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View Poll Results: How long will you wait for a Pentax full-frame camera?
I've already left for FF with another brand. 73.20%
Until the end of 2010. 125.48%
Until the end of 2011. 156.85%
If I leave Pentax, it will be for other reasons. 5424.66%
I have no plans of leaving. 13159.82%
Voters: 219. You may not vote on this poll

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05-31-2010, 10:27 PM   #61
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QuoteOriginally posted by Pentaxor Quote
for the purpose of achieving images that an APS-C dlsr can't deliver in certain situations and events that an FF can.
Seriously, like what?

I just spent several hours enjoying a wonderful photo blog by a young Japanese photojournalist who uses a Canon 5D extensively, as well as a few 35mm film bodies (and even a Holga).

Eastbound

While I came to respect the quality of Canon's optics, there were hardly any photos in his whole collection which I believe (technically) I couldn't achieve with my K-x, or even a Canon APS-C equivalent body.

Of course, I could not match his artistic skills and his sensitivity to his subject, but there was nothing in his images that highlighted any deficiency of APS-C relative to FF. I think that is likely to be the case for a lot of photography and a lot of photographers.

06-01-2010, 12:17 AM   #62
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QuoteOriginally posted by rawr Quote
Seriously, like what?

I just spent several hours enjoying a wonderful photo blog by a young Japanese photojournalist who uses a Canon 5D extensively, as well as a few 35mm film bodies (and even a Holga).

Eastbound

While I came to respect the quality of Canon's optics, there were hardly any photos in his whole collection which I believe (technically) I couldn't achieve with my K-x, or even a Canon APS-C equivalent body.

Of course, I could not match his artistic skills and his sensitivity to his subject, but there was nothing in his images that highlighted any deficiency of APS-C relative to FF. I think that is likely to be the case for a lot of photography and a lot of photographers.
enumerate the differences between a FF and an APS-C, and you will get the answer.
06-01-2010, 03:28 AM   #63
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QuoteOriginally posted by rawr Quote
...
While I came to respect the quality of Canon's optics, there were hardly any photos in his whole collection which I believe (technically) I couldn't achieve with my K-x, or even a Canon APS-C equivalent body.

Of course, I could not match his artistic skills and his sensitivity to his subject, but there was nothing in his images that highlighted any deficiency of APS-C relative to FF. I think that is likely to be the case for a lot of photography and a lot of photographers.
I think, your question is already indicative of the answer. There will certainly be some photogs, who need FF.

Nevertheless, the large majority will get all the results they want, from APS-C or similar sensors and I just wish for Pentax to deliver more lenses for the existing system, instead of investing into yet another one. The 645D already needs a lot of Pentax ressources.

Ben
06-01-2010, 04:00 AM   #64
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Pentaxor, I believe the results of the poll are showing that the majority of the group do not care about an FF. Any of the arguments you can give will not change our mind.
You should take all the gears you have , enjoy them and explore their quality

A camera is just a tool.
I was in another group discussion about woodworking and we have exactly the same kind of discussion . Peoples rave about cabinet saw with 3HP. But most of the group members , we have contractor saw witrh 1.75HP. But the 2 have exactly the same function , cutting wood. And finaly their creation was not better than the any others peoples because again it's just a tool. Creativity is a lot more important
Good luck and if Pentax come with one, hope you will buy one

06-01-2010, 09:52 AM   #65
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Having seen some images taken with a 5DII and a 7D, I studied them and concluded which was which. Turns out my preconceptions were wrong and that the 7D looked better.

Here's a simple reality: Sensors are getting better, and will continue to do so. More importantly, in-camera PROCESSORS will start to seriously change photography.

A 1/2.3" sensor compact (dare I say even a phone cam), will equal a 3Dx in 8-10 years. ISO, DOF with any current lens, the lot.

The smart makers will concentrate on patenting technologies for the masses, not wasting effort milking us narrow band of enthusiasts.
06-01-2010, 10:20 AM   #66
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QuoteOriginally posted by bobmaxja Quote
Pentaxor, I believe the results of the poll are showing that the majority of the group do not care about an FF. Any of the arguments you can give will not change our mind.
You should take all the gears you have , enjoy them and explore their quality

A camera is just a tool.
I was in another group discussion about woodworking and we have exactly the same kind of discussion . Peoples rave about cabinet saw with 3HP. But most of the group members , we have contractor saw witrh 1.75HP. But the 2 have exactly the same function , cutting wood. And finaly their creation was not better than the any others peoples because again it's just a tool. Creativity is a lot more important
Good luck and if Pentax come with one, hope you will buy one
Bob, this is nothing to do about me trying to influence others on changing their minds but rather me having the need for a FF dslr. and I quote "I hate selling my Pentax FF lenses, but I really need an FF body really soon."

this is my need and mine alone and wouldn't care if the majority are contented with an APS-C camera. rawr however is more likely trying to influence people like me on being contented with an APS-C dslr. don't worry, I had used both systems and truth be told that I can get excellent images from both systems. but just because that I'm able to get excellent images on 1 system, doesn't mean that it had already fulfilled my needs for a certain image. if I would give an example, it is more like me ordering a porterhouse steak, but instead I given a Sirloin. Sirloin is good,it is still a steak but I still ordered and needed a porterhouse.

furthermore, what's in it for me if Pentax will never make a FF dslr? the poll asks the question on how long would "one" want to wait for a fullframe Pentax dslr. what is the sense of owning fullframe lenses if you can't use them as is. where is the sense of making a fullframe lens if you dont make a ff camera? if Pentax can't provide one, is it wrong to buy other brands which have something to offer that you want and need?

may I then ask the question, are you willing to swap to an m4/3 system from an APS-C dslr, since an m4/3 is as capable as that of an APS-C dlsr of producing stunning images?
06-01-2010, 10:22 AM   #67
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QuoteOriginally posted by Unsinkable II Quote
Having seen some images taken with a 5DII and a 7D, I studied them and concluded which was which. Turns out my preconceptions were wrong and that the 7D looked better.

Here's a simple reality: Sensors are getting better, and will continue to do so. More importantly, in-camera PROCESSORS will start to seriously change photography.

A 1/2.3" sensor compact (dare I say even a phone cam), will equal a 3Dx in 8-10 years. ISO, DOF with any current lens, the lot.

The smart makers will concentrate on patenting technologies for the masses, not wasting effort milking us narrow band of enthusiasts.
but what about FOV?
06-01-2010, 11:04 AM   #68
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Has gone for Canon 5D while still keeping little da limited pancakes.

06-01-2010, 01:11 PM   #69
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QuoteOriginally posted by Pentaxor Quote
Bob, this is nothing to do about me trying to influence others on changing their minds but rather me having the need for a FF dslr. and I quote "I hate selling my Pentax FF lenses, but I really need an FF body really soon."?
Pentaxor... I believe you when you say you need a FF camera. After all, you know your needs the best. But - just for the sake of discussion - exactly what kinds of subjects and situations are you referring to that require FF? Mind you, I am not arguing with you or saying you're wrong. But it could be interesting - and even educational - find out where APS-C comes up short for you.

QuoteOriginally posted by Pentaxor Quote
may I then ask the question, are you willing to swap to an m4/3 system from an APS-C dslr, since an m4/3 is as capable as that of an APS-C dlsr of producing stunning images?
Well, in my case, I added a micro four-thirds camera (an Olympus E-PL1) and a couple of micro four-thirds lenses to my kit. I doesn't replace my APS-C equipment, but complements it nicely. There are situations - particularly informal family gatherings or outdoor hikes, etc - in which one wants and needs something smaller and lighter than a DSLR but can still deliver the goods.
06-01-2010, 02:10 PM   #70
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FF is not important to me.
06-01-2010, 05:55 PM   #71
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QuoteOriginally posted by Biro Quote
Pentaxor... I believe you when you say you need a FF camera. After all, you know your needs the best. But - just for the sake of discussion - exactly what kinds of subjects and situations are you referring to that require FF? Mind you, I am not arguing with you or saying you're wrong. But it could be interesting - and even educational - find out where APS-C comes up short for you.
one of which is the VF. the difference between the the FF and APS-C VF is undeniable, especially for focusing and composition. the APS-C VF is just small for me, even if I got a magnifying eyecup, splitscreen, and LV mode which are really helpful tools but it is still small. some people will argue that that is fine by them but I'm not those people. but the biggest difference for me would be the FOV of a 35mm camera. for some people this is not an issue, for me it is. you may say that a 55/58mm lens could be an FOV substitute for an 85mm, but the question is, is a 55mm really an 85mm? an 85mm a 135mm? the obvious answer is NO. I got 50mm, 85/90mm and 135mm lenses that I use frequently and always wished that I had more extra width or length on the sides (2 sides or on all sides). that's why you see some people complain about the lens being too long for certain use. mind you that having a wider substitute lens isn't really the same on having a natural length lens. you have to deal with distance with the foreground and the background as well, not to mention the magnification. of course you can re-compose which can be a bother if the situation doesn't permit it. cropping an image is another way, but still not as effective, optimized nor convenient of that of having to use a particular lens for such purpose (lens variation and specialty). I shoot images with significant backgrounds too at a certain distance and focal length.

now as far as lens substitution goes, this can only be as good as to what particular lens (if they are really the same or as good) you are going to use as a substitute and this includes FOV as well. I would highly argue that a DA*55/1.4 would be as great as that of an FA*85/1.4. so an APS-C dslr undeniably cuts off the whole potentiality of a Full-Frame lens and it's needed FOV. some people will argue that vignetting in a FF dslr would be more obvious, but the point is, I don't consider it an issue for me, nor did I find it to be distracting enough for certain FF lenses.

anyway, it's good that you are happy with a m4/3. but I dont think that you primarily bought the camera for it's small sensor size but rather the camera's small physical size that makes it handy. personally, I wont buy a camera just for the size alone, but rather buy a camera with a small size that is convenient and sensor that is big enough to fulfill my needs. that is why I would rather prefer the NEX3/5 or NX10 over the m4/3 when it comes to physical size and sensor size.

I guess some people forget that others have particular FF lenses they want to use as FF, not cropped.

btw, recently there was a particular scenario where I wanted to shoot a big bird with my 85mm. the tight space prevented me to move back a lil further. in the end, it came a bit too long for what I wanted to get. the needed FOV could and would had made a hell of a difference of nailing that shot.

Last edited by Pentaxor; 06-01-2010 at 06:38 PM.
06-01-2010, 07:38 PM   #72
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Okay, I can see your arguments, Pentaxor. A lot of it has to do with one's own shooting style and subjects. It's funny - but undeniably true - that little things that others may have no problem with can be total non-starters for others.

If Pentax ever came out with an FF camera... I wonder if I could afford Pentax lenses for it. I'm sure I wouldn't be satisfied with kit lenses. But I already have problems affording better Pentax glass now. I've already been priced out of the DA* and FA Limited market. But I'm still hoping I can swing a set of four DA Limiteds before it's too late.

What you say about viewfinders is true. But, for me, Pentax's APS-C viewfinders are fine. Before I bought into Pentax, I checked out some other brands and their VF's were worse. I ruled out the Olympus 4/3 E-system DSLRs for the same reason (although the VF in an E3 is huge). But I wouldn't tolerate viewfinders any smaller than Pentax's.

As for my E-PL1... you're right, my primary goal was to buy something small and light enough for certain situations. But I didn't buy other micro four-thirds cameras until the arrival of the E-PL1 because I wasn't satisfied with the image quality. The E-PL1 is the first micro four-thirds camera to win me over in that department. High ISO performance is better than my K200D (at least shooting jpgs) - and it's not just noise reduction. The entire-jpg engine algorithm is superior to my K200D.

Now, I'm not trying to convince anyone to shift to micro four-thirds or any other mirrorless system. I have no plans to give up my DSLR kit any time soon. But the E-PL1 is the first camera of its type that, for me, requires no excuses in terms of IQ. An excellent second camera.
06-01-2010, 08:35 PM   #73
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I'm happy with my Pentax crop.

In the film days, I used 35 mm and Medium Format.

Pentax has a new medium format 645. The sensor is if memory serves around 1.7 times the size of a digital FF and it has 40 MP's.

Why unless you do primarily sports photography would you leave Pentax.

Yes the 645D is not yet available outside Japan (temp. situation IMO) and it costs 9 grand...pricey.

But the Nikon and Canon top of the line FF are pricey.

I think at the top level of crop cameras and FF...the difference is more to do with the photographer, then the format.
06-01-2010, 08:53 PM   #74
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QuoteOriginally posted by Biro Quote
Okay, I can see your arguments, Pentaxor. A lot of it has to do with one's own shooting style and subjects. It's funny - but undeniably true - that little things that others may have no problem with can be total non-starters for others.

If Pentax ever came out with an FF camera... I wonder if I could afford Pentax lenses for it. I'm sure I wouldn't be satisfied with kit lenses. But I already have problems affording better Pentax glass now. I've already been priced out of the DA* and FA Limited market. But I'm still hoping I can swing a set of four DA Limiteds before it's too late.

What you say about viewfinders is true. But, for me, Pentax's APS-C viewfinders are fine. Before I bought into Pentax, I checked out some other brands and their VF's were worse. I ruled out the Olympus 4/3 E-system DSLRs for the same reason (although the VF in an E3 is huge). But I wouldn't tolerate viewfinders any smaller than Pentax's.

As for my E-PL1... you're right, my primary goal was to buy something small and light enough for certain situations. But I didn't buy other micro four-thirds cameras until the arrival of the E-PL1 because I wasn't satisfied with the image quality. The E-PL1 is the first micro four-thirds camera to win me over in that department. High ISO performance is better than my K200D (at least shooting jpgs) - and it's not just noise reduction. The entire-jpg engine algorithm is superior to my K200D.

Now, I'm not trying to convince anyone to shift to micro four-thirds or any other mirrorless system. I have no plans to give up my DSLR kit any time soon. But the E-PL1 is the first camera of its type that, for me, requires no excuses in terms of IQ. An excellent second camera.

Biro, glad that you understand my situation. camera sensor size preference as you conclusively said is also based on type of shooting style and subject. as you would notice my signature, all of the K-mount lenses that I own are Full-frame lenses and FF-compatible except 2 lenses (the kitlens and the DA12-24), and where the WR kitlens is certainly a goner. and an upcoming future purchase is also an FF lens. so that alone explains my major needs obviously. I wouldn't had gotten these FF lenses just for the sake of using them exclusively on an APS-C dslr. I got them with the hope and anticipation that Pentax would build an FF dslr. I just hope that if Pentax would release an FF dslr, they wouldn't scrap off the screwdrive AF, otherwise most of those AF FF lens would lose a portion of their usefulness. these are great lenses which are quite not easy to find and would be hard to let go if ever Pentax doesn't deliver on providing an FF dslr. I may only get 3 or 5 FF lenses on another camera in return, but would be enough to cover my needs.

I'm not against a mirrorless system, as long as they have an effective VF, FF sensor, great IQ, and K-mount/AF compatible.

Last edited by Pentaxor; 06-01-2010 at 08:59 PM.
06-02-2010, 03:16 AM   #75
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I have all "three amigos" - FA Limited lens lineup ant they are the main reason why I am still using Pentax cameras. I hope that Pentax will either come-up with FF solution or with APS-C K-7 upgrade, which will drastically improve in high ISO department - I feel more ant more frustrated with very limited K-7 High ISO abilities... Or should I call it "medium ISO capabilities", because even at ISO400 K-7 doesn't look good... I think it is ridiculous when entry level camera gives much better image quality compared to the top of the line camera...
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