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06-25-2010, 07:45 AM   #16
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QuoteOriginally posted by Lowell Goudge Quote
K7 works well also, as you can see below ISO 1600 at 1/40th with a 500mm lens

but again, flash does not scare birds, they come and go as they please



To be short and sweat about it, I use what ever I can to get a shot. If I don't have a flash with me, I push ISO, and rely on shake reduction to do it, but for that to work, you need a steady subject like my heron, because regardless of ISO and shake reduction, at 1/40 if it were to move, you would see the image blurred.


Someone asked about removing the purple fringe, I did not remove the artifacts from my heron, which was shot using an SMC-K 300F4 plus 1.7x AF TC, but it is relitively simple to achieve with any good photo editor and the CA removal tools. the purple fringe tool does not do enough because true purple fringing from bleeding sensor to sensor has a very small impacted pixel radius, CA like in the shot Iposted needs a larger radius.

I use PSP X3 which has a very good tool.
Flash is best for shots of little birds because they move about and unless you are in bright sunlight, you cant get teh shutter speed to freeze them. Bigger birds don;t move as much so you can do other types of shots
Good pics you have here.
Indeed, one needs the shutter speed for those tiny birds. Yesterday was a real struggle to get a photo of a very small and very busy Golden-crowned Kinglet. All of the shots were "wasted" actually. This was of course in their habitat: dark and heavily treed conifer forest. To top it all, they match very well, colour-wise, with their environment.

I will have to dare pushing the ISO higher, but since I use NoisewarePro, I find it is not really doing what I am expecting.

JP

06-25-2010, 07:48 AM   #17
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QuoteOriginally posted by rawr Quote
Thanks!

The K-x suggestion was said with a smiley, but the K-x does does indeed solve some problems when birding in poor light.

Another image contribution to the discussion: this pigeon was just emerging from it's nest deep in a thicket of bottle-brushes and grevilleas. It was cloudy and raining too, as you can see from the rain drops on the bird. Light was terrible. K-x @3200 ISO.
If I hadn't two camera bodies already, believe me, I would certainly have bought a Kx, specifically for those reasons. But, I am quite happy with the majority of my shots taken woth the K20D and the K7 under suitable lighting conditions.
Thanks again for the suggestion and the pics.
Cheers.

JP
06-25-2010, 08:23 AM   #18
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QuoteOriginally posted by jpzk Quote
Good pics you have here.
Indeed, one needs the shutter speed for those tiny birds. Yesterday was a real struggle to get a photo of a very small and very busy Golden-crowned Kinglet. All of the shots were "wasted" actually. This was of course in their habitat: dark and heavily treed conifer forest. To top it all, they match very well, colour-wise, with their environment.

I will have to dare pushing the ISO higher, but since I use NoisewarePro, I find it is not really doing what I am expecting.

JP
for the little birds you almost always need flash in the forrest. you don't even need that long a lens

the shot below was with my FA 28-105 F4-5.6 on my *istD. Saw this guy on a hike, in the woods, just put the pop up flash up and got him.

06-25-2010, 11:55 AM   #19
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QuoteOriginally posted by jpzk Quote
Hi Phil!

Sure, cranking up the ISO beyond 1250 (my max attempts up to now) would be ideal. How do you get this software for magenta removing? And, must you use Denoise or would another NR software work, such as NoisewarePro?
That way, I wouldn't be afraid to use ISO1600 and up.
Much better than to use the flash, as I can understand.

Cheers.

JP
Sorry I didn't get back here right away.

This is the GordonbGood link for the Magenta removing software:

http://cid-610bb9d47b109171.skydrive.live.com/browse.aspx/Distributed%20Programs

Note: If you use this, just put all the images you want done in a specific folder and list that in the table. then press enter and it will quickly go through, adding an MC prefix. I don't go to this trouble for images below 3200 ISO, but its pretty simple. You want the K20 V9 Border Corrector which i've read elsewhere also works on K7 images (don't have k7 so can't confirm this myself)

I use LR3 for all images below 3200 ISO, and perhaps some 3200 iso images. For images that really need PP, i use Topaz4, which is the top software according to a number of "experts" (which i don't count myself one of :-)) But i don't think most people need Topaz with the new LR3. LR is so much faster than Topaz that its a no-brainer for me. But when you have an image that is really dirty with noise, than Topaz is tops to get some kind of image. I already had Topaz 3 and a free upgrade offer so i got 4, not sure i would have, otherwise.

Others will undoubtedly have different opinions. Different courses, different horses i guess.

06-30-2010, 04:25 PM   #20
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QuoteOriginally posted by Lowell Goudge Quote
for the little birds you almost always need flash in the forrest. you don't even need that long a lens

the shot below was with my FA 28-105 F4-5.6 on my *istD. Saw this guy on a hike, in the woods, just put the pop up flash up and got him.
Lowell, you certainly have the knack for using flash, especially using the built-in one at that.
You just popped the flash ... ? Care to tell me more?
Great shot again!

JP
06-30-2010, 05:38 PM   #21
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QuoteOriginally posted by philbaum Quote
Sorry I didn't get back here right away.

This is the GordonbGood link for the Magenta removing software:

Distributed Programs - Windows Live

Note: If you use this, just put all the images you want done in a specific folder and list that in the table. then press enter and it will quickly go through, adding an MC prefix. I don't go to this trouble for images below 3200 ISO, but its pretty simple. You want the K20 V9 Border Corrector which i've read elsewhere also works on K7 images (don't have k7 so can't confirm this myself)

I use LR3 for all images below 3200 ISO, and perhaps some 3200 iso images. For images that really need PP, i use Topaz4, which is the top software according to a number of "experts" (which i don't count myself one of :-)) But i don't think most people need Topaz with the new LR3. LR is so much faster than Topaz that its a no-brainer for me. But when you have an image that is really dirty with noise, than Topaz is tops to get some kind of image. I already had Topaz 3 and a free upgrade offer so i got 4, not sure i would have, otherwise.

Others will undoubtedly have different opinions. Different courses, different horses i guess.
Thanks Phil!

So, when I got to the web page, I saw that you could download the zipped file. Once I do that, what happens besides following the instructions you just gave me about making a specific folder for the files.
When I downloaded, I got to an .exe file which, when clicked, opened another window with explanations on top, and two areas to enter the Source Folder and the Destination Folder.
At the bottom, there is yet another area in which would show "Activity Log".
So, my question is: what am I to do once I get to that window?

I have yet to download a trial version of Topaz Denoise or buy it outright right away. I am wondering if that would definitely do a better job than NoisewarePro? Price for the DNoise Plug-in software is $79.00, and there isn't a stand-alone version.

Thanks again.

JP
07-01-2010, 03:49 PM   #22
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QuoteOriginally posted by jpzk Quote
Lowell, you certainly have the knack for using flash, especially using the built-in one at that.
You just popped the flash ... ? Care to tell me more?
Great shot again!

JP
What I do is go to manual and set the shutter ti max sync speed. That's about it if I am in a hurry

With the long lens I used on the chickadee I stop down so that the natural lighting exposure is about 1-2 stops under exposed, this way the background fades to dark
07-01-2010, 06:35 PM   #23
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QuoteOriginally posted by Lowell Goudge Quote
What I do is go to manual and set the shutter ti max sync speed. That's about it if I am in a hurry

With the long lens I used on the chickadee I stop down so that the natural lighting exposure is about 1-2 stops under exposed, this way the background fades to dark
Thanks Lowell,
I have to try that.
Cheers.
JP

07-02-2010, 01:59 AM   #24
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Bird shots and natural vs flash - something to consider:

I never use a flash.

I'm taking more than just a picture of the bare bird but also the natural habitat it's found in. An integral part of that habitat is the lighting the bird is normally found in.

Many birds are deep woods birds like warblers and the thrushes and I want to preserve the ambiance of their habitat but flash destroys that.

I use very long slow glass and shot often in low light situations.

One method that I use is to shoot in continuous mode. You would be surprised that often out a series of rapid fire shots two or three are often sharp even when shooting at 1/15 or 1/30. But I always shoot with a tripod.

Also you could use either separately or in combination with the above a NR program. I have gone out to 3200 with my K20 using DeNoise with decent results.

I don't want to start a debate over flash vs natural light. If you are satisfied with your flash pics of birds fine - I was not.

A few of my low natural light shots. The last one was taken at ISO3200 with a K20 and run through DeNoise.

Last edited by wildman; 07-30-2010 at 07:22 PM.
07-02-2010, 03:18 PM   #25
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I think the decision about flash is in the technique. With natural lighting there ismalso the shift to green in the WB as well as the fact that warblers fr example don't sit still. Overall a good flash shot can show both the bird and habitat or be used to isolate the bird. Both can work
07-02-2010, 04:20 PM   #26
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QuoteOriginally posted by jpzk Quote
Thanks Phil!

So, when I got to the web page, I saw that you could download the zipped file. Once I do that, what happens besides following the instructions you just gave me about making a specific folder for the files.
When I downloaded, I got to an .exe file which, when clicked, opened another window with explanations on top, and two areas to enter the Source Folder and the Destination Folder.
At the bottom, there is yet another area in which would show "Activity Log".
So, my question is: what am I to do once I get to that window?

I have yet to download a trial version of Topaz Denoise or buy it outright right away. I am wondering if that would definitely do a better job than NoisewarePro? Price for the DNoise Plug-in software is $79.00, and there isn't a stand-alone version.

Thanks again.

JP
JP, its funny that i got hung up at the same place. Just click on the Browse button and select the folder where the images are that you want to change, these can be PEF files. Then click on the next Browse button if you want the target directory to be different than the source, if not, continue on to the "Correct" button and thats all there is to it. In the Activity button you will see progress as it puts the MC in front of each photo to indicate "magenta corrected", i suppose. I don't think there is anyway to select just a single photo, you pretty much have to correct all the pics in the folder, if there is just a single one in the folder, it will do that.

I can't speak to noiseware and compare it to Topaz. But i consider LR3 to be very good, and fast, at lower levels of noise, and Topaz is even better (but slow) than LR3. I've seen it for myself on some live performance pics.
07-05-2010, 08:03 AM   #27
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If I look at the quality of the photos in this thread, flash vs ambient, there's no question that I prefer the natural look. The flashed photos all show obvious signs of artificial lighting.
07-08-2010, 06:02 PM   #28
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QuoteOriginally posted by wildman Quote
Bird shots and natural vs flash - something to consider:

I never use a flash.

I'm taking more than just a picture of the bare bird but also the natural habitat it's found in. An integral part of that habitat is the lighting the bird is normally found in.

Many birds are deep woods birds like warblers and the thrushes and I want to preserve the ambiance of their habitat but flash destroys that.

I use very long slow glass and shot often in low light situations.

One method that I use is to shoot in continuous mode. You would be surprised that often out a series of rapid fire shots two or three are often sharp even when shooting at 1/15 or 1/30. But I always shoot with a tripod.

Also you could use either separately or in combination with the above a NR program. I have gone out to 3200 with my K20 using DeNoise with decent results.

I don't want to start a debate over flash vs natural light. If you are satisfied with your flash pics of birds fine - I was not.

A few of my low natural light shots. The last one was taken at ISO3200 with a K20 and run through DeNoise.
I too like the natural habitat/environment when taking birds pics.
Of course, what I was asking at the beginning was "another" way to properly expose in a very unfriendly lighting situation: dark, deep mature coniferous forest where the kinglets unmistakingly "hide" in the deepest spots possible on and in between the branches. Plus, those birds are VERY small and camouflage well with their habitat.
I noticed that even if the birds you "shot" were partly obscured with branches and leaves, you still had a fair anount of good light.

I admit never really pushed the ISO beyond 1600-2000 because of the resulting noise issues. I did try a couple of shots at 2000-2500 over the past few days and I find that NoisewarePro handles the noise in an acceptable manner, certainly not as well, seemingly, as you show here using DeNoise.
I have resolved that DeNoise ought to be my next purchase if I am going to push ISO that way, also considering that I have decided to push it as well with the K7. Now, that is a different story.

Thanks for the input ... great shots you have.

JP
07-08-2010, 06:04 PM   #29
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QuoteOriginally posted by Lowell Goudge Quote
I think the decision about flash is in the technique. With natural lighting there ismalso the shift to green in the WB as well as the fact that warblers fr example don't sit still. Overall a good flash shot can show both the bird and habitat or be used to isolate the bird. Both can work
That is what I was trying to get at. Restless, very small, well camouflaged birdies in a very dark lighting condtion nearly 100% of the time.
Anyway, I still am trying to figure it out.
Thanks for the reply.

JP
07-08-2010, 06:52 PM   #30
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QuoteOriginally posted by philbaum Quote
JP, its funny that i got hung up at the same place. Just click on the Browse button and select the folder where the images are that you want to change, these can be PEF files. Then click on the next Browse button if you want the target directory to be different than the source, if not, continue on to the "Correct" button and thats all there is to it. In the Activity button you will see progress as it puts the MC in front of each photo to indicate "magenta corrected", i suppose. I don't think there is anyway to select just a single photo, you pretty much have to correct all the pics in the folder, if there is just a single one in the folder, it will do that.

I can't speak to noiseware and compare it to Topaz. But i consider LR3 to be very good, and fast, at lower levels of noise, and Topaz is even better (but slow) than LR3. I've seen it for myself on some live performance pics.
Thanks Phil.

I went trhough the process, as you explained, and I think it worked. What I mean is that there was not that much difference between the originals and the "MC"'d pics, maybe a bit less of that unwanted magenta.
The process took all of about 0.05 second! I only had five pics in the folder, as a test.
For taking care of noise issues, I have almost made up my mind to get Topaz DeNoise because it is much cheaper than LR3. I sure don't mind if it is "slow"; I can live with that.

Cheers.

JP
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