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07-20-2010, 05:11 AM   #91
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rico Quote
I think the K-7 is a total success including higher ISO performance with some minor faults. The K-7 did away with the blue chroma noise in high ISO images produced by the K20D. The K-7 high ISO performance has a much more pleasing film grain look than the K20D. In no way do I see the K-7 high ISO performance as a step back from the K20D. It is not leaps and bounds better but it is a clear improvement over the k20D.
Actually it is quite strange tbh, but when the K-7 came out, I also felt this way about nominal IQ and pixel definition. But a closer examination showed that much of the K-7's output was due in part to it's processing settings. And that it was quite possible to match and even exceed its output by adjusting curve and sharpening settings in the K20D.

However, it wasn't until GordonB came out with the K20D Tinge Removal Utility(which virtually eliminated magenta tinging) That the K20D took a major leap in NR performance over it's successor. And once we coupled this with ACR'd latest demosaic engine, it would become the best high ISO RAW performer next to the K-x.

So what does this all mean?

Well... since the K20D initially held a marginal advantage over the K-7 with regards to noise performance. We now have a series of improvements that would give it the ability to produce uncompromized(black & reductions, resizing, etc). ISO6400 images. In contrast to the K-7 which usually begins to demonstrate(what we could call) difficult noise artifacts(ultra low frequency noise ) as early as ISO2400.

For what it's worth... I find DPreview's K20D/ K-7noise tests a little misleading for the following reasons:

1. The K-7 has a superior JPG and NR engine over the K20D.
2. The noise image samples are too small too assess artifacts such as low frequency noise.
3. The graphs do no reflect real world contrasts of how a 10% noise curve impacts output.

Despite all this, there are enough high ISO samples here to see first hand where each unit stands with regards to sensitivities and image quality.

Having said all that! - Noise performance is but a small part of the picture. The truth is, it's not as empirical as many would think! For example; the K-7 may very well be(what we could call) the single largest performance and feature upgrade ever made in Pentax history! And personally, I just can't wait to see what they will bring this year knowing whats available and what can be done. I think we may very well be looking at the next K20D!

07-20-2010, 05:42 AM   #92
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QuoteOriginally posted by loveisageless Quote
I'm an amatuer photographer, whose first non-range finder camera was a Pentax MX. I resisted digital but took the plunge with the K10D. I don't think I've ever used a camera less than I did the K10D. The menus for everything made my eyes glaze over. It took the joy out of taking pictures for me. When I heard that on the K7 many of the controls like white balance and ISO were actual buttons instead of another $%& menu to access, I hoped that the other aspects of the K7 would be improvements as well. I was not disappointed. Its success is relative to the use one puts it to. For me the K7 continued the design feature of the top LCD found on the K10D. I've handled friends' Kxs and I feel like I am flying blind.
Actually, the K-x has a dedicated ISO button which is easier to use than the Fn button on the K10/20 when those bodies are in default mode. The control feature that I miss most with one dial is the inability to set the ISO to an e-dial. With the two dial cameras set to AV, and one of the dials set to ISO, you have complete control over the exposure and sensitivity without your eye leaving the finder.

Going in and out of buildings while traveling with the K-x, I missed a few shots taking an outdoor scene with the camera left at ISO 3200.
07-20-2010, 05:49 AM   #93
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QuoteOriginally posted by GeneV Quote
Actually, the K-x has a dedicated ISO button which is easier to use than the Fn button on the K10/20 when those bodies are in default mode.
Isn't the [ok] + [front dial] the default surface controller ISO on the K10/K20?
07-20-2010, 07:24 AM   #94
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QuoteOriginally posted by JohnBee Quote
Isn't the [ok] + [front dial] the default surface controller ISO on the K10/K20?
Yep; not many users know that.

07-20-2010, 08:03 AM   #95
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You know, in the olden days, I don't remember getting excited every year for a new model. In fact, when my dad bought his ME super he used it for close to 10 years and gave it to me. He said he never felt the need to buy a new model because the improvement that he would see on pictures themselves were minimum.

These days, the product cycle is about 18 months, and it seems like we are suckered into buying a new model every time it comes out. The fear of not having the newest really got us by the balls.

I somehow don't feel that with K-7. I just don't have the urge to buy another APS-C camera. For that matter, I have lost the lust for FF too. Sure, I would love to be able to use my FA 31 and Zeiss ZK on FF and see what they look like, but not enough to shell out a couple of grand. All this because I am pretty satisfied with K-7.


I tell you though that the only short coming of that camera, and it really isn't a short coming of K-7 per se, but when I print large, and even at A3 I feel like I want more resolution. Then I see FF prints at that size and they don't excite me. BUT, 645D prints at A3 and larger really excite me.

I am really thinking that this is as good as APS-C gets in terms of picture quality when printed. I just don't see the real need to keep beating on this. For the same reasons, FF is a moot point for me unless they are less than $1,000.

So, when I started using k-7 and realized its capability, I was certain that the next body will be FF . As a APS-C camera, K-7 seems very complete to me.
07-20-2010, 09:37 AM   #96
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QuoteOriginally posted by Asahiflex Quote
Yep; not many users know that.
It can be done with the Fn key, or the OK+ key. I have used the latter method in the hyperprogram mode, but I don't find it as convenient. I am probably just getting a bit old and befuddled, but I find using the OK button for so many things just confusing, especially when I have to use it often for stop down metering. I also find it confusing to have the front dial change function in mid shoot, but that's just me.

I use AV most of the time, and I can simply set the front dial to ISO in AV and get the most use out of both dials.
07-20-2010, 09:41 AM   #97
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QuoteOriginally posted by JohnBee Quote
Isn't the [ok] + [front dial] the default surface controller ISO on the K10/K20?
Yes it is and I use that constantly. Easy to do without taking your eye off the VF and much more comfortable IMO than the K-7 which I find a bit small in my hands. Partly because I'm a left eye shooter.
07-20-2010, 09:56 AM   #98
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QuoteOriginally posted by Nubi Quote
You know, in the olden days, I don't remember getting excited every year for a new model. In fact, when my dad bought his ME super he used it for close to 10 years and gave it to me. He said he never felt the need to buy a new model because the improvement that he would see on pictures themselves were minimum.

These days, the product cycle is about 18 months, and it seems like we are suckered into buying a new model every time it comes out. The fear of not having the newest really got us by the balls.

I somehow don't feel that with K-7. I just don't have the urge to buy another APS-C camera. For that matter, I have lost the lust for FF too. Sure, I would love to be able to use my FA 31 and Zeiss ZK on FF and see what they look like, but not enough to shell out a couple of grand. All this because I am pretty satisfied with K-7.


I tell you though that the only short coming of that camera, and it really isn't a short coming of K-7 per se, but when I print large, and even at A3 I feel like I want more resolution. Then I see FF prints at that size and they don't excite me. BUT, 645D prints at A3 and larger really excite me.

I am really thinking that this is as good as APS-C gets in terms of picture quality when printed. I just don't see the real need to keep beating on this. For the same reasons, FF is a moot point for me unless they are less than $1,000.

So, when I started using k-7 and realized its capability, I was certain that the next body will be FF . As a APS-C camera, K-7 seems very complete to me.
While I mostly agree with Peter, Will and others... about the "not" enough improvement, I am in complete agreement with you coming from the K10D which in itself is a great camera. Everything I wish the K10D could improve is already in the K-7. With my K-7 and 31mm, I don't feel anything else than the Canikon users with 5D and D700 at all. Great question and of course great answers from so many.

07-20-2010, 12:52 PM   #99
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QuoteOriginally posted by Nubi Quote
You know, in the olden days, I don't remember getting excited every year for a new model. In fact, when my dad bought his ME super he used it for close to 10 years and gave it to me. He said he never felt the need to buy a new model because the improvement that he would see on pictures themselves were minimum.

These days, the product cycle is about 18 months, and it seems like we are suckered into buying a new model every time it comes out. The fear of not having the newest really got us by the balls.

I somehow don't feel that with K-7. I just don't have the urge to buy another APS-C camera. For that matter, I have lost the lust for FF too. Sure, I would love to be able to use my FA 31 and Zeiss ZK on FF and see what they look like, but not enough to shell out a couple of grand. All this because I am pretty satisfied with K-7.


I tell you though that the only short coming of that camera, and it really isn't a short coming of K-7 per se, but when I print large, and even at A3 I feel like I want more resolution. Then I see FF prints at that size and they don't excite me. BUT, 645D prints at A3 and larger really excite me.

I am really thinking that this is as good as APS-C gets in terms of picture quality when printed. I just don't see the real need to keep beating on this. For the same reasons, FF is a moot point for me unless they are less than $1,000.

So, when I started using k-7 and realized its capability, I was certain that the next body will be FF . As a APS-C camera, K-7 seems very complete to me.
I also feel no desire to upgrade should another APS-C camera come out. I feel the K-7 is a great machine for the price bracket and unless full-frame comes down under $1500, I don't see an upgrade path in the near future.
07-20-2010, 03:09 PM   #100
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QuoteOriginally posted by Peter Zack Quote
Yes it is and I use that constantly. Easy to do without taking your eye off the VF and much more comfortable IMO than the K-7 which I find a bit small in my hands. Partly because I'm a left eye shooter.
The fact that the operation can be customized so many ways is one of the big advantages of the two e-dial bodies.
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