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06-08-2010, 02:01 PM   #31
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QuoteOriginally posted by kricha6431 Quote
I meant they have NEVER DOWSED THEMSELVES (PENTAX) IN THE DIGITAL CAMCORDER AREA, Not some 30 - 50 year ago Cam
From Jogiba, another member:



06-08-2010, 02:38 PM   #32
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Wow. I am amazed (not in a good way) by the people who are so dismissive of video in a DSLR.

Telling people to "get a camcorder" just proves that you don't understand the needs of motion filmmakers. Believe me, as a filmmaker, I can tell you that most camcorders are terrible. Sure, they have good ergonomics. They have purpose-built features (like sound ... but wait, so does the K7). But they do not deliver the image quality that is possible with video from a DSLR.

Regarding the ergonomic question, actually, a DSLR (without a lens) looks an awful lot like an ARRI or an AATON camera without a lens or film mag. After all, these are all just "light tight boxes". The tradition in filmmaking is to build up the rest of the camera as needed. Hand grips, rails and matteboxes, etc. are all optional, and they aren't all used at the same time. A DSLR actually fits that production paradigm quite well.

How does having good video on a DSLR affect you, the non-video shooter? It sells more cameras. Often to people who wouldn't necessarily have bought that camera without video. And often to film production companies that will buy a number of cameras. Selling more cameras = a healthier Pentax + more money for R&D + lower prices on cameras that sell more units + more interest in making and selling lenses for those cameras from Pentax and third parties.

Having video on a DSLR does not hurt a purist photographer.

Nor is video "incompatible" with still photography. You will note that the features people are asking for in video are core photography features. The ability to control aperture. The ability to control shutter speed. The ability to control ISO. The ability to control how many frames per second are being shot. Not one of these features is in conflict with photography. They are the SAME in cinematography as in photography.

Frankly, the simplest answer is for Pentax to put the "movie" mode into the Drive mode selector. Shooting a movie is really just shooting a bunch of stills faster. So, choose from Single Frame, Continuous (5 fps), or Motion Picture (24 or 30). Leave every other control and setting on the camera "as is." Then the filmmakers get full control over aperture, shutter, ISO, etc. Just like the still photographer.
06-08-2010, 03:42 PM   #33
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QuoteOriginally posted by filmamigo Quote
Wow. I am amazed (not in a good way) by the people who are so dismissive of video in a DSLR. [...] Having video on a DSLR does not hurt a purist photographer.
Amen! As mentioned by someone in another thread, people sound like when live-view was invented (now an essential feature) or propably have sounded when slrīs became digital. Itīs just progress, plane and simple. Now that video is here, it wonīt go away. A whole lot of people have realized the potential of it and want it to be the best it can be, I canīt see what is wrong with that. As mentioned above, the requested features are mostly the same as in photography.

Ignore video if you donīt plan to use it, but please stop the "get a camcorder"-BS because clearly you do not know what you are talking about (and refuse to even try to understand or read what the video-people are explaining about the issue over and over again). Sorry if I sound a bit rude, but the ignorance of some folks is simply frustrating. I donīt understand why there has to be some sort of war between photogs and videographers, when everything we ask for would just help to get Pentax more sales
06-08-2010, 03:48 PM   #34
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QuoteQuote:
Slr's are meant for taking Pictures, and TAKING PICTURES ONLY, and if you want Video, Buy a Camcorder.
.
Oh ok, so when I buy my consumer camcorder for Ģ800 i'll also buy a 35mm depth of field adaptor (so I can make shots that dont look like crap), a decent lens to fit on that 35mm adaptor, and a gym membership, so I have the strength to carry around such a heavy and cumbersome rig. Anyone that says DSLR's are not ergonomically designed for video, ha- ever hand held an ex1 with a 35mm mount?
(tbh neither have I but it sure looks heavy...)

While i'm at it i'll invest in some 1k lights as i'm going to have to light my scene pretty well to avoid the noise i'm gonna get if I shoot anything above iso 640 on my small chip camera (not to mention i'm gonna lose 2 stops with my depth of field adaptor)
so there we have it, either I get pretty poor (and kinda expensive) results from a consumer camera like the hv40, or I spend Ģ8k on an EX1 and have to carry the bloody thing round

or I buy a HDSLR for under Ģ1k and use the lenses i've already got, including fish eyes, macro's, and super telephotos, giving me shots I could never get with a standard camera- maybe i'll put a follow focus/matte box on it when I have time to set it up and make it more weildy with a shoulder rig, or maybe i'll just stick a 40mm pancake on it when I want something that can fit in my pocket for some run and gun shooting (I like the thought of having one camera which is always in my bag which can shoot stills and video)

it surprises me how much everyone seems to be adverse to video- maybe it's because i'm in the 10% of people who not only will use the video feature, but will buy an SLR purely because of it's video capabilities, and it surprises me that people would equate HDSLR video to point and shoot
If I want to shoot, I don't know, a boring video with some children running around disneyland then yeah I might use a camcorder, but for something more cinematic, i'm going to use a DSLR- DSLR's have been described as 'digital film', not video, film.

So "get a 5d mk2 I hear you say"
Yeah, would love to, but
1. I have a few nice pentax lenses, dont really want to have to spend Ģ100's on every new lens, where as now I can pop down the camera shop with Ģ50 and get a really nice pentax M
2. I like pentax bodies, more so than canon. I wish the 5d had wireless flash control, wish the 7d didnt have 18mp, wish the T2i wasn't so awful to hold, and don't really like the feel of the nikon d300 I also shoot with, and besides nikon are awful for video on anything other than the D3s
3. shake reduction- not only does it significantly reduce the cost of glass, it also means my primes and old school M glass is stabilised, shooting with a 50mm 1.4 stabilised means I can shoot basically in no light at all (noise control on kx much better than canon 7d too) or I can get interesting shots of people moving about in the frame (which funnily enough is what got me into videography)
stabilization also works really well for video

I dont want to jump ship- but I might have to, i could get a GH1 in a month or so and a K mount adaptor, but the K8 will really say what pentax's plans are in terms of video, and if it doesn't completely rock my world then I will have to get a 7d (which will inevitably be discounted by then)
Pentax have really shot themselves in the foot, manual control on the k7 would have stopped so many people jumping on the t2i, personally I couldn't cope with a t2i, and the 7d was too expensive- but the k8 will have to be some camera to stop me from jumping, and if it doesn't have 60fps, then see ya
Pentax could (and should) have more market share within video if they'd released a 7d grade video camera and marketed it as a shake reduced video cam with a plethora of cheap M lenses, but they didn't, and it pains me to think what pentax could have been right now, photokina can't come quick enough, but it will still have to be something impressive to stop me jumping


Last edited by clark; 06-08-2010 at 04:10 PM.
06-08-2010, 04:04 PM   #35
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Yeah I'm a DSLR video convert. At first I firmly felt this was a bad idea. Not now.

I'll rarely use it for personal stuff but my K-x has gotten me 2 jobs recently and one of them was worth 5x more than the camera cost me. More than half the work is still images that will be done with the K20D's but if I couldn't offer the video component, I wouldn't have gotten the work.

So count me in the group that is happy to have the feature.
06-08-2010, 04:22 PM   #36
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the phillip bloom article that was posted up earlier in the thread- there's no mention of pentax in there, not because of fanboyism, but because of pentax's lack of making a comparable video camera yet- and phillip bloom's personal recommendation has probably sold 1000's of T2i's to indie film makers, and to think, if the KX was as good for video as the canon, then he would have been recommending the pentax

pentax really missed the ball on this one, and even if they do make a great k8, it might already be too late for them- accessories have been made with canon in mind, if they don't fit the k8, are zacuto really going to redesign them?
06-09-2010, 02:33 AM   #37
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Hey, here's a novel idea, since everyone is making this about "the needs of motion filmmakers" now. Put the sensor in a feasible body. What's that you say? Now we can charge more, for the same camera in a different body, and still get people to buy them? And they can be used for more than 10-20 minutes at a time? Wow, now that's a way for a company to make some money. Alas, dear sir, no, can't make enough that way. Stick it in a camera body half crippled, and leak it to them slightly less crippled than the one before, and let the sheeple buy many revisions of the same shit, until we get it "right". They'll love us for saving them all the money of buying camera after camera, plus all the ridiculous accessories "motion filmmakers" will have to add on. Of course, by the time that happens, the camera they really wanted will have come down in price to far below what they have paid for all of ours.
06-09-2010, 04:05 PM   #38
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QuoteQuote:
They'll love us for saving them all the money of buying camera after camera, plus all the ridiculous accessories "motion filmmakers" will have to add on. Of course, by the time that happens, the camera they really wanted will have come down in price to far below what they have paid for all of ours.
when it comes to video, you have to shoot with 2 cams minimum, maybe even 3 or more

so having more than 1 video cam in your bag is not a big deal, or even a bad idea

and just like different lenses are used for different jobs, in terms of video- different cameras are good for different things

so in the future I can fully see myself shooting with a 7d, a pentax k9 (or whatever), and a HD cam like an ex3, all used for different purposes


and for the record the 5d is about as pefect a HDSLR can be right now, and yeah it would be nice is rolling shutter wasn't an issue (although unless you're filming transformers style action then it really isnt a huge problem, low light noise on consumer grade cams is a much more obvious problem than rolling shutter imo), lack of audio monitoring- that's fine, I record using an external recorder anyway (which gives me more flexibility anyway so i'm fine with that) and well that's about it really other than the moire- which can be solved by controlling your shooting, just like you control flare in your stills by not shooting into the sun

06-09-2010, 04:14 PM   #39
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QuoteOriginally posted by Jodokast96 Quote
Now we can charge more, for the same camera in a different body, and still get people to buy them?
Do you have any idea how expensive 35mm film cameras are to rent? you can't even buy one if you wanted to- it's money you never ever see again
and I'm sure I don't have to repeat how much cheaper a HDSLR is than a comparible HD cam (and how much better they are than a consumer cam), shooting on a SLR is like shooting 35mm, but cheaper, and easier (know anyone that does colour timing for 35mm??)


It's only pentax and nikon that have 'sub par' video SLR's at the moment, canon have an almost perfect SLR at all levels- it does pain me to say that, but it's true
the only problems with canon cameras (other than the fact they're expensive, ugly, and I own no lenses for them) are intrinsic to the DSLR format, so there will never be fixed, people know that- they shoot with it in mind, feature films are being made on 5 and 7d's, rolling shutter and moire doesn't seem to bother them

"so why dont they full those APSC sensors in movie camera's"
well they have, it's called RED- and why don't you look at the price of those things
and they can't shoot stills
and they still need Ģ100's of pounds worth of accessories to make them weildy
plus red code raw will fill my harddrive like nothing on earth
06-09-2010, 04:55 PM   #40
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QuoteOriginally posted by dande Quote
Okay, I admit. This is probably a very over-discussed topic, but still, it bothers me way too much, not to talk about it again, and again. I was and still am a Pentax addict photo- and cinematographer, so when the news came with the new K-7 and it's video feature, I couldn't resist to upgrade my gear. I've had some bad feelings about the lack of manual controls while in movie recording mode, but I've thought that following Canon's lead, Pentax will also release a manual mode firmware soon. But they haven't. Pentax haven't done that favor for us photo- and videographers yet, and I am close to believing, that they will never. The last firmware update was in February, and Pentax haven't issued any news, statements, anything about upcoming firmware releases, also the possibility of a manual movie mode. So, I - while still have some belief in Pentax - start to believe, that Pentax will release a new camera this year, with updated movie recording. I know, that people are capable of producing nice results with auto ISO and auto shutter, but I just came from a client, where I spent most time tinkering with the AE-L to get rid of the flickering or the impossible amount of noise. I hope that I am wrong from the beginning to the end, and hope that Pentax will communicate more about their current status on the K-x and K-7 firmwares.
06-09-2010, 05:01 PM   #41
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QuoteOriginally posted by filmamigo Quote


Wow. I am amazed (not in a good way) by the people who are so dismissive of video in a DSLR.

Telling people to "get a camcorder" just proves that you don't understand the needs of motion filmmakers. Believe me, as a filmmaker, I can tell you that most camcorders are terrible. Sure, they have good ergonomics. They have purpose-built features (like sound ... but wait, so does the K7). But they do not deliver the image quality that is possible with video from a DSLR.

Regarding the ergonomic question, actually, a DSLR (without a lens) looks an awful lot like an ARRI or an AATON camera without a lens or film mag. After all, these are all just "light tight boxes". The tradition in filmmaking is to build up the rest of the camera as needed. Hand grips, rails and matteboxes, etc. are all optional, and they aren't all used at the same time. A DSLR actually fits that production paradigm quite well.

How does having good video on a DSLR affect you, the non-video shooter? It sells more cameras. Often to people who wouldn't necessarily have bought that camera without video. And often to film production companies that will buy a number of cameras. Selling more cameras = a healthier Pentax + more money for R&D + lower prices on cameras that sell more units + more interest in making and selling lenses for those cameras from Pentax and third parties.

Having video on a DSLR does not hurt a purist photographer.

Nor is video "incompatible" with still photography. You will note that the features people are asking for in video are core photography features. The ability to control aperture. The ability to control shutter speed. The ability to control ISO. The ability to control how many frames per second are being shot. Not one of these features is in conflict with photography. They are the SAME in cinematography as in photography.

Frankly, the simplest answer is for Pentax to put the "movie" mode into the Drive mode selector. Shooting a movie is really just shooting a bunch of stills faster. So, choose from Single Frame, Continuous (5 fps), or Motion Picture (24 or 30). Leave every other control and setting on the camera "as is." Then the filmmakers get full control over aperture, shutter, ISO, etc. Just like the still photographer.
Do you mind if I PM you from time to time with some simple questions? I have a Kx, but I've never dismissed the video capabilities:

It's just that I didn't buy the camera for that, but would like to learn what it's capable of.
06-09-2010, 07:08 PM   #42
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I think you missed the point. What's stopping Nikon, Pentax, Canon, or Olympus from taking the exact same guts and putting it in a real body for the same price? Nothing. Nikon and Pentax I can sort of see, but Canon, and I think Olympus, do already make camcorders anyway, so another body is no big deal for them in that regard. Panasonic is doing it, and as long as the guts are up to par, should blow all of this current stuff away.
06-10-2010, 11:10 AM   #43
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QuoteOriginally posted by Jodokast96 Quote
I think you missed the point. What's stopping Nikon, Pentax, Canon, or Olympus from taking the exact same guts and putting it in a real body for the same price?
they would destroy their own consumer cam line- if I could get a consumer camcorder with a good sensor and good lens I would get one
oh wait, I already can- an SLR

also, glass- anything consumer cam sized is going to have a tiny/awful lens on it, so sensor is irrelevant (also lens is non removable)

admittedly they could put APSC/full frame sensors in the EX1's, and they probably will in the future, and they'll still cost Ģ10k plus and I won't buy one. Also it's real first gen tech at the minute, APCS/full frame sensors capable of recording video have never been available until now
HDSLR's are ahead of the curve compared to HDcam's, but they're designed to work together, not against- people will use SLR's in certain settings, and HDcam's in others, and film in others

it's just more options for filmmakers


hell I still shoot mini DV sometimes and splice it in if I want to use it for effect, like how it's used in American Beauty
06-10-2010, 01:16 PM   #44
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Transit: sorry, I will try to format my replies in future better.
Everybody: It is nice to see, that there are Pentaxians out there with similar thoughts about HD-DSLRs to mine. As clark told, currently Canon produces the top HD-DSLR line (the 5DMkII), but I hope the Pentax K-7 will catch up. I still hope for a firmware update.
I know, that probably I'm wrong on this issue, but I still don't get it, why Pentax cannot issue a press release whether they will make a manual mode firmware or not. Heck, I have no clue, why Pentax won't release a manual mode firmware.
06-10-2010, 01:32 PM   #45
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QuoteOriginally posted by dande Quote
While Pentax does have every right to make engineering decisions solely based on sales, this is what I fear the most. As I have stated earlier, I believe that these requests are based on reality, probably the manual control is a little bit harder to do, but writing out current shutter/ISO information, cannot be hard to do.
Also, I believe (while some photographers will oppose me on this) that introducing a manual mode firmware will drive the K-7 and also the K-x sales way up. So many people interested in cinematography, who doesn't have the money for a 7D or 5DMkII, don't want the T2i.
I really hope (and still believe in) that Pentax will release some firmware update for us, videographers too.
Welll, I think it'll be wise for Pentax to do this,as they do have a certain amount of the market that likes manual anything.

I'd be a little patient, though, if you otherwise like these machines. Putting video features in a still camera is pretty new, and this is just like Pentax's first generation of it. ( and though it has interesting potential, I'd much rather Pentax put their efforts elsewhere, come down to a choice. Probably isn't an either-or at this point, but I'd just as soon they didn't compromise *anything* else just to make the video a little better. )

You know, now that it's here: it could be interesting, but I still feel that way. I was more 'opposed' to having video at *all* when I wanted to be seeing bigger viewfinders, more specialized screens, faster AF, etc, other things which the cost and R&D of video may have gone to instead. Now that it's a done deal, well, video doesn't hurt anything but wear ant tear for the used market) . May try it one day, myself: but I'd still rather they prioritize other things if it comes down to having to choose, though.

And that Optio camcorder looks like it's destined to be a sci fi prop.

Last edited by Ratmagiclady; 06-10-2010 at 01:44 PM.
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