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07-10-2010, 02:10 AM   #181
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QuoteOriginally posted by Aristophanes Quote
Panasonic is making a move from their 3CCD video sensor array which has always been very good, towards a single sensor M4/3.
That may be driven by other reasons, like the larger sensor enabling larger physical apertures and a DoF effect which is hyped so much in the consumer video market.

I only made a rough calculation. But a 3CCD array uses a trichroic prism which induces a sort of chromatic abberation. It may be flawless for 720p or even 1080p but may be a problem for a high resolution still camera.

You may remember that I once looked at the option to replace the mirror box by a trichroic prism for high end still cameras. ->

https://www.pentaxforums.com/forums/non-pentax-cameras-canon-nikon-etc/92366-...ex-camera.html

The real advantage of a 3CCD system is it's better quantum efficiency. Yes, you compensate by a larger sensor. But it needs larger and more expensive lenses too. But then, larger and more expensive lenses enable the DoF effect and so, Panasonic may have decided that the market would go this route anyway. And a 3CCD system with FT sensors would be relatively heavy and not offer high resolution still photos.

Ultimatively, I hope that the Bayer filter is replaced by trichroic prisms built right into the microlenses and a single pixel becomes a superset of 3CCD, Foveon and Bayer. The patent for this was filed by Nikon already.


Last edited by falconeye; 07-10-2010 at 02:18 AM.
07-10-2010, 11:17 AM   #182
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Original Poster
> falconeye

It's 2:20am here in HK and I am using matchsticks to keep my eyes open waiting for the Germany Uruguay game.

Even still, I was able to follow and understand your post. Very interesting, thanks to your ability to clearly and succinctly explain. Thanks and good luck in the game (you shouldn't need it).
07-11-2010, 03:23 AM   #183
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QuoteOriginally posted by Unsinkable II Quote
Thanks and good luck in the game (you shouldn't need it).
Thanks since we depended on the luck sent by you from HK a lot
Where have you been in our Spain match? :ugh:
07-11-2010, 07:21 AM   #184
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QuoteOriginally posted by falconeye Quote
Thanks since we depended on the luck sent by you from HK a lot
Where have you been in our Spain match? :ugh:
Congratulations. I hope any bit helped, but you were missing some great players...

Regarding the previous game, sorry I couldn't help as I'm half Spanish!

Being half English didn't help me against the Germans though! :ugh:

I'm getting the matchsticks out for tonight's game now... 10:25pm and "only" 4 hours to go... (to the beginning!)

07-14-2010, 06:04 PM   #185
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QuoteOriginally posted by falconeye Quote
Its fair enough to disagree with my prediction. It may be wrong after all

However, sensor size is standardized with each mount. I agree, you can standardize a separate sensor size for every mount. Except that then, third party lenses won't exist.

And there is only one SLR mount standardized for less than FF, which is FT. And FT-SLRs are dead already! All other SLR mounts are standardized for FF which is the reason why APSC will die out quicker than you can blink. Again, I can be wrong. But I fear I'm not.


I'm not under NDA and therefore, Pentax is careful with what they let me know... So, I know something significant is coming but if it is "big" ... we'll see.


I undersign your post and love your tsunami analogy a lot. Here near the Alps, the term landslide is popular too

Of course, you need a certain control over the sensor manufacturing process to actually make this happen. Interesting times ahead of us
I'd say your prediction is quite right. The only thing in doubt is the timing, but eventually, the inevitable will come to pass, with "eventually" not being as long as many might think. The singular genuine advantage to APS-C was always the sensor cost differential combined with market reality, i.e., the ability to sell cameras for a given price. As the sensor cost differential continues to narrow, there won't any longer be any real reason to have APS-C dSLRs, when the cameras have all (with the exception of the noted 4/3 experiment, now on the way out) been designed around a 35mm lens mount and register distance. One taste of a FF viewfinder and even the biggest APS-C cheerleaders will suddenly forget the "advantages" of the "less than half frame" format.

I'd still say the best move for Pentax is to differentiate themselves along exactly that line, i.e., come out with a FF dSLR that has a viewfinder rivaling (or even surpassing) those of film days, i.e., 95% magnification instead of 70-76% offered by competitors.
07-14-2010, 07:26 PM   #186
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QuoteOriginally posted by 24X36NOW Quote
I'd say your prediction is quite right. The only thing in doubt is the timing, but eventually, the inevitable will come to pass, with "eventually" not being as long as many might think. The singular genuine advantage to APS-C was always the sensor cost differential combined with market reality, i.e., the ability to sell cameras for a given price. As the sensor cost differential continues to narrow, there won't any longer be any real reason to have APS-C dSLRs, when the cameras have all (with the exception of the noted 4/3 experiment, now on the way out) been designed around a 35mm lens mount and register distance. One taste of a FF viewfinder and even the biggest APS-C cheerleaders will suddenly forget the "advantages" of the "less than half frame" format.

I'd still say the best move for Pentax is to differentiate themselves along exactly that line, i.e., come out with a FF dSLR that has a viewfinder rivaling (or even surpassing) those of film days, i.e., 95% magnification instead of 70-76% offered by competitors.
Sony A900

Sony Alpha 900 Review: 1. Introduction: Digital Photography Review

DPR writes

"100% viewfinder coverage (A700 is 95%)"

Where do you get this 70 - 76% figure.

In anyway, sony has already offered A850 for around 1900$ that is only 500$ above the k7's release price.

But as someone made comment that pentax should not follow Sony because sony's way was unintelligent.
07-14-2010, 11:17 PM   #187
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Some nice pictures of foveon's prism system from a decade ago at this link:

NEWS! - PhotoPlus Expo East 2000 Live Coverage
07-15-2010, 12:29 AM   #188
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QuoteOriginally posted by zxaar Quote
Sony A900

Sony Alpha 900 Review: 1. Introduction: Digital Photography Review

DPR writes

"100% viewfinder coverage (A700 is 95%)"

Where do you get this 70 - 76% figure.
Viewfinder coverage and Magnification are to different things. The a900 has 100% coverage and 0.74x magnification

07-15-2010, 01:24 AM   #189
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QuoteOriginally posted by kxr4trids Quote
Some nice pictures of foveon's prism system from a decade ago
Thanxs kxr4trids, I updated my post in the other thread to take your info into account.
07-16-2010, 05:47 PM   #190
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QuoteOriginally posted by eigelb Quote
Viewfinder coverage and Magnification are to different things. The a900 has 100% coverage and 0.74x magnification

thanks for correting. I must admit i need to learn a lot.

Thanks again, now i know the difference.
07-16-2010, 06:29 PM   #191
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QuoteOriginally posted by Unsinkable II Quote
I would have thought it would work to their favour to announce it early.

Much like the 645D.

There is a ton of MF legacy glass lying around, and people want to know if a digital body can make use of it.

By announcing a FF body early, you'd get the attention of owners of Pentax 35mm glass, many of whom no doubt are currently using other brands.

I would conclude that Pentax isn't going to release a FF body this year.

If they do release one, they boobed by not saying so earlier (am not suggesting revealing full specs, just "there's going to be a FF body!").
All this makes much sense on many aspects.

However, the announcement of the 645D cannot be compared with the announcement of a future FF DSLR, simply because the 645D is a niche product, with little competition from Pentax's usual competitors (Canon, Nikon, Sony, Panasonic, Olympus).

Even Phase One, Mamiya, Leaf and Hasselblad don't that much to worry from Pentax, simply because this MF digital camera is not aimed at their customers, many of them the pro advertising photographers. (Well, at least they don't need to worry for now... in the future, it might be different. )

Sure, the announcement of the 645D did result in lots of pre-orders for that camera, but even though it was a huge success, we're talking about hundreds of units, here. Not tens or hundreds of thousands of units.

Now for more mainstream products (APS-C enthusiast DSLR, EVIL cameras, P&S cameras, lenses and accessories, and even FF enthusiast DSLR), announcing a new product too early isn't always a good idea. And there are many reasons for that.

First and most important, it could hurt APS-C sales if the FF camera was announced too early. People would not buy the K-x or K-7 replacements because they would be waiting for a FF DSLR. And they would stop buying most Pentax lenses, because most of the lenses are APS-C only. And with only a few FA (including the expensive Limited lenses), DFA and FF compatible DA lenses, some people would start buying Sigma lenses to prepare for the new Pentax FF.

Second, if they announced a FF camera, the competitors would know in advance and they could prepare to fight back with price drops, improved versions of already existing FF DSLRs at a lower price, etc. That would be giving the competitors the advantage to catch up with Pentax's new, potentially more affordable FF body with new features and lower price on their own FF bodies.

Third and most unlikely to happen, if the FF is announced and the release is delayed, the Pentax brand could lose the trust of future would-be buyers, who would turn to competitors who can be "trusted" with their announcements. Just remember how the DA*60-250 saga made some people angry... and depressed!

So for all these reasons, I think Hoya will wait 'til the last moment before releasing any new FF (or even APS-C body, for that matter).
  1. Protect your already existing products from the hype factor of your newest products by announcing the new products just before they're released.
  2. Protect your upcoming products from your competitors' products by announcing these new products just before they are released.
  3. Protect yourself by not making promises you can't keep, like for instance announcing a new product only to push back the release of this product again and again.

So even if Hoya has plans to release a FF Pentax DSLR within the next 12 months, I doubt they would announce such a camera within the next 8 to 10 months. They'd wait until 2 to 6 weeks before the release to announce such a new product.

I wish Hoya release a FF body... but I really doubt they will. Not until 2012 and, hey, it's the year when the world ends, right?

Last edited by tigrebleu; 07-16-2010 at 06:34 PM.
07-17-2010, 01:32 AM   #192
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QuoteOriginally posted by tigrebleu Quote
So even if Hoya has plans to release a FF Pentax DSLR within the next 12 months, I doubt they would announce such a camera within the next 8 to 10 months. They'd wait until 2 to 6 weeks before the release to announce such a new product.
I'd agree. Normally. Not here though.

The entire FF discussion has reached a critical point for Pentax. Not only in the internet forums but in general too.

If Pentax does not at least announce at Photokina that they'll release an FF camera in 2010 or 2011 then the damage (in lost user base migrating elsewhere) will be larger than the damage due to users withholding their purchase decision.
07-17-2010, 03:30 AM   #193
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QuoteOriginally posted by falconeye Quote
If Pentax does not at least announce at Photokina that they'll release an FF camera in 2010 or 2011 then the damage (in lost user base migrating elsewhere) will be larger than the damage due to users withholding their purchase decision.
i'm not sure how these corporate decisions get made, but given pentax' recent precarious position, wouldn't hoya be doing marketing/customer surveys to determine whether such a step is warranted? i would imagine that the decision to go for colorful kx' did not just emerge and get taken up by hoya on its own. and while the extent of the overseas interest in and demand for the 645d must be a pleasant surprise of sorts for hoya, surely the decision to pursue a project which had been of such longstanding that it had become the object of ridicule in some circles must have been carefully reviewed with its potential for success in the home (japanese) market in mind?

at this point, wouldn't it be unlikely that individual opinions about ff, evil, etc., would prevail over actual data re potential customer purchases that decision makers and marketers can point to? it might boil down to something like: at what price point would you purchase a new on the market pentax ff camera instead of a known quantity canon or nikon? in conjunction with lens, marketing and support issues, the answer might not actually favor a move into ff for pentax, even if the price of ff sensors comes down and even if it means loss of some customers.
07-17-2010, 03:46 AM   #194
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QuoteOriginally posted by falconeye Quote
I'd agree. Normally. Not here though.

The entire FF discussion has reached a critical point for Pentax. Not only in the internet forums but in general too.

If Pentax does not at least announce at Photokina that they'll release an FF camera in 2010 or 2011 then the damage (in lost user base migrating elsewhere) will be larger than the damage due to users withholding their purchase decision.
This may be true, but over all, Pentax/Hoya has been extremely secretive, even about things that wouldn't make any difference at all with sales of current products. In particular, they have given us no idea about what lenses to expect, what they are working on. I understand the importance of not letting people down, but it seems like they should work hard to create "buzz" between releases.

The biggest negative to me about full frame is that most of my current lenses (DA 35, DA 16-50, DA 50-135, DA 10-17) won't work on it. For those who have bought into APS-C, it will be expensive to up grade to full frame. Either selling gear and buying new, or using the lenses with a crop factor (thereby negating the benefits of full frame). Also, it will make the used market even hotter. Feels like deals are few and far between any more, at least on e bay. I can't imagine of Pentax releases a full frame camera how high prices on ancient equipment could go.
07-17-2010, 01:07 PM   #195
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we can only hope to speculate the reason why Pentax has been so quite is that Pentax indeed has something under their sleeve or a secret. much like the k-x surprise which came out of nowhere. it is probable. and I would agree that the next thing for Pentax should be FF for it's semi/pro line market. to be honest, an upcoming APS-C semi/pro dslr doesn't seem that too lucrative, especially if it's 2 predecessors had been really outstanding. an ISO upgrade (sensor type) only is not even worth a $1200 price tag nor beyond that.
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