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05-09-2010, 09:19 AM   #16
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QuoteOriginally posted by cfraz Quote
Lowell - do you give private lessons?
what you are looking at is the culimination of 30 years of mistakes (er, i mean experience) combined with technology.

It really comes down to simple technique.

- A good stance feet apart and also one slightly ahead of the other.
- a good grip on the camera one hand on the grip the other as far forward as possible,
-and arms tight in against the body.
- you should be exhaling slowly when you shoot.

Live view is not your friend when dealing with shake reduction because it encourages incorrect technique.

work on it and practice practice practice.

05-09-2010, 09:56 PM   #17
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Wish I didn't have inherently shakey hands.

*doesn't drink coffee*
05-09-2010, 10:34 PM   #18
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I have no blurring problem on my K-x even on 1/2.

What I do is like how I use my K-1000 for so many years and also when I fire my 45 caliber handgun.

1. Take a good grip (left hand in pull and right hand in push but not hard so you lock it)
2. Aim
3. Inhale
4. Hold your breath
5. Fire
6. Exhale

Try it and you will get good result even if you turn the SR off.

Remember the K-1000 is an old technology and very basic (no SR at that time), I do 1/1 at night using candle light or short B shots without tripod when I was still young in the 70s to 80s and no blurred problem. You can do it to in the K-x.

I get good score in my unmodified Colt 45 as compared to the other guys with a race gun or modified gun just with the technique that I learned from a writer of a gun magazine that I applied also to SLR and DSLR photography.

(and I drink brewed coffee 2 to 3 times a day)
05-09-2010, 10:48 PM   #19
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Jlaubza, I'm glad to hear you were able to clear up your own image-blur issues. However, do not let your experience lead you to believe that all cases of K-x image-blurring are user-based.

In my case, I am quite experienced in the matter of getting sharp handheld images out of cameras with NO SR in the first place. I know what conditions I can handhold in and what situations I can't.

This doesn't change the fact that within a very specific shutter-speed range (1/100th-1/160th) my K-x produces slightly shaken images (doubling is evident), at any focal length, in any orientation, and only when SR ison . I get sharper images at slower shutter speeds in many cases. My solution is simply to avoid those shutter speeds or turn SR off.

I can't help but feel that your tripod solution is a bit moot... if you can bother with a tripod, why do you need SR at all? Personally, I always use the timer when shooting on tripod, so SR is disabled anyway.

I'm really not sure why threads like this keep popping up. It's been established that a small percentage of K-x owners experience consistent, minor problems that appear to be related to the SR or shutter mechanism (different users may in fact be experiencing different problems). These problems are not actually common, and a lot of complainers are in fact suffering from user error. I thought we had established all this and gotten over it already. :P

05-11-2010, 11:15 AM   #20
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not all users have user related SR problems

Hi er1kksen, thanks for responding.

I used a tripod to diagnose a problem, not to solve it! What I have established for myself is that I have to stick to a shutter speed = 2/focal length rule - for steady users like you, you might be able to get to 4/focal length.

I'm interested that you say that a small percentage of users seem to have genuine camera SR problems, yourself included. A small percentage is a lot less than the 34% who reported problems in a poll on this forum a few weeks ago. A small percentage is much more likely to be due to technical rather than user issues.

As you say though, most of the problems reported are likely to be user errors but I didn't know that it had been clearly established that this was the case - where was that information posted?

My tripod test is something that all users can try - if you still see a blur/double image on the tripod then I think it is conclusive that the SR mechanism is at fault. Now since you say that you have this problem, I'm curious to know why you haven't had your camera repaired under guarantee?

Have you tried the tripod test? The problem with any handheld test is that you cannot rule out the possibility of shake blurring as opposed to SR blurring.

I haven't yet seen blurred pictures that were taken on a tripod or using a soft bag to steady the camera.

Regards.
05-11-2010, 12:33 PM   #21
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QuoteOriginally posted by jlaubza Quote
I'm interested that you say that a small percentage of users seem to have genuine camera SR problems, yourself included. A small percentage is a lot less than the 34% who reported problems in a poll on this forum a few weeks ago.
A poll in which the respondents are self-selected is the textbook way to get hugely inflated numbers. Only the folks with an interest in the issue tend to respond - and of course, it's the people who have problems who have the most interest. So that 34% is basically a guaranteed overestimate. On top of that, yes, you have to consider that some of the people saying "yes" are just wrong - their problems are simple user error.

Bottom line, no one knows how common the problem is. All we know for sure is that it's a lot less than 34% - a self-selected poll will never *underestimated* the actual number.
05-12-2010, 10:32 AM   #22
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QuoteOriginally posted by jlaubza Quote
Hi er1kksen, thanks for responding.

I used a tripod to diagnose a problem, not to solve it! What I have established for myself is that I have to stick to a shutter speed = 2/focal length rule - for steady users like you, you might be able to get to 4/focal length.

I'm interested that you say that a small percentage of users seem to have genuine camera SR problems, yourself included. A small percentage is a lot less than the 34% who reported problems in a poll on this forum a few weeks ago. A small percentage is much more likely to be due to technical rather than user issues.

As you say though, most of the problems reported are likely to be user errors but I didn't know that it had been clearly established that this was the case - where was that information posted?
The information is spread through a number of threads that have passed through this forum (as well as a few in the beginner's forum) ever since the K-x appeared. There were occasional appearances by both anti-pentax flamers and unaccountably vehement deniers, but the general conclusion of the rational discussion that occurred was that yes, a small percentage of users were experiencing an actual malfunction, though most reports were likely user error.

QuoteQuote:
My tripod test is something that all users can try - if you still see a blur/double image on the tripod then I think it is conclusive that the SR mechanism is at fault. Now since you say that you have this problem, I'm curious to know why you haven't had your camera repaired under guarantee?
I purchased the K-x shortly before an extended trip out of the country, and it would have been a huge hassle to get it replaced on such short order. The malfunction is very easy to work around, so I didn't see the effort as worth it. I still feel that I made the right decision, as simply avoiding the "problem" shutter speeds was easy and aside from that the K-x delivered a very satisfactory performance. On that same trip, however, the camera got knocked pretty hard against a rock wall and now has a crack in the front plate. I've sealed it up and it hasn't affected the camera's performance, but it's almost certainly voided the warranty. Working around the malfunction is no big deal to me, but I do get a bit irked when I read threads, even well-meaning ones, that suggest that all cases are user error. Yours isn't bad at all, but some previous threads have been incredibly rude.

QuoteQuote:
Have you tried the tripod test? The problem with any handheld test is that you cannot rule out the possibility of shake blurring as opposed to SR blurring.
I have not tried your tripod test, but the clincher for me is this: When I shoot at the "problem" shutter speeds, handheld, with the SR disabled, I have no problem getting sharp images consistently. When I do the exact same thing with SR on, there is a consistent image-doubling effect. The only variable is the activation of SR.

QuoteQuote:
I haven't yet seen blurred pictures that were taken on a tripod or using a soft bag to steady the camera.

Regards.
I'm glad to hear that. That's what tripods are for, after all.
05-13-2010, 11:21 PM   #23
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THE Kx DEFINATELY HAS A POOR IMAGE STABILISATION. I COULD USE A SONY A350 AT 300M WITHOUT ANY PROBLEMS.(.HANDHELD). THE Kx SEEMS GREAT IF YOUR AT 300 MIL AND YOUR SUBJECT IS WELL LIT AND TEN METERS AWAY, BUT TRY ANY CLOSE UP SHOTS USING SMALL KIT LENS AND YOU WILL HAVE TROUBLE GETTING A SHARP SHOT. THE OTHER MAIN PROBLEM IS THE OVER EXPOSING OF MOST WHITE OBJECTS, BIRD FEATHERS ETC. SOMETIMES I HAVE TO PUT IN -3 EV COMP. BUT THIS TENDS TO DARKEN ANY SHADOW AREAS. YOU CAN GET AROUND THIS IN A STUDIO BUT ITS MUCH HARDER IN THE BUSH. WHEN THE CAMERA GETS IT RIGHT, GREAT SHARP IMAGES. PERCENTAGE OF SHARP HANDHELD SHOTS IN MY ESTIMATE WOULD BE WELL UNDER 90%.

05-14-2010, 12:24 AM   #24
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QuoteOriginally posted by nesnah53 Quote
THE Kx DEFINATELY HAS A POOR IMAGE STABILISATION. I COULD USE A SONY A350 AT 300M WITHOUT ANY PROBLEMS.(.HANDHELD). THE Kx SEEMS GREAT IF YOUR AT 300 MIL AND YOUR SUBJECT IS WELL LIT AND TEN METERS AWAY, BUT TRY ANY CLOSE UP SHOTS USING SMALL KIT LENS AND YOU WILL HAVE TROUBLE GETTING A SHARP SHOT. THE OTHER MAIN PROBLEM IS THE OVER EXPOSING OF MOST WHITE OBJECTS, BIRD FEATHERS ETC. SOMETIMES I HAVE TO PUT IN -3 EV COMP. BUT THIS TENDS TO DARKEN ANY SHADOW AREAS. YOU CAN GET AROUND THIS IN A STUDIO BUT ITS MUCH HARDER IN THE BUSH. WHEN THE CAMERA GETS IT RIGHT, GREAT SHARP IMAGES. PERCENTAGE OF SHARP HANDHELD SHOTS IN MY ESTIMATE WOULD BE WELL UNDER 90%.
I would like to show you an image taken with Kx by a friend of mine, she was on the second day learning to use a DSLR . She is a P&S person and seldom uses camera .
The shot was hand-held with the kit lens 18-55 in AV mode and +1 EV.


Last edited by Ken T; 05-14-2010 at 12:31 AM.
05-14-2010, 12:54 AM   #25
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Hi to all,

Right now I have a pentax k-x and a sigma dp2. With the dp2 I can take SHARP picture even with 1/20 sec ALWAYS.

With the pentax k-x I CAN'T take sharp picture very often and with shutter speed down to 1/125 - 1/160 sec..

This is not an user error, this is clearly a BAD camera design. And the sigma doesn't have the SR..!!!

I will post comparative pics between the two camera as soon as I can! To me the k-x have simply a bad design in it's floating sensor and SR.
05-14-2010, 04:17 AM   #26
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The K-x is my first dlsr. I am not an expert, but do have a lot of my common sense, and have to say that I am really disappointed in its sr. I can really tell the difference as my panasonic p&s lets me take pics at much slower shutter speeds. Since so many of my shots are of moving kids the sr doesnt matter anyway, but it is my biggest complaint about the kx. I'm not a pro, but it sure seems like that to me, suppose I could get more scientific about it.
05-14-2010, 04:41 AM   #27
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QuoteOriginally posted by nesnah53 Quote
THE Kx DEFINATELY HAS A POOR IMAGE STABILISATION. I COULD USE A SONY A350 AT 300M WITHOUT ANY PROBLEMS.(.HANDHELD). THE Kx SEEMS GREAT IF YOUR AT 300 MIL AND YOUR SUBJECT IS WELL LIT AND TEN METERS AWAY, BUT TRY ANY CLOSE UP SHOTS USING SMALL KIT LENS AND YOU WILL HAVE TROUBLE GETTING A SHARP SHOT. THE OTHER MAIN PROBLEM IS THE OVER EXPOSING OF MOST WHITE OBJECTS, BIRD FEATHERS ETC. SOMETIMES I HAVE TO PUT IN -3 EV COMP. BUT THIS TENDS TO DARKEN ANY SHADOW AREAS. YOU CAN GET AROUND THIS IN A STUDIO BUT ITS MUCH HARDER IN THE BUSH. WHEN THE CAMERA GETS IT RIGHT, GREAT SHARP IMAGES. PERCENTAGE OF SHARP HANDHELD SHOTS IN MY ESTIMATE WOULD BE WELL UNDER 90%.
Advice 1: Work on technique. If you can't get 90% sharp handheld shots with the K-x, either your technique needs work or you're using it in unreasonable conditions.

Advice 2: Stay away from the caps lock button.
05-14-2010, 04:50 AM   #28
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QuoteOriginally posted by malmstrom Quote
Hi to all,

Right now I have a pentax k-x and a sigma dp2. With the dp2 I can take SHARP picture even with 1/20 sec ALWAYS.

With the pentax k-x I CAN'T take sharp picture very often and with shutter speed down to 1/125 - 1/160 sec..

This is not an user error, this is clearly a BAD camera design. And the sigma doesn't have the SR..!!!

I will post comparative pics between the two camera as soon as I can! To me the k-x have simply a bad design in it's floating sensor and SR.
QuoteOriginally posted by Genshu Quote
The K-x is my first dlsr. I am not an expert, but do have a lot of my common sense, and have to say that I am really disappointed in its sr. I can really tell the difference as my panasonic p&s lets me take pics at much slower shutter speeds. I remember handholding my old Sony and Canon p+s cameras for exposures approaching a second, something that I just can't do with any DSLR. Since so many of my shots are of moving kids the sr doesnt matter anyway, but it is my biggest complaint about the kx. I'm not a pro, but it sure seems like that to me, suppose I could get more scientific about it.
Both of you are used to compact-form-factor, mirrorless cameras. So let's be clear about this: it's generally easier to handhold such cameras at low shutter speeds. Good DSLR use tends to require more careful technique. Unless your hands are particularly shaky, you should be able to take sharp photos at the wide end of the zoom at 1/20 with no SR at all, never mind with SR on.

After you get used to handholding a DSLR well, handholding a compact properly starts to feel weird. The point is that they're surprisingly different in required technique and behavior and a lot of first-time DSLR owners jump to conclusions that their camera sucks because they're not expecting the differences in how it works, the more subtle but fundamental differences that you'll hardly ever read about in any camera review.
05-14-2010, 05:31 AM   #29
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QuoteOriginally posted by malmstrom Quote
Hi to all,

Right now I have a pentax k-x and a sigma dp2. With the dp2 I can take SHARP picture even with 1/20 sec ALWAYS.
First thing to note is that the DP2 has much less pixels (5MP), so it's more forgiving than the K-x (12MP). Secondly, the DP2 has a fixed lens at 40mm eq. while the K-x kit lens is a 28-85mm eq. And handholdability will vary with the focal length used.
05-14-2010, 06:35 AM   #30
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There have been many earlier postsin this thread, with sometimes confusing, opposite statements. I noted that two relevant articles by www.Slrgear.com on shake reduction (SR), or image stabilisation (IS), seemed to be ignored despite some worthwhile results:
How to Read Image Stabilization Test Results - SLRgear.com!
Image Stabilization Test: Olympus E-520 SLR Body - SLRgear.com!

Some conclusisons of Slrgear.com tests included:
- there was little difference between SR On and SR Off at shutter speed faster than 1/FL where FL is the focal length;
- the camera SR systems achieved greater shake reduction at shorter focal lengths than at longer ones;
- most lens-based systems gave a trend in the other direction showing more improvement at longer focal lengths;

These results were obtained with an Olympus E520, and would need to be tested thoroughly with a Pentax body.

Food for thoughts ....

Last edited by hcc; 05-14-2010 at 06:36 AM. Reason: Typos
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