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07-19-2010, 03:37 AM   #211
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QuoteOriginally posted by creampuff Quote
Leica probably makes more money from licensing its name on the lenses of Panasonic cameras that rolls out from factories in Japan and China.
Why do you dig into speculation when their business report is public?

They say: "Currently, products younger than nine months account for more than 50 % of Leica’s sales". And in Germany, a license isn't a product. They mention S2, M9, X1 and CRF1600.

The CRF1600 may be less well known and therefore I provide a link for your convenience: Leica Camera AG - Sport Optics - CRF 1600

07-19-2010, 03:56 AM   #212
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QuoteOriginally posted by Pentaxor Quote
as far as I can tell, there is a lot more uproar on the demand for a fullframe rather than an EVIL camera. an EVIL camera may be the next step and is somehow the talk of the town right now. but there hasn't been that much of an urgent need or request from the forum members to have one asap.
I think that's what Pentax has to do. Full frame will be awesome, but we already have awesome Canikon and sony FF's. I hope Pentax will release an awesome full frame mirrorless camera slightly smaller than K-7 and of course a lot thinner where the mirror usually is. Equip it with a k-mount and I will literally jizz in my pants!
07-19-2010, 05:01 AM   #213
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There are Nikon and Canon FF dSLRs, none of which mount K Mount lenses without butchering them (and in that case only Canon). EVIL cameras will accept K Mount lenses with adapters already, (without butchery) so it is completely unnecessary for Pentax to make an EVIL camera in order for Pentax users to use their Pentax lenses on one. Further, using 35mm format lenses (or APS-C lenses which are either 35mm format lenses or lenses that use the same mount and register distance but cover a smaller image circle) on an EVIL camera defeats the whole purpose of EVIL cameras, which is small size/weight. Most EVIL buyers will probably want the small lenses to go with the small cameras (and not use a big adapter to mount 35mm register distance lenses), and therefore can just buy the ones already introduced, even if they are Pentax shooters in other (i.e. dSLR) product lines.

"Calculating" the Pentax share of the FF market based on current numbers is complete nonsense on a number of levels. First, it assumes that the FF market share will remain where it is, which is a function of price for the most part. Since the sensor prices are coming down, so will the camera prices, and that will bring the only genuine "advantage" of APS-C cameras to an end. As the prices come down, the market share will climb. Further, the "survey" results are not necessarily indicative of the entirety of the Pentax user base, nor is it indicative of what those who claim they won't buy a FF dSLR will actually do when one is available from Pentax, which offers them not only the ability to use their K Mount glass on it, but also the smaller size/weight that Pentax will offer (as it always has) compared with Canon/Nikon.

At this point, making a FF dSLR is imperative for Pentax, as it is beginning to hemorrhage "enthusiast" and professional users already, a trend that will continue and accelerate if they fail to produce a FF dSLR. Making an EVIL on the other hand just puts them into another market segment that their current user base does not need them to be in in order to use their lenses (i.e., adapters already are coming out to use K Mount glass on EVIL cameras being introduced). An also-ran EVIL camera will not get much profit for Pentax (since they'll be forced into commodity pricing going up against the likes of SONY and Samsung for a product that doesn't have any existing Pentax user base) and will not stop the hemorrhaging of the Pentax enthusiast/professional user base. A FF dSLR will not only be profitable but will stem and may even reverse the loss of "enthusiast" and professional users, and that is why they should pursue a FF dSLR long before wasting their time with EVILs. Pentax will survive the lack of an EVIL camera for quite a long time; it will not survive the lack of a FF dSLR camera for much longer, as much more delay will do damage that Pentax won't recover from, especially as FF dSLR prices decline.
07-19-2010, 06:10 AM   #214
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QuoteOriginally posted by 24X36NOW Quote
"Calculating" the Pentax share of the FF market based on current numbers is complete nonsense on a number of levels.
No...it's called "reality". Nonsense would be believing that the world will beat a path to Pentax's door if they'd only make a FF DSLR. At some point, it will make sense for Pentax to include a FF sensor into a current camera and to develop a NEW lens line to accompany it. I'm stressing the word "new" because Pentax has shown no interest in reviving past FF lens designs. That could change...but it's not likely.

QuoteQuote:
At this point, making a FF dSLR is imperative for Pentax, as it is beginning to hemorrhage "enthusiast" and professional users already...
If this is why you believe its imperative for Pentax to offer a FF DSLR, you're only about 3 decades behind the curve. Pentax pros are practically non-existant...and have been for a long, long time. That's not to say they don't exist. But for every Pentax using pro, there are about 500 (and that's being kind) who shoot Canon/Nikon. By the way, I'm talking about pros who use Pentax's small cameras. If we were to include pros who shot Pentax's medium format cameras, Pentax's share woul go up dramatically.

07-19-2010, 06:48 AM   #215
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QuoteOriginally posted by TaoMaas Quote
No...it's called "reality". Nonsense would be believing that the world will beat a path to Pentax's door if they'd only make a FF DSLR. At some point, it will make sense for Pentax to include a FF sensor into a current camera and to develop a NEW lens line to accompany it. I'm stressing the word "new" because Pentax has shown no interest in reviving past FF lens designs. That could change...but it's not likely.
While I agree with much of what you are saying, I can't read much into the lens development. Lenses to cover 24x36 are mature products for a company which has been making them for about half a century. Many of the best Pentax primes are FF, and how much effort would it really take to reintroduce those excellent FF lenses which were only discontinued a few years ago? Designing compact lenses which take full advantage of the size of the APS-c sensor is a much newer frontier.
07-19-2010, 07:24 AM   #216
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QuoteOriginally posted by GeneV Quote
Designing compact lenses which take full advantage of the size of the APS-c sensor is a much newer frontier.
You're exactly right. And yet, this is where Pentax seems to be putting most of their lens efforts. That ought to tell us something.
07-19-2010, 07:29 AM   #217
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QuoteOriginally posted by TaoMaas Quote
You're exactly right. And yet, this is where Pentax seems to be putting most of their lens efforts. That ought to tell us something.
It tells me that regardless of whether they introduce a FF camera soon, their current plan is not abandon APS-c. However, the fact that a number of the newer lenses actually may cover full frame pretty well may say something as well.
07-19-2010, 07:37 AM   #218
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QuoteOriginally posted by TaoMaas Quote
You're exactly right. And yet, this is where Pentax seems to be putting most of their lens efforts. That ought to tell us something.
Pentax hasn't released new APS-C lenses for a long time. The DA15 was the last one, and it was officially introduced in March, 2009. That's 16 months ago! That ought to tell us something...

07-19-2010, 09:55 AM   #219
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QuoteOriginally posted by Asahiflex Quote
Pentax hasn't released new APS-C lenses for a long time. The DA15 was the last one, and it was officially introduced in March, 2009. That's 16 months ago! That ought to tell us something...
...in the meantime we have the D-FA 100/2.8 Macro. The most interesting is that they maintain the FF nomenclature (D-FA). That definitely tells me something. If there were no FF plans it would be called DA like earlier FF lenses (like the DA* 200/2.8)...
07-20-2010, 04:47 AM   #220
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I don't believe Pentax is "hemorrhaging" anything right now. If anything, it is in a stronger place than it has been in the last five years due to some strong releases, particularly the kx. Lower end cameras feed upper end cameras (although I don't really see the kx feeding the 645D due to differing lenses).

The question is really comes down to the question of what price could Pentax release a full frame camera at. From what I can see on the forum here, the magic number is around 1000 dollars. Above that and people gripe about cost, below that and people start to buy.
07-20-2010, 05:01 AM   #221
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
I don't believe Pentax is "hemorrhaging" anything right now. If anything, it is in a stronger place than it has been in the last five years due to some strong releases, particularly the kx. Lower end cameras feed upper end cameras (although I don't really see the kx feeding the 645D due to differing lenses).

The question is really comes down to the question of what price could Pentax release a full frame camera at. From what I can see on the forum here, the magic number is around 1000 dollars. Above that and people gripe about cost, below that and people start to buy.
1000 Dollars? Make that 1500-2000, because 1000 dollars is ridiculously low (at least today; in the future I could see FF for $1000 though.

I do agree that Pentax does need someting to upgrade to for the current K10D, K20D and K-7 owners. Not an APS-C camera please..
07-20-2010, 11:21 AM   #222
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
I don't believe Pentax is "hemorrhaging" anything right now. If anything, it is in a stronger place than it has been in the last five years due to some strong releases, particularly the kx. Lower end cameras feed upper end cameras (although I don't really see the kx feeding the 645D due to differing lenses).

The question is really comes down to the question of what price could Pentax release a full frame camera at. From what I can see on the forum here, the magic number is around 1000 dollars. Above that and people gripe about cost, below that and people start to buy.
we can only speculate about that magic number. but the truth is, people are doing the switch or getting a 5D MK II and Nikon D700 which are obviously more than just over 1,000. if people are willing to switch or buy something worth that much that isn't even a Pentax, what if so Pentax finally releases a FF. the gripes about the pricing would only be to a few that still think that Pentax is still a bargain brand. but I wont dismiss the possibility that the price would be somewhat significantly less than the other brands inorder to woe consumers away from the competition or create a buzz in the dslr market. the only way that Pentax would price something slightly above 1,000 is when they want to start a new price trend in the market and implement a revised way of earning a profit.

anyway, the point here is that it doesn't matter what the pricing would be for the Pentax FF dslr. at the end of the day, people will just be as happy that there is a Pentax FF dslr that they can save up for.

Last edited by Pentaxor; 07-20-2010 at 11:39 AM.
07-20-2010, 11:34 AM   #223
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You all are right, in a sense. If Pentax was trying to market full frame to Canon/Nikon owners, the price of 2000 dollars would work just fine. The problem is that Pentaxians, used to a bargain, tend to gripe about any price. I very much doubt that Pentax will woo Canon/Nikon users away by releasing full frame. Those users tend to be pretty well embedded due to having large glass collections already. the question is really how many K20/K7 users are looking for full frame and the answer really depends on the price.
07-20-2010, 11:53 AM   #224
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
You all are right, in a sense. If Pentax was trying to market full frame to Canon/Nikon owners, the price of 2000 dollars would work just fine. The problem is that Pentaxians, used to a bargain, tend to gripe about any price. I very much doubt that Pentax will woo Canon/Nikon users away by releasing full frame. Those users tend to be pretty well embedded due to having large glass collections already. the question is really how many K20/K7 users are looking for full frame and the answer really depends on the price.
trying to woe somebody that is embedded to another system can be tricky. there are those with some huge lens collections and fanboys to contend with as well. although it is possible that some of those will do the switch. the easiest would be those who don't have any gear that would make them contemplate of staying, and there are those who uses m/42 and desecrated K-mount lenses on their EOS and FX bodies.

with regards to the question of how many Pentax APS-C owners are looking for a fullframe, we will never know unless Pentax offers one. the only small clue that we have are the Pentax film slr users which are the dinosaurs of past era. so we dont even have the full count yet. we are missing the statistics of the present and future consumer market.

the analogy here is the selection. a customer is trapped on buying a vanilla icecream. if that is the only thing that is offered, it's either you buy it or go to another store. but think if they offer a chocolate icecream, it opens options and other possibilities.
07-21-2010, 04:20 PM   #225
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Asking for the magic number, I'd warrant that $1800 will be right about on. $1000 is ludicrous - the K-7 listed for more than that initially. Pentax will probably be competing largely with the Sony A850 - both smaller players in the market, both new to full frames, both using internal stabilization (I'm assuming). They usually match or beat their competitors in terms of price. So, I'd expect something that is pretty close price-wise to the A850 (although I certainly hope it beats it in other regards).

Having a couple of K20's and a K7, I would sell gear and dip into savings and do all manner of things to get my hands on a FF Pentax, assuming it did the things I want (Better sensitivity, DR, viewfinder, and AF). Also, Pentax's history of camera pricing means that an $1800 body will likely be available for half that after about a year. FF at a grand would be pretty exciting indeed.

Also, FF is compelling not just for the immediate advantages it confers, but because it promises to beat APS-C in performance over the long term. It is basically a physical inevitability: more photons = better photographs. Being able to use FF glass as intended and invest in it confidently for the future would be valuable to many.
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