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07-07-2010, 05:22 PM   #121
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QuoteOriginally posted by nosnoop Quote
Silly logic? Have you actually used APS-C lenses with FF cameras?
With D700, you are only limited to 5M pixels when using a DX lens. And "boxed" viewfinder image area of the same DX lens on D700 is much smaller than that with D300s - it is not pleasant to use at all.
And 5D II won't even take EF-S lenses!
First, the D700 is a bit of an exception with its relatively low MP's. Most FF cameras will have MP's to spare.

Second, the boxed VF image crop goes away with EVF's that could send a corrected image seamlessly. So the way to leverage the APS-C legacy glass is for it to become (ta-da) EVIL glass.

The DA 35 Macro on a Pentax FF EVIL? Wow. Now look at the WA options.


Last edited by Aristophanes; 07-07-2010 at 07:20 PM.
07-07-2010, 07:29 PM   #122
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As I said, Canon isn't a stickler for compatibility. Pentax is, and surely would be with a FF camera as well.
On Nikon, APS-C lenses do indeed work just fine. The boxed view may be "unpleasant" to you, but that doesn't change the fact that they are perfectly usable. When pixel densities in FF equal APS-C sensor densities, the cropped images would have the exact same resolution.
So yes, silly logic.

QuoteOriginally posted by nosnoop Quote
Silly logic? Have you actually used APS-C lenses with FF cameras?
With D700, you are only limited to 5M pixels when using a DX lens. And "boxed" viewfinder image area of the same DX lens on D700 is much smaller than that with D300s - it is not pleasant to use at all.
And 5D II won't even take EF-S lenses!
07-07-2010, 07:38 PM   #123
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Pretty much my view on things. Pentax could probably stick it out in the APS-C market for some years to come, but if they don't expand into FF they will be forced out of the less-than-MF DSLR game.

I just don't understand the complete opposition that some people have to the idea of Pentax intelligently entering the FF market. The intelligently part is crucial, but Pentax/Hoya have been making intelligent decisions lately.

QuoteOriginally posted by Aristophanes Quote
There would likely be a strong perception amongst APS-C lens buyers that they invested in an inferior system. That would strain brand loyalty and encourage switching. That's why I have come around to falconeye's thinking that if Pentax doesn't at least announce FF very soon, a whole lot of loyal, high-end buyers, will put their $$$ to other brands as a means of future proofing their investments.

The kicker is that Canon, Nikon, and Sony want high-margin products like the D3. They need a technical item to hang their hat on to differentiate price points, and they seem to have coalesced around FF with APS-H thrown into the mix. There is a sort of collusion or standoff because the first one to move FF towards commodity pricing and ubiquity will hurt everyone's profits, not to mention the loyalty issue spoken to above.

Back in the 1980's there were vicious price wars as 35mm cameras became a virtual commodity market. Canon was literally forced to diversify from the camera and optics markets to right its balance sheet. It actually became an OEM to other companies (like Apple printers) to try and gain revenue streams. Minolta and Konica and other smaller players were eventually marginalized well before digital came out; they had no capital left from the commodity price wars.

The first big name to go FF in the sub-US$1,500 price point sets off a tsunami. The K-7 at APS-C will be dropped entirely from retailers if that happens and Pentax does not have an FF replacement including a lens quiver. That's a big problem.

When? Not sure. There's consensus to milk APS-C until one player requires market share more than margins.
07-07-2010, 10:25 PM   #124
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QuoteOriginally posted by Aristophanes Quote
How? By making more photons?


The time will come, sooner rather than later, when you have a 100MP sensor with focus information for each pixel, and minimum glass in front.

The focal range will be digital, and the required DOF will be accurately simulated by an in-camera processor.

07-07-2010, 11:30 PM   #125
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QuoteOriginally posted by Votesh Quote
On Nikon, APS-C lenses do indeed work just fine. The boxed view may be "unpleasant" to you, but that doesn't change the fact that they are perfectly usable....
So yes, silly logic.
It maybe "fine" for you, but it is not fine at all for me and other users.
It maybe "usable" for you, but I won't pay extra dollar for a FF camera for a "usable" solution. Just like a tiny optical viewfinder may be "usable" for some users, but it would not be acceptable to me.
To you it's "silly", to me, no, it's a deal breaker.

QuoteOriginally posted by Votesh Quote
I just don't understand the complete opposition that some people have to the idea of Pentax intelligently entering the FF market. The intelligently part is crucial, but Pentax/Hoya have been making intelligent decisions lately.
I personally do not oppose it. But I do not buy into the dire do-or-die, or now-or-never prediction on Pentax entering FF market segment. Nor do I believe having a foothold in FF market is that important at all. Sure, if Hoya has the spare money and resources, by all means. But I don't see any sound business reason to do so now or the foreseeable future. And I view Pentax/Hoya not entering the FF market and not making the Sony mistake as an intelligent decision!
07-08-2010, 12:07 AM   #126
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In a few years FF cameras will be selling for what APS-C cameras sell for now.

I imagine your opinion of, and aversion to, the option of using APS-C lenses on FF isn't shared by most Pentax DSLR users, especially those with investments in high quality FF glass that would prefer to be able to use those lenses on the format they were intended for. Not only that, but there is likely a solution that could be implemented for people with an aversion similar to yours(simply a larger VF maybe, although that would prove to be quite expensive). You are operating under the assumption that product development is stagnant, but only that it is stagnant in the segment you are arguing against Pentax producing.

I guess we will see where Pentax is headed in the near future by the time Photokina rolls around. I doubt they would be releasing, and rereleasing, FF compatible lenses if they were committed to APS-C. It is counterintuitive to one of the stated purposes of committing to the format in the first place(smaller lenses).

I wouldn't be surprised if we see FF compatible lenses announced/released in September, if nothing else. To me that would further signify that they have definite intentions of releasing FF in the near future.

I trust that falconeye knows what he's talking about, and he seems to think something big is coming from Pentax in the next few months.

Also, Sony didn't enter the FF market intelligently. They attempted to gain market share by selling their bodies at a loss, and make up the difference once they had that market share. They also haven't had a solid, directed approach at any area of the higher than point and shoot camera markets for a few years. They have been all over the place and quite inconsistent. Their entry into the EVIL market seems like it might be continuing that trend.

QuoteOriginally posted by nosnoop Quote
It maybe "fine" for you, but it is not fine at all for me and other users.
It maybe "usable" for you, but I won't pay extra dollar for a FF camera for a "usable" solution. Just like a tiny optical viewfinder may be "usable" for some users, but it would not be acceptable to me.
To you it's "silly", to me, no, it's a deal breaker.



I personally do not oppose it. But I do not buy into the dire do-or-die, or now-or-never prediction on Pentax entering FF market segment. Nor do I believe having a foothold in FF market is that important at all. Sure, if Hoya has the spare money and resources, by all means. But I don't see any sound business reason to do so now or the foreseeable future. And I view Pentax/Hoya not entering the FF market and not making the Sony mistake as an intelligent decision!

Last edited by Votesh; 07-08-2010 at 12:17 AM.
07-08-2010, 12:24 AM   #127
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I prefer to keep as much of the image processing as possible out of the hands of the camera. I especially wouldn't want to leave nearly every aspect of image capture up to a machine.
Also, how will 100MP be fit on a sensor smaller that FF while maintaining acceptable IQ. There are limits to what can be done.

QuoteOriginally posted by Unsinkable II Quote


The time will come, sooner rather than later, when you have a 100MP sensor with focus information for each pixel, and minimum glass in front.

The focal range will be digital, and the required DOF will be accurately simulated by an in-camera processor.
07-08-2010, 12:29 AM   #128
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QuoteOriginally posted by Votesh Quote
In a few years FF cameras will be selling for what APS-C cameras sell for now.
And APS-C will be selling for as much as a P&S, and a P&S will be selling for as much as a disposable camera.... it's all relative. FF will drop just as fast as anything else

07-08-2010, 12:54 AM   #129
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QuoteOriginally posted by Votesh Quote
I

Also, Sony didn't enter the FF market intelligently. They attempted to gain market share by selling their bodies at a loss, and make up the difference once they had that market share. They also haven't had a solid, directed approach at any area of the higher than point and shoot camera markets for a few years. They have been all over the place and quite inconsistent. Their entry into the EVIL market seems like it might be continuing that trend.
I am not sure how someone could make such definite statements rendering a bunch of highly successful guys (those who are running sony) as fools. As you say their unintelligent decisions have put the company to the brink of bankruptcy. Or have they?

Lets see, they made a very good full frame product in A900/A850 which did sell well. (Or it is safe to say that there were buyers for it). Putting them with other two companies that offer full frame.

And they have also put EVIL type cameras into market, which despite what one says have pretty good image quality.

Off course the only company that now offer point&shoots, pro level video equpiments, full frame cameras, APC dslrs and also has EVIL type cameras. (Add to that they have partnered Zeiss for autofocus lenses). All this in short 5 years of taking over from minolta. Man this gotta be parade of unintelligent decisions. This company is surely heading for bankruptcy. Noone can save it.
07-08-2010, 02:52 AM   #130
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Pentax should stop using Sony sensors

Pentax should stop using Sony sensors.

Its silly the K-x has a better sensor than the K-7 has

Sony has two full frame dslrs, one with inbody image stabilization

Sony would sell more dslrs if they routinely cut their dslr prices by half, like Pentax does



QuoteOriginally posted by zxaar Quote
I am not sure how someone could make such definite statements rendering a bunch of highly successful guys (those who are running sony) as fools. As you say their unintelligent decisions have put the company to the brink of bankruptcy. Or have they?

Lets see, they made a very good full frame product in A900/A850 which did sell well. (Or it is safe to say that there were buyers for it). Putting them with other two companies that offer full frame.

And they have also put EVIL type cameras into market, which despite what one says have pretty good image quality.

Off course the only company that now offer point&shoots, pro level video equpiments, full frame cameras, APC dslrs and also has EVIL type cameras. (Add to that they have partnered Zeiss for autofocus lenses). All this in short 5 years of taking over from minolta. Man this gotta be parade of unintelligent decisions. This company is surely heading for bankruptcy. Noone can save it.
07-08-2010, 03:36 AM   #131
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QuoteOriginally posted by Unsinkable II Quote
LOL!

But what about digital radio being more compressed than FM? LPs being truer than CDs etc.
This is why I said analog film SLRs may survive (at least on ebay) where APSC digital SLR doesn't.

BTW, digital radio is bad with a low bitrate and CDs are bad because of their compressed volume dynamic range (quiet to loud parts volume ratio). I.e., the technical progress was abused to destroy content quality. You may say the same for digital still photography where 99.99% of photos lack any artistic quality, compared to only 99% with analog film

Last edited by falconeye; 07-08-2010 at 03:51 AM.
07-08-2010, 04:11 AM   #132
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QuoteOriginally posted by nosnoop Quote
Sorry, but I disagree with you.
Unlike some of the examples you have given where standardization is required to ensure interoperability, sensor sizes do NOT need to be standardized. And for the majority of the consumer outside these forums, they do NOT care about sensor sizes!
Its fair enough to disagree with my prediction. It may be wrong after all

However, sensor size is standardized with each mount. I agree, you can standardize a separate sensor size for every mount. Except that then, third party lenses won't exist.

And there is only one SLR mount standardized for less than FF, which is FT. And FT-SLRs are dead already! All other SLR mounts are standardized for FF which is the reason why APSC will die out quicker than you can blink. Again, I can be wrong. But I fear I'm not.

QuoteOriginally posted by Votesh Quote
I trust that falconeye knows what he's talking about, and he seems to think something big is coming from Pentax in the next few months.
I'm not under NDA and therefore, Pentax is careful with what they let me know... So, I know something significant is coming but if it is "big" ... we'll see.

QuoteOriginally posted by Aristophanes Quote
That's why I have come around to falconeye's thinking that if Pentax doesn't at least announce FF very soon, a whole lot of loyal, high-end buyers, will put their $$$ to other brands as a means of future proofing their investments.
[...]
The first big name to go FF in the sub-US$1,500 price point sets off a tsunami.
I undersign your post and love your tsunami analogy a lot. Here near the Alps, the term landslide is popular too

Of course, you need a certain control over the sensor manufacturing process to actually make this happen. Interesting times ahead of us
07-08-2010, 07:18 AM   #133
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QuoteOriginally posted by falcon Quote
All other SLR mounts are standardized for FF which is the reason why APSC will die out quicker than you can blink. Again, I can be wrong. But I fear I'm not.

You're a blind man who has hold of an elephant's tail and thinks it's a rope. When most camera manufacturers decided to keep their existing lens mount upon entering the digital age, it wasn't because they had FF sensors in mind...they were trying to hold onto their existing customers! You're reading WAY too much in this lens mount deal.
07-08-2010, 07:35 AM   #134
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QuoteOriginally posted by nosnoop Quote
I personally do not oppose it. But I do not buy into the dire do-or-die, or now-or-never prediction on Pentax entering FF market segment. Nor do I believe having a foothold in FF market is that important at all. Sure, if Hoya has the spare money and resources, by all means. But I don't see any sound business reason to do so now or the foreseeable future.
Exactly! If Pentax decides to scrap all their APS-C cameras by this afternoon and go nothing but FF...I'm ready. And I've been ready for a long, long time, btw. Heck, I've even got a workable solution if they decide to drop everything except the 645D . lol But...that's not what I expect them to do. I'm not "opposed" to FF...I'm just not convinced that every DSLR user is going to buy into it. Over the years, I've seen the Pentax users in my camera club dwindle pretty steadily. Now, there's only 3 of us...my wife, me, and one other guy. Of the 3, two are still shooting *istD's because they like the size, they work just fine for their purposes, and they REALLY dislike the bigger DSLRs. There used to be one other Pentax shooter, but he switched to Nikon because he couldn't find the exotic lenses in Pentax mount. I know there are Pentax users who are buying the high end lenses and gear who are considering switching to another brand in order to get FF capabilities...but I gotta tell ya...in my 35 years as an extremely devoted Pentax user, I've known a huge number of Pentax users. But if I were to count the number of them who even owned so much as an LX, not to mention the really high end stuff, I could count them on one hand and have 3 fingers left over. High end is not now, nor has it ever been, Pentax's market.
07-08-2010, 08:04 AM   #135
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QuoteOriginally posted by TaoMaas Quote
When most camera manufacturers decided to keep their existing lens mount upon entering the digital age, it wasn't because they had FF sensors in mind...they were trying to hold onto their existing customers! You're reading WAY too much in this lens mount deal.
Well, we all have bad memories. 2003 (only 7 years ago!!) Olympus and Pentax released their first dSLR and struggled hard to announce it for less than $2000. Pentax tried a FF camera first and failed (too expensive and still not good enough). But only Olympus decided digital doesn't require an FF sensor and released the half size FT standard. Everybody else, however, cropped the 35mm format and released dSLR with a 35mm mount and a smaller sensor. As the FT standard shows, you could have always changed the mount and offered adapters if you didn't intend to eventually grow the sensor.

And of course was it meant to be a temporary measure until sensor prices would have come down enough. What else do you think? And it was a good measure as only 7 years later, the half size FT mount is dead.

BTW, the same has happened again with the 645D: Nobody thinks that the 645D series won't eventually feature an uncropped sensor.


The only thing unpredicted however was that dSLRs would first come down in price to almost P&S level ($400) before sensors would uncrop. But that's a done thing and now sensors will uncrop.


But all of this is the past. I don't care actually.

What matters is that the arguments which once were in favour of APS-C are timing out. That's all.
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