nothing I am doing is getting in the way of taking a sharp picture.
Cropped sensor DSLR cameras are not especially forgiving regarding camera shake. The format is very demanding, far more demanding than the 135 format. If your technique isn't up to snuff, you are going to have imaging problems, especially with regard to sharpness.

As an aside, if someone could either post a link to the DPReview stupidy on the subject or perhaps better still, PM me a link, I would appreciate it.

EDIT:

Don't worry about the link. I just found a thread on DPReview about a guy who is going to return his KX without taking it out of the box because he has read about an issue with mirror slap.
Such is the level of intelligence on DPReview.

Last edited by Wheatfield; 02-15-2010 at 10:30 AM. Reason: Did my own checking, found retardation
02-15-2010, 09:51 AM   #21
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QuoteOriginally posted by er1kksen Quote
Graystar, about that banding: electronic interference banding will show up occasionally in photos taken by any camera using an electronic image sensor. It happened occasionally with my E-330, with my K20D, and with my 40D. I haven't seen any yet with my K-x but it's bound to happen sooner or later. Oftentimes your surroundings are the source of the problem; I went on a whale watch with the K20D and when I was sitting over the engine, there were intereference bands in my photos. Sitting up near the front of the boat there were no problems.
I've had banding from shooting too close to a florescent light fixture.
02-15-2010, 09:57 AM   #22
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If I wanted to switch, I would have switched already..geezzz.
I bet the K100D has had more mirror slap than the K-x and it has produced excellent images.
If I move to another system and I'm always complaining about something, I'm sure I'll find something on that system too!
With me, I'm happy with what I have and know that I use the skills I have and not complain about technology not being up to par to be my excuse of my shortcomings.
Boy, am I glad I came from shooting film as I never rely on technology too much and am pretty content with what technology gives me to help with my skills.
02-15-2010, 10:02 AM   #23
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QuoteOriginally posted by Wheatfield Quote
A lot of "issues" that get bandied about on the internet are from people who don't know how to use a camera, find a problem of their own making, and then start to bleat about it on camera forums.
A "mirror slap" problem can simply be a camera that is used on too light a tripod, or used on a tripod that sings.
Pentax is probably "ignoring" the issue because it isn't an issue with the equipment, it's just a couple of retards who can't run a camera as well as they can run their mouths.
That is why I'm switching too!

02-15-2010, 11:05 AM   #24
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Sometimes I read a post saying someone is switching brands or not buying a Pentax, and I think, great, I'm glad. Now you can haunt the other camera's forums with all your complaints about how the camera is flawed and can't take good pictures. Much worse are the people who don't switch and continue on with their constant complaining.
02-15-2010, 11:36 AM   #25
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QuoteOriginally posted by Wheatfield Quote
A lot of "issues" that get bandied about on the internet are from people who don't know how to use a camera, find a problem of their own making, and then start to bleat about it on camera forums.
A "mirror slap" problem can simply be a camera that is used on too light a tripod, or used on a tripod that sings.
Pentax is probably "ignoring" the issue because it isn't an issue with the equipment, it's just a couple of retards who can't run a camera as well as they can run their mouths.
This is true of a lot of posts I've seen. However, after "running" a succession of film and digital SLRs (some of them higher resolution than the K-x and therefore more demanding of good technique) and never observing this problem before, and after observing that the problem is eliminated simply by turning off the SR at speeds above 1/60th (changing no other variable), I'm just slightly inclined to think that the SR mechanism in my K-x just might have something to do with it, and just a little bit tired of posts labeling everyone who observes something similar as a technique-ignorant "retard."

No matter what, the problem is both rare and minor and shouldn't stop anyone from buying a K-x, so the screamers who blow this out of proportion are really unfortunate. But developing a knee-jerk head-in-the-sand reaction doesn't do anything to help things either.
02-15-2010, 11:37 AM   #26
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QuoteOriginally posted by Graystar Quote
The problem appears to be that the mirror is jostling the sensor, either through its physical movement, or possibly due to electrical noise or the release mechanism. Whatever the reason, the sensor is moving...and Nikon doesn't use moving sensors in their dSLRs.
True - meaning that except on the tiny percentage of (mostly very expensive) lenses with SR, you'll get blur from camera shake instead. Not that Nikon doesn't make good cameras - just there are tradeoffs, and you're giving up more than you may realize.

I would also agree the "yellow banding" looks suspiciously like what normally happens when shooting with fluorescent light at a shutter speed that doesn't sync well with the cycle time of the AC current.
02-15-2010, 11:39 AM   #27
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QuoteOriginally posted by Graystar Quote
You're right. However, I’ve decided to switch for a couple of other reasons. First, I’ve decided that optical IS is better because it helps with framing, autofocus, and probably spot metering as well. Second, I noticed a strange color banding problem. Look at the following 100% crops of a take-out menu that I’ve been using to test the shake problem…



Ignore the 1/30s and 1/60s crops. Do you see the bands of yellow in the 1/250s crop? Those don’t exist in the original. I’ve noticed this in other images as well.

So, if the shake issue was the only thing bothering me, then I might stick it out and work with Pentax to get it fixed. But with this odd banding issue and my view on the IS…I’ll just be happier going with a different system.
If you knew some more about printig, you'd know where and why you have those yellow stripes. The printing process uses 4 colors, black, cyan magenta and yellow. To avoid "moire" pattern, the first three colors screens are set at 45 deg. from each other. Then the yellow, which is less visible, is set at 22.5 deg, between the cyan and magenta. It's that 22.5 deg that interacts with the pattern of pixels on the camera.
02-15-2010, 11:43 AM   #28
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QuoteOriginally posted by audiobomber Quote
Sometimes I read a post saying someone is switching brands or not buying a Pentax, and I think, great, I'm glad. Now you can haunt the other camera's forums with all your complaints about how the camera is flawed and can't take good pictures. Much worse are the people who don't switch and continue on with their constant complaining.
There's a difference between "constant complaining" and "acknowledging that the problem exists." I'm not complaining, and I'm not claiming that my camera can't take good pictures (it already has... a lot of them!). Faulty samples of any mass-produced product are to be expected, and when it's such an easy fault to work around, why bother getting up in arms about it? I'm just sick of people getting blasted for noting that their K-x doesn't do exactly what it's supposed to do all the time.

I'm not switching anytime soon, but I'm also not about to claim that every K-x sample is perfect (after all, mine's not) and that Pentax can do no wrong.
02-15-2010, 11:51 AM   #29
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QuoteOriginally posted by er1kksen Quote
I'm also not about to claim that every K-x sample is perfect (after all, mine's not) and that Pentax can do no wrong.
Totally agree, I'm a pretty fierce critic of Pentax where it is warranted myself *K-7 lowlight performance yah boo hiss* But by the same token surely a reasonable man will agree the flipside also holds - no point in claiming that every K-X sample is broken based on a very limited sample.

Hence a title like: "Is there any k-x not suffering from the mirror slap problem?" is ludicrous. last time I heard you had to prove an assertion like that before you made it, ie innocent until proven guilty. Posting stuff like that is imo unhelpful as it just scaremongers.
02-15-2010, 11:53 AM   #30
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This forum is becoming DPR II

BASH BASH BASH.... Get the torches


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The mirror slap problem is real. To dismiss it is as a couple of guys complaining is downright maboish. That is always the Pentax/Hoya line, "a few disgruntled people on the internet".... bla bla bla.

I have lots of shots that do not exhibit the issue... I have had a few that do. The ones that do are not as bad as some of the other folks, but it is there none the less.

So please do not dismiss issues with these cameras and lenses. Eventually it may be your issue and you will want a real discussion. Lets keep this forum a place where that can happen.
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