Aside from releasing the 645D, I really cannot see how Pentax would be able to compete with higher end DSLR from C&N (where are the "pro grade" lenses in the Pentax lineup?)

The mock ups that I was speaking about were more directed to the high end lenses rather than to bodies and I agree, no competition with C and N seems logical.

IMHO the only way for Pentax to get its share of the pro business is to "think different" and go "affordable" (say 4-5K€) digital medium format but I don't know how realistic this is.[/QUOTE]

I agree 100%

As to releasing a K10D successor, I don't think Pentax can release new bodies faster than C&N which are on a 18 month turnover basis.

I am not an expert but my guess is that they hold the releases to dont interfere with the old products rather than wait for R&D to develop the new products (althought might be some exceptions), so Pentax might do it (I am just only guessing)

Since the K10 is less than a year old, I would say that announcing a new model around february 2008 to be released around june seems reasonable to me, no need to rush products out.

I agree, but the model might well be a higher end (and more expensive) model not only a K10d sucessor that can be announced now to be released soon (which translated to Pentax would be somewhere between june 2008 and december 2015)

Remember than the D200 and 30D were released 8/10 months before the K10.

[ZaphodB]

I guess I'll find out when I get there...October 6-7...

Hi Ben - I guess so
By the way I meant no offence; I'm sure all the information you provide is in good faith; it's just that I've heard the "There's going to be an announcement" tune a few times before not only from yourself but various people who got their information from sources within Pentax... so my comments are not really directed at you but at Pentax and Hoya.

[jms698]

I guess I'll find out when I get there...October 6-7...

So, Ben, the Salon is over and there have been no major announcements (although the A40 does look like a pretty nice compact camera - if that counts). Could you enlighten us into who was or wasn't "F'ing around"?

Do you know (and can tell) anything we don't know?

[RiceHigh]

All I will say is this.."Some Big News" before October...

I know, "Cut the Crap Ben"... But it is so true...

Best Wishes
Ben

As I have said here before, they need to have new bodies in order to catch up in the game in which they are really lagging behind.

To me, nothing is really excited but they should at least upkeep themselves for what all other competitiors have already done, say, LiveView, 3" LCD monitor, preferably with VGA fine resolution, more sophisticated AF system, updating their multi-segment meter system, faster frame rate, more reliable AF and so on..

Well, we should know Pentax now still has not at least a 10MP entry level DSLR, which now they are just selling the K10D at that price point but it is indeed just oversized and overweighted for that market segment. Just look at the D40X and the 400D and one will know what such camera should look like in that market segment before they could sell.

Well, we should know Pentax now still has not at least a 10MP entry level DSLR, which now they are just selling the K10D at that price point but it is indeed just oversized and overweighted for that market segment. Just look at the D40X and the 400D and one will know what such camera should look like in that market segment before they could sell.

With all due respect, this post makes no sense to me. I thought that the K100D was an entry level camera. Why should an entry camera need 10MB? About an oversized, overweighted camera you may should add an overspecified camera, cos as far as I know I dont think that to have a semi-pro body for an entry level price is bad. I think that you have the concept upside-down. Shouldnt be the 400D and the D40x playing catch up with the K10D in specifications, or with the K100D in price? At any case, I think that it is better to have the right camera ready althought it takes a little longer, rather than a 1D MarkIII released in advance (affraid of the D3 maybe?) at kidney-donation price with autofocus problems, suspicious weather sealing...

[oRs]

With all due respect, this post makes no sense to me.

Uh... this was *Ricehigh*, Remember him ?

[ZaphodB]

With all due respect, this post makes no sense to me. I thought that the K100D was an entry level camera. Why should an entry camera need 10MB?

Makes perfect sense to me... an entry level camera needs 10mp because the other brands' entry-level cameras have 10mp. That is all there is to it. 10mp does give a slight advantage in practice... though there are also drawbacks to the higher pixel count, like the potential for higher noise... but really none of this matters. What matters is, everyone else is sticking 10mp in their entry-level cameras. When investing in a dSLR you may have looked long and hard at all the options and found that Pentax offer the best value... but sadly most people don't do that... they buy into hype, marketing, and myths... and they are still buying into the megapixel myth. So yes, it is necessary to compete on "specs" like megapixels and not solely on the value-for-money factor.

Beyond that, the uneventfulness (from a Pentax user's point of view) of the Salon seems to suggest to me that someone at Pentax is indeed F'ing Ben around. We may yet see a great announcement in October, but I won't hold my breath... can I suggest that next time Benjamin meets his sources, he wires them up to a polygraph and asks them to give yes or no answers

[GaryML]

Makes perfect sense to me... an entry level camera needs 10mp because the other brands' entry-level cameras have 10mp. That is all there is to it.

...

Beyond that, the uneventfulness (from a Pentax user's point of view) of the Salon seems to suggest to me that someone at Pentax is indeed F'ing Ben around.

Both Nikon and Canon offer a 6 MP basic model DSLR, a 10 MP "basic+" model, a 10 MP (soon to be 12 MP for Nikon) intermediate model, and more advanced models. While the K100D Super can compete with the other basic models, there is nothing to compete with the "basic+" model. Both Canon and Nikon are upgrading their intermediate models, while Pentax is doing nothing. And Pentax doesn't have an advanced model, doesn't have any lens beyond 200mm in stores, can't deliver on the promised products on the lens roadmap announced in 2006, and is basically throwing away the momentum and good will from the successful launches of the K100D and the K10D. All they have announced this fall is a re-badged Tamron zoom and some point and shoots. Is this the best that Hoya management can muster?

I don't know who is "f'ing" with whom, but I can observe that Pentax is intent on snatching a defeat from the jaws of their victory with the K10D. It's sad to see them get back on their feet and then immediately stumble and fall.

[DMH]

Most successful companies launch and market products that have a sense of progression. That is, if I buy an entry level model today, and skip the next new and best model released, I can expect there to be another one, just over the hill to satisfy my future needs. Despite the fact that Pentax has produced two great DSLR cameras, they need to feed this sense of progression that is needed by loyal customers.

Honda has a product cycle of about 4 years, BMW and AUDI about 6 years between major model updates. Canon and Nikon have established a cycle. Has and will Pentax? Our belief that they will meet our future needs is of utmost importance if they are to gain and hold market share. They are however silent. They can't afford to play the game the same way Nikon and Canon can. The only advertising I see for Pentax is a couple 2nd tier billboards with lackluster advertising. They need to get closer to their loyal user base, something that Apple has leveraged successfully. Unreliable rumors through people loosely associated with Pentax doesn't build confidence.

First of all, I want to make clear that I am not a Pentax Crusader nor nothing similar, I just think that because Pentax is a small company compared to Canon and Nikon some people get frustrated and start to think in negatives consequences that will end up in the end of the company, when what it is happening is simply that they cannot behave like them.

Both Nikon and Canon offer a 6 MP basic model DSLR, a 10 MP "basic+" model, a 10 MP (soon to be 12 MP for Nikon) intermediate model, and more advanced models. While the K100D Super can compete with the other basic models, there is nothing to compete with the "basic+" model. Both Canon and Nikon are upgrading their intermediate models, while Pentax is doing nothing.

Pentax does not need to compete with D40x or 400D, or even with the D80 or 30D cos they have the K10D at the same price or even cheaper. K10D and K100D were released less than 1 year ago. Now, one can go to the roadmap of Canon and nikon and see the timeframe between the D50-D40 or 350D-400D

And Pentax doesn't have an advanced model, doesn't have any lens beyond 200mm in stores, can't deliver on the promised products on the lens roadmap announced in 2006, and is basically throwing away the momentum and good will from the successful launches of the K100D and the K10D. All they have announced this fall is a re-badged Tamron zoom and some point and shoots. Is this the best that Hoya management can muster?

I agree with this part almost 100%. Respect to the advanced model, I would say that K10D is that model but at a basic/intermediate price. What Pentax is lacking, IMO, is a high end model, but to release it with success, they need to release first the high end lenses to give the people the idea that they can put together a compelling system.

I don't know who is "f'ing" with whom, but I can observe that Pentax is intent on snatching a defeat from the jaws of their victory with the K10D. It's sad to see them get back on their feet and then immediately stumble and fall.

I was reading the same kind of comments on some Nikon forums after Canon announced the 40d and 1-2 weeks later all of us know what happened. I think that Pentax had ready the model to be released in October as Benjikan suggested, but my feeling is that they understimated the evolution of the new canon and Nikon and maybe they are trying now to implement some elements that they had reserved for future cameras or simply adding more bells and whistles.

I think that Pentax might or might not shut down in the next future but I would bet that it wont happen before they release new models and lenses.

[kenyee]

Pentax had ready the model to be released in October as Benjikan suggested, but my feeling is that they understimated the evolution of the new canon and Nikon and maybe they are trying now to implement some elements that they had reserved for future cameras or simply adding more bells and whistles.

I also think this is what happened. If you go backwards, you'll notice that benjikan's posts magically stopped after the Nikon/Canon annoucements (most notably the Nikon one, which is why I keep joking that Nikon gave him a closet of D3's to play with :-).

The K10D was a fairly big leap over the D80/XTi when it was released, which is why a lot of people (me included) jumped on it. I think they had something planned to be what they thought was a big leap over the D3/40D but it wasn't...

All I can say is I'm glad I didn't wait for the "October announcement" before getting my K10D ;-) I just wish they had slipstreamed in a fix for the VPN and vertical antialiasing filter :-P

[alinla]

Wow, 115 posts in this thread that amounted to nothing. Over 6000 views! I guess many of us are desperate for some exciting news. Me included.

[jms698]

I also think this is what happened. If you go backwards, you'll notice that benjikan's posts magically stopped after the Nikon/Canon annoucements (most notably the Nikon one, which is why I keep joking that Nikon gave him a closet of D3's to play with :-).

The K10D was a fairly big leap over the D80/XTi when it was released, which is why a lot of people (me included) jumped on it. I think they had something planned to be what they thought was a big leap over the D3/40D but it wasn't...

Unfortunately, this sounds like a good guess as to what happened. I say unfortunately, because I would have thought a Pentax version of the 40D, but costing $400 less would have been just fine as a K20d. I wish Pentax had more self-confidence than to be intimidated by Canon/Nikon's high-end monster cameras (with their giant price tags). Anyway, we'll hopefully see soon enough...

[ZaphodB]

Gruoso, I think you may be right about Pentax's response to seeing the latest from the big two (and of course from Sony too).

And like you I also believe Pentax at some point needs to come out with a higher end model, and preferably sooner rather than later. And you're absolutely right, a higher end model is no good without higher end lenses to go with it... in fact even before a higher-end body comes along, K10d and K100d users would benefit from longer and/or faster lenses.

The only thing I disagree with is that I (and I suspect most other frustrated Pentax users) are not just frustrated because Pentax can't do what Canon and Nikon can do... if we really wanted what Canon or Nikon offer, we'd choose Canon or Nikon... but rather, it's because Pentax can't seem to do what Pentax can do! They have done high-end (film) bodies and done them very well. They have done high-end lenses before... they have designed and produced long and fast lenses... and they have previously done it without the assistance of third-parties. Plus they have previously been considered important enough for Sigma and Tamron to make their high-end lenses for the K mount (which is no longer the case). Personally I don't want Pentax to be Canon or Nikon... I just want them to be Pentax and to produce the equipment (including lenses!) that I know Pentax is capable of making.

... but rather, it's because Pentax can't seem to do what Pentax can do! They have done high-end (film) bodies and done them very well. They have done high-end lenses before... they have designed and produced long and fast lenses... and they have previously done it without the assistance of third-parties. Plus they have previously been considered important enough for Sigma and Tamron to make their high-end lenses for the K mount (which is no longer the case). Personally I don't want Pentax to be Canon or Nikon... I just want them to be Pentax and to produce the equipment (including lenses!) that I know Pentax is capable of making.

I agree, there was a time when Pentax was able to produce good cameras and lenses in all segments (35mm, 645, 67, 110...) and they were a contender to take into account. I think that they are trailing the problem of going digital late, now they have to catch up other systems and follow an unnatural rythm of release of lenses and bodies while the cappabilities of Pentax are smaller. Hoya might either give them an economic injection or a letal one, but what it is clear is that the takeover was going to delay any release till they adapted each other. To open a new factory in Vietnam didnot help to speed up things. It allows you to increase profits but on the other hand you need more time to train employees that if you open a new factory in Japan, Taiwan or Korea. I think that adding all these things up may give an idea about the situation. Now, if you ask me if Pentax is free of guilt I would say that they are where they are because of their own fault.