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06-29-2010, 06:09 PM   #31
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QuoteOriginally posted by zxaar Quote
As you say the difference is minuscule and it does not disproves the notion that k20d was basically at the top of the class, but the same time it does not prove that k20d was at the top.
True. In fact, because there is no single measure that is universally agreed upon to compare sensors, this is basically a claim that cannot be proven or disproven completely objectively. And no one would literally mean it that way. So quoting individual stats to either prove or disprove the claim is kind of pointless. but showing a variety of different measures that all point to a trend could be worthwhile. So far, we have one stat showing the K20D within a fraction of an EV of the best score ever recorded on that metric by an APS-C camera, but we'd need more similar stats to really establish a trend.

QuoteQuote:
All in all this supports OP.
I don't see how. It's still the case that you need to look at specific sensors, not the company that makes them, and it's still the case that the particular Sony sensor he is asking about is generally outperformed by subsequent sensors from both Sony and Samsung. Again, not necessarily by enough to really matter.

06-29-2010, 06:19 PM   #32
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QuoteOriginally posted by ducdao Quote
So to go back to the original purpose of this thread do we have the final list of all Pentax DLSR with their respective sensor as below?
Your list is correct, although I'm not sure if differentiating the two Samsung sensors based on the number of read-out channels is the best way to differentiate them. Not saying it isn't, though.

QuoteQuote:
The K10D is really fuzzy to me, can someone post a link from official source confirming that the K10D really uses a Sony sensor?
I'm not sure how anyone ever got the idea it used anything else, but every single review says it uses a Sony 10MP sensor. There's basically reason to doubt this. If someone wants to dispute what every single knowledgeable person who has written about the camera says, I think the burden of proof should be on the person doing the disputing. That is until someone proves otherwise, there is no reason to doubt what everyone generally acknowledges to be true - K10D uses a Sony 10MP sensor, just as the K200D and K-m/K2000 do.
06-29-2010, 07:43 PM   #33
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QuoteOriginally posted by audiobomber Quote
I know it will be better because the technology is still advancing. There have been reports of a new and better Samsung sensor in the works. Sony is always working on something new. Foveon sensors are said to do some things bettter than any other. What's unknown is whether Pentax will stay with Samsung, go with Sony, or do something totally different (unlikely).



According to DPR, the K20D has lower noise than a Nikon D300, which uses the same sensor as the Sony. Some of the (early?) K20D sensors were not up to scratch. If you read threads on K20D noise, a few people have serious banding at high ISO, while most don't. I suspect the DXOMark K20D was sub-par and that's why it didn't achieve the same mark as the GX20. I can't think of any other explanation, unless the explanation is that DXO measurements are flawed, which is what some people believe.



For someone who shoots video, the K-7 sensor is better than the K20D sensor. IME, the K20D renders colours better and has a more 3-D look than the K-x, which makes it a better landscape shooter. Some portrait specialists rave about the K20D skin tones. The K-x is a stop better for low light. Clearly the K-7 is a better camera than the K20D and the K20D is a better camera than a K-x. I carry the K20, K-x, or both, depending on what I need for the day. It's nice to have variety.



I'm glad that Sony entered the DSLR market. Their aggressive marketing and technological resources are helping to push the envelope. But these big companies don't own the market on innovation. The next revolutionary advance could come from left field.

I love how you discredit others to say what you want to say despite the facts.

For example - you discredit dxomark because it does not say what you say.

Further you put so much weight on dpr's review which primarily camera review site and not a sensor review or testing site like dxomark (which obviously flawed because does not say what you like it to say).

further you say that for you k7 is better with your subjective criterias , do you same time forget that the same dpr's k7 review says that k20d performs better than k7 in terms of raw image quality.

Anyway k20d is just one sensor and using this you can not make general statements. Further k20 was on par not better than others in terms of sensor.
06-29-2010, 08:01 PM   #34
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QuoteOriginally posted by Marc Sabatella Quote
True. In fact, because there is no single measure that is universally agreed upon to compare sensors, this is basically a claim that cannot be proven or disproven completely objectively. And no one would literally mean it that way. So quoting individual stats to either prove or disprove the claim is kind of pointless. but showing a variety of different measures that all point to a trend could be worthwhile. So far, we have one stat showing the K20D within a fraction of an EV of the best score ever recorded on that metric by an APS-C camera, but we'd need more similar stats to really establish a trend.
Mark do you realise that my original post where i quoted the positions of cameras on dxomark was in reply to categorical and definitive statement like - k20d had best apc sensor the time it was released.

i only showed that one of the reputed site do not agree with it.

The poster could have easily said the sensor that samsung made for k20d was on par with others the time it was released and there is no reason for them not to repeat it.

Wasn't pointless as you said.

06-29-2010, 08:29 PM   #35
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QuoteOriginally posted by zxaar Quote
further you say that for you k7 is better with your subjective criterias , do you same time forget that the same dpr's k7 review says that k20d performs better than k7 in terms of raw image quality.
I said the K-7 is a better camera than K20D.

QuoteOriginally posted by zxaar Quote
Anyway k20d is just one sensor and using this you can not make general statements. Further k20 was on par not better than others in terms of sensor.
I'm not the one making general statements about how Sony sensors are better than anyone else's, regardless of generation, which is where this thread started. The K20D was the best sensor when it was released because it had equal or better noise performance than the competition AND MORE RESOLUTION.
06-30-2010, 09:50 AM   #36
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QuoteOriginally posted by zxaar Quote
Mark do you realise that my original post where i quoted the positions of cameras on dxomark was in reply to categorical and definitive statement like - k20d had best apc sensor the time it was released.
Yes, and that's exactly what I responded to - the notion that one number taken out of context could possibly disprove such a claim. I'd have similarly taken issue with any use of the same technique (taking one number out of context) to *prove* such a claim. But I think we are in agreement that the statement itself *cannot* really be definitely proven. Such a statement would have to be understood relative to the context in which it was made. If it had appeared someone really thought it was literally an objectively true by any possible measure, I'd have taken issue with that statement too. But I didn't get any such sense. The statement appeared to be simply refuting the implication that the K20D sensor was not "great".
07-02-2010, 04:19 AM   #37
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This argument is funny, because the differences between individual sensors of the same size is actually quite small. If you want to see differences in noise and dynamic range then you have to move up to full frame.

I am annoyed when people compare Jpeg engines to decide how good a sensor is. I might shoot jpeg at low iso, but for anything that I want to make adjustments to later RAW is the way to go. Noise reduction in LR 3 is quite amazing and tends to even the playing field considerably.
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