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07-04-2010, 07:32 AM   #61
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QuoteOriginally posted by Pål Jensen Quote
Sure they do (eventually), but a 14-24/2.8 is not realistic....
Maybe not, but Canon has a 16-35 WA FF zoom.

There's no point in entering the upscale FF market with an $1,900 body and not having a WA lens to match. That's just making the investment but giving a portion to the competitor.

If Pentax goes FF, they need a fairly complete lens quiver of FF zooms. It's the primes that can come later.

07-04-2010, 07:45 AM   #62
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Their traditional strength, at least within the past 13 or so years I've been using Pentax, has been providing good cameras that may not be completely competitive with the bigger players. They offer unique bodies at good prices. Offering a unique FF(small, fully WR) would be consistent with that. They wouldn't quite be competing. They would be placating the Pentax users that want FF, and could provide an attractive FF that follows a different strategy than the other guys.

QuoteOriginally posted by TaoMaas Quote
I know it may not seem like it, but that's pretty much the way I feel, too. The only APS-C lens that I have is my 18-55 kit lens. Every other lens I own would work with FF. I'm just saying that it would go against Pentax's traditional strengths to try to compete in the upper end of small format cameras. It was mentioned that Pentax lost the pro market, but the truth is that Pentax never really had much of a foothold in the pro market, except for their medium format cameras, which did quite well.
07-04-2010, 09:10 AM   #63
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QuoteOriginally posted by Aristophanes Quote
Maybe not, but Canon has a 16-35 WA FF zoom.

There's no point in entering the upscale FF market with an $1,900 body and not having a WA lens to match. That's just making the investment but giving a portion to the competitor.

If Pentax goes FF, they need a fairly complete lens quiver of FF zooms. It's the primes that can come later.

I believe all they need initially in the wide-angle department is a 20mm prime lens or alternatively, an 18mm (+ a 24mm)a. This and a 24-70/4 "kit" lens is the most mandatory. Indeed very few are using lenses wider than 20mm on FF anyway; the Canon and Nikon pro wide zoom lenses are typically photo journalist tools something Pentax is not into. I fully expect Pentax to continue their prime emphasis if they release FF.
I don't think Pentax need to compete head on with Nikon and Canon when it comes to FF. They need to be different. A very small FF body will do just that.
07-04-2010, 10:20 AM   #64
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An excellent 21mm or 20mm f/2.8 135 lens would be excellent for landscape photographers. I'm sure a 16-35mm or 18-35mm f/4 would be welcomed too.

07-04-2010, 12:03 PM   #65
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QuoteOriginally posted by Votesh Quote
Their traditional strength, at least within the past 13 or so years I've been using Pentax, has been providing good cameras that may not be completely competitive with the bigger players. They offer unique bodies at good prices.
You're exactly right. This is why I think that the Kx will evolve, but we'll only see incremental improvements on the K7. A FF Pentax has no real competitive edge over comparable Canon/Nikon cameras. First off, there's no lens line to really support an upper-end FF DSLR. Sure, Pentax could revive it's 80-200 and 28-70 FF lenses, but even when those lenses were current, they didn't sell in large numbers so why would we think that it would be any different now?
07-04-2010, 01:08 PM   #66
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They wouldn't need a competitive edge over other FF cameras. They need something for Pentax users to move on to. People invested in K mount that want FF but don't want to leave the brand. If they offered a unique product, small and weathersealed for example, they would even be able to bring in new customers that don't want to carry around a brick to get the FF advantage.

A K-7 sized FF camera would be possible(the Leica M9 is FF but still tiny), and would be a revelation in the FF market. If they compete where they can, and already do with their APS-C cameras, they wouldn't need to go head-to-head with any other brand.
07-04-2010, 03:06 PM   #67
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QuoteOriginally posted by TaoMaas Quote
You're exactly right. This is why I think that the Kx will evolve, but we'll only see incremental improvements on the K7. A FF Pentax has no real competitive edge over comparable Canon/Nikon cameras. First off, there's no lens line to really support an upper-end FF DSLR. Sure, Pentax could revive it's 80-200 and 28-70 FF lenses, but even when those lenses were current, they didn't sell in large numbers so why would we think that it would be any different now?
I think you're missing the point.

Canikon and Sony will soon be able to offer FF at the same price point as the K-7.

What can Pentax do incrementally to match that and still keep gross revenues where they need to be?

Pentax would simply not be able to offer the K-7 or similar. It would have to abandon that price level and features and compete with APS-C in the sub-$1000 range. We'd all have to have a K-x with that feature set, and maybe an APS-C EVIL camera at a higher price point.

Those would be your options, save the 645D.
07-05-2010, 04:22 AM   #68
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QuoteOriginally posted by Aristophanes Quote
I think you're missing the point.

Canikon and Sony will soon be able to offer FF at the same price point as the K-7.

What can Pentax do incrementally to match that and still keep gross revenues where they need to be?

Pentax would simply not be able to offer the K-7 or similar. It would have to abandon that price level and features and compete with APS-C in the sub-$1000 range. We'd all have to have a K-x with that feature set, and maybe an APS-C EVIL camera at a higher price point.

Those would be your options, save the 645D.
What price level would Pentax be abandoning? All their cameras are already under $1000. A check of B&H showed the K7 selling for under $900. The lowest priced Canon FF was almost 3 times that amount. There are a lot of people who aren't interested in spending $2000+ on a still camera. Actually, the vast majority of buyers won't spend that much for a camera of ANY type.

07-05-2010, 05:37 AM   #69
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QuoteOriginally posted by TaoMaas Quote
There are a lot of people who aren't interested in spending $2000+ on a still camera. Actually, the vast majority of buyers won't spend that much for a camera of ANY type.
I've thought about it, but what's the point in spending so much for something so temporal? Technology depreciates too quickly to even spend a $1000 on a camera. And the full frame fad? Well that's just what it is. Marketing bandwagons roll into town hyping up fools who spend first and think later. I've lost count of all people who delved into FF only to cut their losses and return to APS-C.
07-05-2010, 06:34 AM   #70
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QuoteOriginally posted by TaoMaas Quote
What price level would Pentax be abandoning? All their cameras are already under $1000. A check of B&H showed the K7 selling for under $900. The lowest priced Canon FF was almost 3 times that amount. There are a lot of people who aren't interested in spending $2000+ on a still camera. Actually, the vast majority of buyers won't spend that much for a camera of ANY type.
Hold on. That's the price 1+ years later. The K-7's MSRP is substantially higher. Read my earlier post about model changes and capital flows in the industry now. No model sticks around for years, they need constant upgrades for sales performance. At some point, the $70 difference between an FF sensor and an APS-C sensor will become a $15 difference, and suddenly the Sony will debut a FF at $1,300. models will be updated by using better sensors, including bigger ones.

As noted earlier by falconeye, the new NEX camera lens mount from Sony can accommodate FF. You can see the industry shifting towards larger sensors. Get ready to change your glass.

If the K-7 price point stays APS-C, it will not compete. Period. FF will come down in price to eviscerate the high-end APS-C segment. 2010? 2011? 2012? Hard to say, but one of the big manufacturers will floor the market soon.
07-05-2010, 07:56 AM   #71
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It doesn't really matter what the vast majority would pay, if there is money to be made, and there is. Also, FF will be available for significantly less than $2000 soon.

Another thing to remember is that you can buy a used Canon 5D regularly for about $1200. So, now someone at the top end of the Pentax camera range could buy a used 5D in excellent condition for the same amount as Pentax flagship cameras are released for if they prefer a FF body. When the 5D Mark II and D700 are discontinued their prices used will drop too.

QuoteOriginally posted by TaoMaas Quote
What price level would Pentax be abandoning? All their cameras are already under $1000. A check of B&H showed the K7 selling for under $900. The lowest priced Canon FF was almost 3 times that amount. There are a lot of people who aren't interested in spending $2000+ on a still camera. Actually, the vast majority of buyers won't spend that much for a camera of ANY type.

Last edited by Votesh; 07-05-2010 at 08:34 AM.
07-05-2010, 08:33 AM   #72
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Technology doesn't depreciate.

Full frame is hardly a fad. There are more FF models now than ever, and they are selling better than ever. Soon they will replace the higher end APS-C cameras. There are definite advantages to FF, and prices will continue to come down.

QuoteOriginally posted by JHD Quote
I've thought about it, but what's the point in spending so much for something so temporal? Technology depreciates too quickly to even spend a $1000 on a camera. And the full frame fad? Well that's just what it is. Marketing bandwagons roll into town hyping up fools who spend first and think later. I've lost count of all people who delved into FF only to cut their losses and return to APS-C.
07-05-2010, 08:46 AM   #73
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QuoteOriginally posted by Votesh Quote
When the 5D Mark II and D700 are discontinued their prices used will drop too.
One rumour flying around Nikon-land is that the D700 will not be replaced but will slide lower in the product line at a lower price (having just raised prices due to FOREX) and a very similar FF model with more MP's will slot in just above.

This could well push the D700 below $2,000. Close to $1,500 and suddenly any K-7 successor using APS-C cannot hold the current MSRP at launch. That's all the skimming margins on the product making it non-viable. I suspect we will not see or hear about a Pentax FF at Photokina, but shortly thereafter. They need to see what Canikon and Sony do.

The catch here is that Canikon have an almost collusion incentive to keep FF high-margin only, so as not to rob their flagship sales. So keep an eye on Sony who have little to lose by going a commodity route with FF. The same may also be said of Olympus who could realistically dump their 4/3 line for FF. They have lens quiver issues as does Pentax, but Zuiko is top-notch glass and has a tight user following. If Oly goes FF and M4/3, they'd bring a lot of users.
07-05-2010, 09:18 AM   #74
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Personally I reckon a FF K7 sized body with in body SR, video @ 1080p & weather sealing plus the ability to have focussing, flash accuracy & zero noise ala D700 style and of course a few NEW FF (Pentax SMC) lenses to match would win me over in a heartbeat.

I would easily be willing to pay $ 3500 for such a dslr - for me, even a 24-70 F4 and 70-200 F4 lenses would suffice as they would have a smaller form factor than the 2.8's.

If I was head of R&D at Pentax - I would be stupid, even negligent not to be thinking of such.

Dylan
07-05-2010, 12:54 PM   #75
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I think one question here may be how much 'Full Frame' and 'Really Expensive Camera' are still the same thing when Pentax comes out with one.

The cost of FF is coming down: I think a real question is where it may meet improvements Pentax can make in AF, high ISO, flash system, and other 'pro-level' features. I wouldn't want to spend thousands on a camera that's subpar on these levels just to have FF, but if FF sensors get affordable enough, then there's no reason a K-7 equivalent-for-tech in FF wouldn't be useful to many.

If I were to want a pro-level Pentax body, then probably it'd need to be caught up in those aforementioned regards: if it's just for the sake of it being full-frame, they might even beat Sony's pricing there, or be as close.
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