[codiac2600]

Silly? Is it really?

Everyone else now has 3" LCD monitors (some even at VGA resolution), LiveView function, 14-bit RAW output, multi-sensor central point AF sensor which are "looking" at f/2.8 and f/5.6 lenses, 35 or 40 or even 1,005 multi-segment metering, ultrasonic dust removal and so on..

Now you can look at the K10D, it has none of the latest things which all others has offered, namely, Canon, Nikon, Sony or even Oly. If the K10D is not considered "outdated", *what* Pentax will do for the next "update"?? (Well, you may still argue that the K10D is perfect and no update is required! LOL..)

Ok and the 40D still doesn't have weather seals, anti-shake built-in the body, wireless flash system without a specialty trigger, live view that has auto focus and any IS primes besides super-teles. I sell these things Rice High you're not gonna beat me in the features game because I can outsell Canon like nobodies business. Oh and the D300 and D3 aren't out yet so it's only competing against the A700 and 40D Ricehigh and neither of those cameras has a chance to become a great camera and the K10D has won every award possible and proves it is a great camera and not even Canon users are impressed with the 40D and that should be the first group of people impressed by the product.

[codiac2600]

Chris, thanks for your post. It is always nice to hear from those "in the know".
I can accept there are very good reasons for Pentax to not announce specific products (just as long as they are working on them!), and of course it makes sense that the Hoya business would cause delays and confusion.

I still maintain though that Pentax/Hoya's lack of visible activity, their "silence", is a bad, bad idea. OK so they shouldn't announce camera bodies if keeping them quiet gives them an advantage over the competition... but where exactly is the advantage in keeping quiet about new lenses (oh apart from the rebadged Tamron)... removing the provisional release dates from the roadmap was sensible if those dates clearly weren't going to be met, but they should at least be confirming that at some point we will see those new lenses. And it was inevitable that many people would be worried by the idea of Hoya eating Pentax... especially since we have really not seen much to confirm that Hoya is truly interested in keeping the camera division alive. Reassurances from dealers on one or two forums are nice but don't count for much, and frankly we shouldn't have to check Bloomberg for signs of life.

If you say there are new camera bodies coming then I have no reason to doubt you, and your assurances are encouraging. But... you only mentioned bodies... what about the lenses? Yes we all know Pentax cameras are very well featured compared to Canon and Nikon's offerings at a similar level... and of course most of us don't have a problem using a camera less than a year old... but what many of us do have a problem with is the range of lenses... like the fact that, four years after the release of the original *Ist D, 200mm is still the longest focal length you can buy from Pentax, or 135mm if you want a fast one.

I'm perfectly happy with my K100d, a year-old camera which is really four-year-old technology... at least happy enough that I don't feel the need to "upgrade" to a K10d and lose high-ISO performance... what I am not happy with is the glass which I can't get... and when I can see that Pentax are still serious about producing a system consisting of quality bodies and lenses, then I'll stop worrying and complaining. Yes, really.

Yes they are silent, but look at all the things they've invented and others now use? Pretty much every technology of the modern camera is something Pentax invented then was reversed engineered onto another camera just like Minoltas big ideas.

Speaking of lenses you'll be more than happy with what Pentax has to offer by January and the wait is for a complete honing of the DA* line and a few other lenses that are to be released in a decent time frame. If you weren't around for the pre-release of the first 2 DA* lenses Pentax for almost 6 months passed around a pair of working models which I had the pleasure of playing with and they took all the input from users to hone their creation before hitting the market. The same is going on right now as we speak and the input has changed a couple of finely tuned aspects of the lenses. You'll be happier in the end and Pentax won't anger too many customers by taking the time to get this right.

They also learned one valuable lesson with the first DA* lenses and that is demand outweighs production on those puppies and the same will be true of next set because they frequent this site and DPReview on a daily basis. People like Tom Lusk are people they want to attract with these new lenses and by golly they are gonna give it there all so I'm happy with a little wait because it's not like it's the end of the world if I don't have a 300mm prime in my hand, I'll just shoot with what I have till I get something new.

Silly? Is it really?

Everyone else now has 3" LCD monitors (some even at VGA resolution), LiveView function, 14-bit RAW output, multi-sensor central point AF sensor which are "looking" at f/2.8 and f/5.6 lenses, 35 or 40 or even 1,005 multi-segment metering, ultrasonic dust removal and so on..

I thought that the MZ-s was the best camera ever and, as far as I know, doesnt have all those gadgets

[Edvinas]

Silly? Is it really?

Everyone else now has 3" LCD monitors (some even at VGA resolution), LiveView function, 14-bit RAW output, multi-sensor central point AF sensor which are "looking" at f/2.8 and f/5.6 lenses, 35 or 40 or even 1,005 multi-segment metering, ultrasonic dust removal and so on..

Now you can look at the K10D, it has none of the latest things which all others has offered, namely, Canon, Nikon, Sony or even Oly. If the K10D is not considered "outdated", *what* Pentax will do for the next "update"?? (Well, you may still argue that the K10D is perfect and no update is required! LOL..)

Let's see:
3" LCD eliminates from the "up-to-date" camera list Canon 400D, Nikon D80, D4, D40x, Olympus E-400, E-410, E-510, Pentax K100D super, K10D and Sony a100.

Live View eliminates Sony a700.

Ultrasonic dust removal eliminates Canon D40, 1Ds Mark III, 1D Mark III, Nikon D300 and D3.

Multisensor central AF point eliminates remaining Olympus cameras...

And if we take into account that many of those cameras don't have in-body image stabilisation system, wireless flash control, weather sealing, exposure modes tuned to digital cameras (taking into account variable nature of ISO in digial cameras)... Well, all current cameras are completely outdated, even those which announced and not released yet.

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Last edited by Edvinas; 10-10-2007 at 06:08 AM.

[wll]

codiac2600 !

A very well written and helpful thread.

Did you hear about the new cameras from your sales rep ? I know you probably can't give details, but the new offerings sound like they will be very high end ;-)



wll

Yes they are silent, but look at all the things they've invented and others now use? Pretty much every technology of the modern camera is something Pentax invented then was reversed engineered onto another camera just like Minoltas big ideas.

I think that it is here where Pentax can make a difference in the next cameras, they have shown they can be very creative. I guess that the most interesting contributions in the next models will come from things that most of the people are not expecting rather than 10fps, full frame, cat vision ISO, slow live view, built-in cable tv...

Speaking of lenses you'll be more than happy with what Pentax has to offer by January and the wait is for a complete honing of the DA* line and a few other lenses that are to be released in a decent time frame. If you weren't around for the pre-release of the first 2 DA* lenses Pentax for almost 6 months passed around a pair of working models which I had the pleasure of playing with and they took all the input from users to hone their creation before hitting the market.

Now, I am scared, do you mean that all the problems that some people referred about IQ and QC on the last DA*s are there after listening the input of some pros?

They also learned one valuable lesson with the first DA* lenses and that is demand outweighs production on those puppies and the same will be true of next set because they frequent this site and DPReview on a daily basis. People like Tom Lusk are people they want to attract with these new lenses and by golly they are gonna give it there all so I'm happy with a little wait because it's not like it's the end of the world if I don't have a 300mm prime in my hand, I'll just shoot with what I have till I get something new.

Wise words :ugh: I really hope that the new lenses will be up to the task because the expectations are really high (tooooo much IMO) and if they dont release an outstanding product they will make themselves a bad reputation of sluggish and unreliable company. And I can see people menacing with jumping ships and Pentax cameras burning in Berlin and all those nice photog that made us think that good pictures might be done with Pentax equipment forced to live in the Pentax ghetto...

[RiceHigh]

Let's see:
3" LCD eliminates from the "up-to-date" camera list Canon 400D, Nikon D80, D4, D40x, Olympus E-400, E-410, E-510, Pentax K100D super, K10D and Sony a100.

Well, all these are not new offerings, you know? The latest new products are the 40D, D3, D300 and A700. And, the Oly E-3 will come very soon.

Live View eliminates Sony a700.

So, do the K10 has LiveView, btw?

Ultrasonic dust removal eliminates Canon D40, 1Ds Mark III, 1D Mark III, Nikon D300 and D3.

40D and D300 do have ultrasonic dust protection systems.

Multisensor central AF point eliminates remaining Olympus cameras...

Again, how about the K10D?

And if we take into account that many of those cameras don't have in-body image stabilisation system, wireless flash control, weather sealing, exposure modes tuned to digital cameras (taking into account variable nature of ISO in digial cameras)... Well, all current cameras are completely outdated, even those which announced and not released yet.

C and N have all these for years, just that the design approach, configuration/set-ups are different and they put different features in different models. So, afterall, so what?

Also, you forget the most important thing, that is, the effectiveness of the features you've mentioned.

[GaryML]

Yes they are silent, but look at all the things they've invented and others now use? Pretty much every technology of the modern camera is something Pentax invented then was reversed engineered onto another camera just like Minoltas big ideas.

Speaking of lenses you'll be more than happy with what Pentax has to offer by January and the wait is for a complete honing of the DA* line and a few other lenses that are to be released in a decent time frame.

Well, Honeywell was the inventor of the SLR auto-focus system now in use, and Minolta got hammered for patent infringement on this technology. It was Leitz that invented the modern 35mm film camera. The M42 mount came from Practika (SP?). Asahi was the first to use an instant return mirror on an SLR, but they certainly didn't invent the SLR. Pentax had some useful innovations (such as the TTL metering in the Spotmatic) but it is incorrect to claim that "pretty much every technology of the modern camera is something Pentax invented."

I would be more than happy to see a complete line of lenses from Pentax, or at least just what is on the roadmap from 2006. But the amount of time they are taking to get their products to market is just absurd. I would expect a few months, but we're talking years to get these things out. They canceled production of most of their old film lenses (while Nikon and Canon still make a lot of their old lenses designed 20 years ago). But they can't get the new ones out the door. They lost me as a customer and they will probably lose a lot more if they can't provide what the customers want when the customers want it. It reminds me of the big Detroit car manufacturers who couldn't (and still can't!) design and build the cars that a changing market demands.

[kenyee]

The same is going on right now as we speak and the input has changed a couple of finely tuned aspects of the lenses.

Soooooo...play w/ any interesting lenses lately? Gotta get a new source for rumors since benjikan has disappeared into the void ;-)

[Arpe]

The same is going on right now as we speak and the input has changed a couple of finely tuned aspects of the lenses.

Can you ask them to make the 60-250 f2.8 instead of f4? Only a "fine tune". Otherwise I'll just keep my Sigma 70-200 with the 1.4x.

Thanks for posting this Chris, I admit I am teetering at present, wanting to upgrade my istDs. I held a Canon 40D the other day - nice fit to the hand, but the screen was way over to the left, so nose-grease problems there! I notice the Nikon D300 at least has the screen positioned further to the right, that's good. Hopefully I have enough patience to wait for a while longer to see what Pentax's next offerings are. Probably the main thing keeping me in the fold is the in-body stabilisation.

Posts like yours are certainly helping me to keep the faith!

[lol101]

Silly? Is it really?

Well... yes!

Everyone else now has 3" LCD monitors (some even at VGA resolution), LiveView function, 14-bit RAW output, multi-sensor central point AF sensor which are "looking" at f/2.8 and f/5.6 lenses, 35 or 40 or even 1,005 multi-segment metering, ultrasonic dust removal and so on..

Well, on the subject of 14bits RAW output (or more exactly 14 bits A/D converter), you were the one to say that the 22 bits A/D converter on the Pentax K10 was useless so why would you want to downgrade it to 14bits?

35/55/1005 multi-segment metering... wow... I'm speechless... why does it take so many segments to do what a spot meter and a brain can do?
Sarcasms aside, I find that the K10 exposes very well in AE mode, it has less tendancy to "preserve highlights" (or underexpose as you would say ) than my Ds. Overall, a very reliable tool so far.

As for bigger screens and LiveView, do you miss them very much in your everyday shot?

I recently handled a D300 and a 40D (at Paris photoshow last week): if you want to transform an excellent reflex into a slow point and shoot, Live View is for you!

Otherwise, the 40D has, at last, a decent viewfinder and useable off-center AF points (try focusing off-center with a 10D-30D on medium contrast subject and tell me about it) and is overall a nice camera and the D300 is a beautifull piece of work with an excellent VF and speedy AF.

Now you can look at the K10D, it has none of the latest things which all others has offered, namely, Canon, Nikon, Sony or even Oly. If the K10D is not considered "outdated", *what* Pentax will do for the next "update"?? (Well, you may still argue that the K10D is perfect and no update is required! LOL..)

Shame on the K10: it's so "last year"...

[RiceHigh]

Well, on the subject of 14bits RAW output (or more exactly 14 bits A/D converter), you were the one to say that the 22 bits A/D converter on the Pentax K10 was useless so why would you want to downgrade it to 14bits?

14 bits? Really?? It is just 12!

RiceHigh's Pentax Blog: The Secrets of the K10D (Part 2 of 3) - The Bridge: A to D Convertor

35/55/1005 multi-segment metering... wow... I'm speechless... why does it take so many segments to do what a spot meter and a brain can do?

So, do you mean that people who use Matrix or Pattern metering as "brainless"?? Well, Pentax is also being "brainless" for including such a metering mode in their cameras, if you're right!

As for bigger screens and LiveView, do you miss them very much in your everyday shot?

Canon 1Ds MkIII and Nikon D3 have these so you should also wonder why true Pros need those features.

I recently handled a D300 and a 40D (at Paris photoshow last week): if you want to transform an excellent reflex into a slow point and shoot, Live View is for you!

BTW, have you ever used a camera to shoot at high level or at low level? Also, why some people need to use Angle Finder?? Are all of them P&S shooters?

[lol101]

14 bits? Really?? It is just 12!

RiceHigh's Pentax Blog: The Secrets of the K10D (Part 2 of 3) - The Bridge: A to D Convertor
?

Where did I say that the stored raw file was 14 bits for the Pentax?

I just said that the AD converter was 22 bits and that the revendicated effect was smoother tonal gradation. What else are the guys from Canon, Nikon or Sony revendicatiing?

Cited from the 40D brochure:
"images take full advantage of this rich 14-bit gradation", doesn't it remind you of Pentax similar statements for the K10 "smooth tonality gradation"?

Oh but then again, if it's Canon or Nikon, it's probably true right?

So, do you mean that people who use Matrix or Pattern metering as "brainless"?? Well, Pentax is also being "brainless" for including such a metering mode in their cameras, if you're right!?

You're pretty good at twisting one's words aren't you? Or are you just not understanding?

I'll try again: a spot meter and a good knowledge of exposure is a pretty good insurance of optimal exposure in tricky situations. And yes, photography can be learned.

That said (and I have the impression to repeat myself here), the AE on my K10 is pretty reliable and I (brainless as I am) use it in 80% of everyday shots.

Canon 1Ds MkIII and Nikon D3 have these so you should also wonder why true Pros need those features.?

I wouldn't know: I'm not a pro. Why don't you ask them if they really need them and for what? I have never seen a pro asking for it though...

BTW, have you ever used a camera to shoot at high level or at low level? Also, why some people need to use Angle Finder?? Are all of them P&S shooters?

Try reading what people are writing instead of "interpreting".
I didn't say "those guys who would use Live View are nothing but a bunch of P&S shooters", I said: " I recently handled a D300 and a 40D (at Paris photoshow last week): if you want to transform an excellent reflex into a slow point and shoot, Live View is for you!" which means that LV is sloooooow if you use contrast AF (D300) and slooow if you use normal AF (D300 and 40D).
Bottomline: it is slow. As in not fast or at least not as fast as if you use the excellent AF systems these cameras have.

I am certain LV is usefull under a very limited of practical applications but as they are not part of MY shooting habits (see, no generalization here), I am not longing for it.

[ZaphodB]

Yes they are silent, but look at all the things they've invented and others now use? Pretty much every technology of the modern camera is something Pentax invented then was reversed engineered onto another camera just like Minoltas big ideas.

Speaking of lenses you'll be more than happy with what Pentax has to offer by January and the wait is for a complete honing of the DA* line and a few other lenses that are to be released in a decent time frame. If you weren't around for the pre-release of the first 2 DA* lenses Pentax for almost 6 months passed around a pair of working models which I had the pleasure of playing with and they took all the input from users to hone their creation before hitting the market. The same is going on right now as we speak and the input has changed a couple of finely tuned aspects of the lenses. You'll be happier in the end and Pentax won't anger too many customers by taking the time to get this right.

They also learned one valuable lesson with the first DA* lenses and that is demand outweighs production on those puppies and the same will be true of next set because they frequent this site and DPReview on a daily basis. People like Tom Lusk are people they want to attract with these new lenses and by golly they are gonna give it there all so I'm happy with a little wait because it's not like it's the end of the world if I don't have a 300mm prime in my hand, I'll just shoot with what I have till I get something new.

Well... the very questionable bit about "pretty much every technology of the modern camera" being a Pentax invention aside, all you have told us about there is the past, not the present or future. We can talk all we like about Minolta's achievements too, but it didn't keep them in the camera business.

I am encouraged by your assurances about what Pentax will be offering by January. However please understand that you are an "informed" or "in the know" source telling us to calm down because we'll all be seeing something very special before long... the only problem here being that we have had this before from other sources, and have been disappointed. And then there is the fact that despite your confidence in seeing new lenses in January, the roadmap was recently amended to have no dates at all... So please don't take it personally, but I for one would still like to see some official announcements.

Also sorry but I have to repeat Gruoso's point... the reports of Pentax spending so long testing and getting feedback on the DA* lenses seems a bit at odds with many of the complaints and reservations people are now expressing (and by the way these are definitely not only 'anti-Pentax' people). If the company truly spends such a long time getting it right... then they'd better get it right.

Finally, I'm glad that you're happy with a little wait. Except it's not a little wait. It's one of years, not months. Saying "It's not the end of the world" seems to imply that I'm somehow being incredibly unreasonable in wanting what I consider a more complete system... but am I really? I'm only asking for Pentax to supply common lens types which every other SLR system has. And it has not taken them a little while to do it; it's taken them several years, and we only have your assurance that it won't still be a long while to come. Of course it's not the end of the world. Of course I don't absolutely need something new and I can shoot with what I have... now keep following that logic... we don't need a dSLR either and should be satisfied using only a Holga... but surprisingly, most folks want a little more...