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10-09-2007, 06:23 PM   #121
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C'mon Ben, tell us what happened. Or rather didn't happen...

10-09-2007, 06:46 PM   #122
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QuoteOriginally posted by kenyee Quote
I also think this is what happened. If you go backwards, you'll notice that benjikan's posts magically stopped after the Nikon/Canon annoucements (most notably the Nikon one, which is why I keep joking that Nikon gave him a closet of D3's to play with :-).
Actually, I've been wondering: Has Ben K. posted here lately?

Will
10-09-2007, 08:20 PM   #123
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Well Put and Exactly!

Very well put, ZaphodB! That's exactly what I have been thinking too! The problem of "recent" Pentax is that they are not doing adequately as what they could do before, in terms of both quantity and quality.

To add a few more points, I must say also the AF of MZ cameras are more responsive and reliable than any Pentax DSLRs, the optical quality of the Pentax film lenses are better and more consistent in output and performance (even they are used on the Pentax DSLR bodies), the AE of the old MZ cameras are more accurate (well, again, film lenses on Pentax DSLRs often exposes more accurately than DA lenses). So, what has been happening with Pentax since their DSLR age??

Again, as for the lens lineup of the current Pentax DSLR system, it is just a pity indeed. There is no telelens longer than 200mm. The only one is the DA 50-200 which is just a low end product. At older days Pentax had the FA* 300/4.5 as the "standar" super tele prime but then it was discontinued since *ist D anyway. As for the new DA* lenses, they just do not perform satisfactorily until stopped down by at least two stops and the colour response is just too Tokina alike IMHO. The DA Limiteds are not my cup of tea neither. With such a weak lens lineup and two outdated DSLR bodies, I am really wondered how Pentax can compete in the near future! How?

To me, as I already have more than enough good Pentax glass for both film and APS-C formats, I just hope a true upmarket Pentax DSLR flagship will come, which should at least with the MZ-S quality and performance for a SLR, I imagine.. Anyway, I hope this will still come true (although it is very unlikely by judging from the current very unfavourable position).


QuoteOriginally posted by ZaphodB Quote
Gruoso, I think you may be right about Pentax's response to seeing the latest from the big two (and of course from Sony too).

And like you I also believe Pentax at some point needs to come out with a higher end model, and preferably sooner rather than later. And you're absolutely right, a higher end model is no good without higher end lenses to go with it... in fact even before a higher-end body comes along, K10d and K100d users would benefit from longer and/or faster lenses.

The only thing I disagree with is that I (and I suspect most other frustrated Pentax users) are not just frustrated because Pentax can't do what Canon and Nikon can do... if we really wanted what Canon or Nikon offer, we'd choose Canon or Nikon... but rather, it's because Pentax can't seem to do what Pentax can do! They have done high-end (film) bodies and done them very well. They have done high-end lenses before... they have designed and produced long and fast lenses... and they have previously done it without the assistance of third-parties. Plus they have previously been considered important enough for Sigma and Tamron to make their high-end lenses for the K mount (which is no longer the case). Personally I don't want Pentax to be Canon or Nikon... I just want them to be Pentax and to produce the equipment (including lenses!) that I know Pentax is capable of making.
10-09-2007, 08:46 PM   #124
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Wow, what an invovled thread!?

Well, time for my two cents here and coming from what I understand about whats going on hopefully it'll shed some light as well as calming some burning fires.

First, the bottom-line camera debate, the D40 and the Xt are nowhere near the caliber the K100D or the K100D super are, no crippled mounts and poor AF that the D40 has and on the other side the AA's that power the K100D are far superior to the crap battery in the Xt and the sensor in the Xt is just awful people, the CCD in the K100D is far superior in image rendition and noise reduction.

The 30D and the D200 is where the Pentax K10D was aimed originally aimed towards in terms of price but was far superior in terms of whiz-bang features. Not too mention the AF was more accurate, but slower in that regard. I know Rice-High will chime in on that but I hate to break it to you Rice-High I know I'm right about the AF in those two... oh and the 5D had a horrible AF vs the 30D in terms of accuracy, throw a L lens on there and find out for yourself. Feature for feature the K10D still fairs well against the 40D, which is an awful camera compared to what Canon could have made, but again failed to release. Ugh, still not weather-sealed mister Canon?

Why Pentax is waiting? Because they have to thats why. Currently in the middle of the transition they had internal doubts of what was going to happen so things sat on the back burner period. Things are rolling again with new staff being acquired in large scales across the company especially here in the US where the repair facility changed face to allow under one week repairs. Pentax is growing in order to meet demand, which right now everything is slowly becoming harder and harder to acquire from a retail point of view. Our store personally is right behind B&H in sales for K10D bodies and it still takes almost a month to get anything because of back orders. Heck the our sales rep and his bosses boss are coming to our store for the 5th time this year just to talk about stuff and the the future of Pentax on Thursday.

The product line that Pentax is starting to bring to the market takes a great deal of effort from a company that 5 years ago was a small player and with the release of the K100D and K10D have become a huge hit across the board in nearly every country. Heck they haven't caught up on back orders yet and yet people still scream for more and more. No worries you'll all get more and it's going to take time. I just feel bad for anyone who is going to jump ship because Canon and Nikon or Sony make a camera that is awesome right this second. You'll be amazed at the k10D upgrade as well as it's beefy big brother due out.

Speaking of Benjamin and what he was speaking of did come out during October has come, but not for everyone to hear about and there is a good reason for it. If Pentax were to show what they had now other companies could change things before production ends of whats soon to be released and Pentax doesn't want to be a step behind when the new bodies release so the wait continues.

This same paradox happened with other companies and the results have been mixed. Microsoft released the XBox 360 early to beat the holiday season... now they back owe over 1 million customers repair charges for faulty systems. Sony upped there production of laptop batteries in order to grow there business but were in such a rush they recalled 9 million batteries because they jumped the gun on a tight deadline they should have never accepted. Canon released the MKIII before going through all the hoops and ladders now are paying for it in the loss of brand trust and angry users. So if Rice High says Pentax needs to release before the holidays I say the opposite because do you want an untested product that fails so Pentax has to spend months getting it right and loosing sails to poor reviews from awful camera testers?

This industry has changed because technology forces companies to respond in quantum fashion to their competitors. I for one am against pushing the camera industry to new heights at a pace no one wants to purchase at. The only thing that would happen if Pentax announced something right now is prove they want to compete with the big boys, but they already did that last year and now want to drag the big boys around from the rear of their bumper and not just coast.

Just hold on and take pictures with your perfectly functioning cameras folks, except Ricehigh who doesn't own a perfectly functioning camera, they always have some sort of problem with them from what I hear because Pentax has something in store for all of you if you just don't mind having something thats less than a year old in your hands for now.

Oh, I guess some headlines were missed too by many in the Pentax community... one, Pentax Imaging has teamed with the largest producer of gyroscopic parts for their SR cameras (ie. K10D, K100D, and a couple more ) two, have teamed with the largest semi-conductor producer in the world to supply them with other parts for the future cameras and lastly have added a few key players to the game from rival companies. Check out Bloomberg for more info on these topics.


Last edited by codiac2600; 10-09-2007 at 08:53 PM.
10-09-2007, 09:08 PM   #125
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I just wish to ask which lens do you use on your K10D when you concluded that the K10D has excellent AF accuracy than all other low end or high end models of the competitors you mentioned? Also, how could you know those D40X, XTi, 5D are focusing poorer and inferiorly whilst the K10D is perfect??

QuoteOriginally posted by codiac2600 Quote
Wow, what an invovled thread!?

Well, time for my two cents here and coming from what I understand about whats going on hopefully it'll shed some light as well as calming some burning fires.

First, the bottom-line camera debate, the D40 and the Xt are nowhere near the caliber the K100D or the K100D super are, no crippled mounts and poor AF that the D40 has and on the other side the AA's that power the K100D are far superior to the crap battery in the Xt and the sensor in the Xt is just awful people, the CCD in the K100D is far superior in image rendition and noise reduction.

The 30D and the D200 is where the Pentax K10D was aimed originally aimed towards in terms of price but was far superior in terms of whiz-bang features. Not too mention the AF was more accurate, but slower in that regard. I know Rice-High will chime in on that but I hate to break it to you Rice-High I know I'm right about the AF in those two... oh and the 5D had a horrible AF vs the 30D in terms of accuracy, throw a L lens on there and find out for yourself. Feature for feature the K10D still fairs well against the 40D, which is an awful camera compared to what Canon could have made, but again failed to release. Ugh, still not weather-sealed mister Canon?

Why Pentax is waiting? Because they have to thats why. Currently in the middle of the transition they had internal doubts of what was going to happen so things sat on the back burner period. Things are rolling again with new staff being acquired in large scales across the company especially here in the US where the repair facility changed face to allow under one week repairs. Pentax is growing in order to meet demand, which right now everything is slowly becoming harder and harder to acquire from a retail point of view. Our store personally is right behind B&H in sales for K10D bodies and it still takes almost a month to get anything because of back orders. Heck the our sales rep and his bosses boss are coming to our store for the 5th time this year just to talk about stuff and the the future of Pentax on Thursday.

The product line that Pentax is starting to bring to the market takes a great deal of effort from a company that 5 years ago was a small player and with the release of the K100D and K10D have become a huge hit across the board in nearly every country. Heck they haven't caught up on back orders yet and yet people still scream for more and more. No worries you'll all get more and it's going to take time. I just feel bad for anyone who is going to jump ship because Canon and Nikon or Sony make a camera that is awesome right this second. You'll be amazed at the k10D upgrade as well as it's beefy big brother due out.

Speaking of Benjamin and what he was speaking of did come out during October has come, but not for everyone to hear about and there is a good reason for it. If Pentax were to show what they had now other companies could change things before production ends of whats soon to be released and Pentax doesn't want to be a step behind when the new bodies release so the wait continues.

This same paradox happened with other companies and the results have been mixed. Microsoft released the XBox 360 early to beat the holiday season... now they back owe over 1 million customers repair charges for faulty systems. Sony upped there production of laptop batteries in order to grow there business but were in such a rush they recalled 9 million batteries because they jumped the gun on a tight deadline they should have never accepted. Canon released the MKIII before going through all the hoops and ladders now are paying for it in the loss of brand trust and angry users. So if Rice High says Pentax needs to release before the holidays I say the opposite because do you want an untested product that fails so Pentax has to spend months getting it right and loosing sails to poor reviews from awful camera testers?

This industry has changed because technology forces companies to respond in quantum fashion to their competitors. I for one am against pushing the camera industry to new heights at a pace no one wants to purchase at. The only thing that would happen if Pentax announced something right now is prove they want to compete with the big boys, but they already did that last year and now want to drag the big boys around from the rear of their bumper and not just coast.

Just hold on and take pictures with your perfectly functioning cameras folks, except Ricehigh who doesn't own a perfectly functioning camera, they always have some sort of problem with them from what I hear because Pentax has something in store for all of you if you just don't mind having something thats less than a year old in your hands for now.

Oh, I guess some headlines were missed too by many in the Pentax community... one, Pentax Imaging has teamed with the largest producer of gyroscopic parts for their SR cameras (ie. K10D, K100D, and a couple more ) two, have teamed with the largest semi-conductor producer in the world to supply them with other parts for the future cameras and lastly have added a few key players to the game from rival companies. Check out Bloomberg for more info on these topics.
10-09-2007, 09:24 PM   #126
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QuoteOriginally posted by RiceHigh Quote
I just wish to ask which lens do you use on your K10D when you concluded that the K10D has excellent AF accuracy than all other low end or high end models of the competitors you mentioned? Also, how could you know those D40X, XTi, 5D are focusing poorer and inferiorly whilst the K10D is perfect??
I use my DA* 16-50 and 50-135, my FA 50 1.4, my Tamron 28-75 2.8 oh and my Sigma 28 1.8.

I've personally shot thousands of shots in the field with the Xt, Xti, D40, 5D, 30D, and 40D. Now remember the field is much better than the lab because lenses aren't made to focus in a lab. The lenses I used on the 5D, Xti, 30D and 40D in particular were the 70-200 2.8 IS L, the 100-400 IS L, the 14-70 4 L and 50 1.4. The 40D was by far the most accurate especially in my studio. The D40 I had only used what my friend had available which was the crap kit lens and the tele zoom to match. Not too mention the hundreds of customers who come to the store I work at and show me there work I see tons of garbage shots using the best Canon and Nikon have to offer and thats focus garbage.

I will admit the focus is much much faster but the accuracy I was looking for was not unless I used a tripod and manually focused. Heck my Tamron 70-300 gets more shots in perfect focus over the 5D with the 100-400 L on it and I detailed that test in the photo gallery here, oh and the 100-400 is a crap L lens. Keep up Ricehigh, you're falling behind in tests .

Hope you didn't miss my 40D vs K10D studio shootout in the gallery as well. The K10D beats the 40D in that one too. It was the DA* 16-50 vs the Canon 14-40 L in case you were wondering.
10-09-2007, 11:13 PM   #127
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Hi Chris, thanks very much for taking the time to explain all this.

Regards
Phil
10-10-2007, 12:37 AM   #128
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Please point me directly to your test gallery as I am unable to find them. I'm interested. Thanks.

QuoteOriginally posted by codiac2600 Quote
I use my DA* 16-50 and 50-135, my FA 50 1.4, my Tamron 28-75 2.8 oh and my Sigma 28 1.8.

I've personally shot thousands of shots in the field with the Xt, Xti, D40, 5D, 30D, and 40D. Now remember the field is much better than the lab because lenses aren't made to focus in a lab. The lenses I used on the 5D, Xti, 30D and 40D in particular were the 70-200 2.8 IS L, the 100-400 IS L, the 14-70 4 L and 50 1.4. The 40D was by far the most accurate especially in my studio. The D40 I had only used what my friend had available which was the crap kit lens and the tele zoom to match. Not too mention the hundreds of customers who come to the store I work at and show me there work I see tons of garbage shots using the best Canon and Nikon have to offer and thats focus garbage.

I will admit the focus is much much faster but the accuracy I was looking for was not unless I used a tripod and manually focused. Heck my Tamron 70-300 gets more shots in perfect focus over the 5D with the 100-400 L on it and I detailed that test in the photo gallery here, oh and the 100-400 is a crap L lens. Keep up Ricehigh, you're falling behind in tests .

Hope you didn't miss my 40D vs K10D studio shootout in the gallery as well. The K10D beats the 40D in that one too. It was the DA* 16-50 vs the Canon 14-40 L in case you were wondering.


10-10-2007, 12:57 AM   #129
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Why won't you just disappear???
10-10-2007, 02:26 AM   #130
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QuoteOriginally posted by RiceHigh Quote
[...]
With such a weak lens lineup and two outdated DSLR bodies, I am really wondered how Pentax can compete in the near future! How?
[...]
I won't argue about K100D super, however to call K10D outdated...
Do you know that you look really silly when you make statements like that?
10-10-2007, 03:09 AM   #131
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QuoteOriginally posted by Edvinas Quote
I won't argue about K100D super, however to call K10D outdated...
Do you know that you look really silly when you make statements like that?
Silly? Is it really?

Everyone else now has 3" LCD monitors (some even at VGA resolution), LiveView function, 14-bit RAW output, multi-sensor central point AF sensor which are "looking" at f/2.8 and f/5.6 lenses, 35 or 40 or even 1,005 multi-segment metering, ultrasonic dust removal and so on..

Now you can look at the K10D, it has none of the latest things which all others has offered, namely, Canon, Nikon, Sony or even Oly. If the K10D is not considered "outdated", *what* Pentax will do for the next "update"?? (Well, you may still argue that the K10D is perfect and no update is required! LOL..)
10-10-2007, 03:28 AM   #132
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QuoteOriginally posted by RiceHigh Quote
Silly? Is it really?

Everyone else now has 3" LCD monitors (some even at VGA resolution), LiveView function, 14-bit RAW output, multi-sensor central point AF sensor which are "looking" at f/2.8 and f/5.6 lenses, 35 or 40 or even 1,005 multi-segment metering, ultrasonic dust removal and so on..

Now you can look at the K10D, it has none of the latest things which all others has offered, namely, Canon, Nikon, Sony or even Oly. If the K10D is not considered "outdated", *what* Pentax will do for the next "update"?? (Well, you may still argue that the K10D is perfect and no update is required! LOL..)
I'm not sure why Pentax has to rush rush rush in order to not be outdated. So what if Canon and Nikon have released new units that have more features? Canon came out with the 20D, did a very modest upgrade and called it a 30D (there was argument it should have been a 20dMkII) because of such little upgrade...and that was over 18 mos ago. Nikon hasnt even released the 300 series yet or the D3. And the 200 has been around over 18 mos ago. The Pentax is yet but a year old. I don't think they need to upgrade just yet. They come out when they are ready and probably give you the best of the 40D, D300 and then weather seal it. Some people do not have to have the biggest stick to feel safe.
10-10-2007, 03:36 AM   #133
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Chris, thanks for your post. It is always nice to hear from those "in the know".
I can accept there are very good reasons for Pentax to not announce specific products (just as long as they are working on them!), and of course it makes sense that the Hoya business would cause delays and confusion.

I still maintain though that Pentax/Hoya's lack of visible activity, their "silence", is a bad, bad idea. OK so they shouldn't announce camera bodies if keeping them quiet gives them an advantage over the competition... but where exactly is the advantage in keeping quiet about new lenses (oh apart from the rebadged Tamron)... removing the provisional release dates from the roadmap was sensible if those dates clearly weren't going to be met, but they should at least be confirming that at some point we will see those new lenses. And it was inevitable that many people would be worried by the idea of Hoya eating Pentax... especially since we have really not seen much to confirm that Hoya is truly interested in keeping the camera division alive. Reassurances from dealers on one or two forums are nice but don't count for much, and frankly we shouldn't have to check Bloomberg for signs of life.

If you say there are new camera bodies coming then I have no reason to doubt you, and your assurances are encouraging. But... you only mentioned bodies... what about the lenses? Yes we all know Pentax cameras are very well featured compared to Canon and Nikon's offerings at a similar level... and of course most of us don't have a problem using a camera less than a year old... but what many of us do have a problem with is the range of lenses... like the fact that, four years after the release of the original *Ist D, 200mm is still the longest focal length you can buy from Pentax, or 135mm if you want a fast one.

I'm perfectly happy with my K100d, a year-old camera which is really four-year-old technology... at least happy enough that I don't feel the need to "upgrade" to a K10d and lose high-ISO performance... what I am not happy with is the glass which I can't get... and when I can see that Pentax are still serious about producing a system consisting of quality bodies and lenses, then I'll stop worrying and complaining. Yes, really.
10-10-2007, 04:38 AM   #134
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Well said-

ZB!

as for Supreme MF, your comment here makes your handle seem quite appropriate. I think DPReview is calling you.
10-10-2007, 04:39 AM   #135
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QuoteOriginally posted by Tom Lusk Quote
as for Supreme MF, your handle seems appropriate. I think DPReview is calling you.
Appropriate, then, RH should never have left. The holier than thou, you can't sway my opinion attitude stinks.
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