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08-05-2010, 10:01 AM   #1
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Why Hoping for Pentax to Develop a FF DSLR?

Why are many people hoping for a FF DSLR? From my understanding, only the FA and D FA lenses have a large enough image circle for FF. I would be very surprised if Pentax comes out with a FF camera anytime soon.

I actually agree with many aspects of this article:
FullFrame WARS!
I have the feeling that FF DSLR is more marketing hype than that it gains much photographic/technical benefit.

Things I would like to see Pentax focus on are SDM issues, low light AF, and high ISO noise. All can be done with a APS-C sized sensor.

Eric

08-05-2010, 10:07 AM   #2
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Noise control would definitely be better on a full-frame, but anyway, do keep in mind that Pentax's backwards-compatibility would probably play a huge role. All Pentax would need to do is re-release the FA or F series, or simply start producing the lenses again.

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08-05-2010, 10:15 AM   #3
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QuoteOriginally posted by Eric Seavey Quote
Why are many people hoping for a FF DSLR? From my understanding, only the FA and D FA lenses have a large enough image circle for FF. I would be very surprised if Pentax comes out with a FF camera anytime soon.

I actually agree with many aspects of this article:
FullFrame WARS!
I have the feeling that FF DSLR is more marketing hype than that it gains much photographic/technical benefit.

Things I would like to see Pentax focus on are SDM issues, low light AF, and high ISO noise. All can be done with a APS-C sized sensor.

Eric
The thread has been done to death, really :-)

There are other-brand lens that would work on Pentax FF, as well.
08-05-2010, 10:17 AM   #4
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-Bigger Viewfinder
-Higher resolution
-Better nois control
-Higher DR
-FOV like with film srlīs
-smaller DOF
-nostalgia?

08-05-2010, 10:18 AM   #5
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I looked on the "net and in 2009 there were 9.9 million dslrs sold (total all makers)

Does any one know what percentage were full frame, and what volume it takes to make a profit based upon current pricing?

I would be willing to bet that there simply isn't room for another full frame unless you can take one of the two biggies, (nikon or canon) out of the picture totally or the price drops down to the entyry level and you have no other option at that point.

I just can't see the point for pentax to go after that market, although they might produce a fine camera, they are too small to withstand a financial disaster.

As for FF lenses, do the factories and tooling still exist. Remember most F and FA lenses were made in japan, not in tiawan or elsewhere. If the factories and tooling don't exist, they can't just turn production back on.,

Additionally, while some purists might want a 20 year old lens design, there are a lot of new optical materials that could offer significant improvements in performance weight and cost. Why not take advatage of these and start over.
08-05-2010, 10:31 AM   #6
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As someone who owns a FF dSLR and the FA Ltd trio, I'd love to see Pentax make one.

I can see why it wouldn't be a priority for the majority of Pentax users, though.
08-05-2010, 10:41 AM   #7
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I'm anxiously awaiting the news on the newest Pentax body. I thought I was ready to buy the K7 to upgrade my K10, but decided to wait until the newest body is released. I know very little about full frame cameras, but I was under the impression that none of the lenses I use on my K10 would work on a full frame? I have the Pentax SMCP-FA 50mm f/1.4 Lens along w/ a sigma which I assume will NOT work on FF, but the 50 MM will? (I have other lenses, but these are the two I use the most)
08-05-2010, 10:45 AM   #8
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Just as the above post mentions, people are waiting to see what new bodies Pentax comes up with. If we aren't excited for that, we might as well suggest Pentax stop producing cameras and just work on lenses, because we could all be happy with what we have out now.

We all want improvements, and FF is an improvement I'd like to see from Pentax.

On a side note, 35mm film cameras are full frame. If you have lenses compatible with film cameras, they'll work on a digital FF.

08-05-2010, 10:50 AM   #9
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Yes, SpecialK,
There have been numurous threads on this issue, and I am sorry for bringing this up again. Ironically, two of my lenses are FF lenses, that could perhaps been smaller if they were were designed for APS-C sensors.
Noise: the "almost twice the price Canon and Nikon" cameras are able to reduce high ISO noise
Canon 7D noise comparison versus Nikon D300s and Pentax K7 - 1001 Noisy Cameras
Also the same 2 Canon and Nikon cameras seem to outperform the K-7 in many ways (again at twice the today's price).
Google Translate

Eigelb, All the items (except nostalgia) that you mentioned can dealt with at a technical level, including DOF.

I just still do not see the benefits outweighing....
08-05-2010, 12:08 PM   #10
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We can agree on what would benefit users: speed, noise, FoV/AoV, resolution, etc.

But what would benefit Hoya/Pentax?

Introducing a FF body would be a signal that PenHoya intends to compete head-on with Canon and Nikon for the pros using such gear. To do so would require building an elaborate international service infrastructure, as well as launching an extensive / expensive marketing campaign. Is that a smart move for PenHoya?

PenHoya has already introduced a pro-level body. It's called the 645D, and it marks a head-on fight with Mamiya, Hassy, Leica etc for the pros using THAT gear. It's sold in Japan, where the service network is being built. Would a new FF cut into the MF efforts?

I would really really like to see a reasonably-prices K9-FF or whatever. But I don't expect it anytime soon. Bother.
08-05-2010, 12:43 PM   #11
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The future will be refining and improving on APS-C performance and putting these new sensors in their bodies.
There will be people that will say that we've reached the limit of APS-C. Megapixel-wise that may or may not be true but the quantum leap may be better noise control and how the sensor reacts to a wider DR. It'll be interesting.
08-05-2010, 12:49 PM   #12
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QuoteOriginally posted by BethC Quote
I'm anxiously awaiting the news on the newest Pentax body. I thought I was ready to buy the K7 to upgrade my K10, but decided to wait until the newest body is released. I know very little about full frame cameras, but I was under the impression that none of the lenses I use on my K10 would work on a full frame? I have the Pentax SMCP-FA 50mm f/1.4 Lens along w/ a sigma which I assume will NOT work on FF, but the 50 MM will? (I have other lenses, but these are the two I use the most)
Your FA50 mm f/1.4 would work on a full frame camera. I would argue it would probably be even harder to get good results at f/1.4 than it is already, though

Lenses in Pentax's DA line, including your two zooms, are designed for APS-C crop sensors and therefore would not work well on a full frame camera.
08-05-2010, 12:58 PM   #13
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Though some DA lenses are actually just fine on FF (most notably the DA40 Lim and the DA* 200/300s). This isn't a situation limited to Pentax, either. I know on the Nikon side their 35/1.8 DX prime works well in most cases on FX.
08-05-2010, 01:41 PM   #14
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QuoteOriginally posted by Eric Seavey Quote
Why are many people hoping for a FF DSLR? From my understanding, only the FA and D FA lenses have a large enough image circle for FF. I would be very surprised if Pentax comes out with a FF camera anytime soon.

I actually agree with many aspects of this article:
FullFrame WARS!
I have the feeling that FF DSLR is more marketing hype than that it gains much photographic/technical benefit.

Things I would like to see Pentax focus on are SDM issues, low light AF, and high ISO noise. All can be done with a APS-C sized sensor.

Eric
Because the more competition Canon/Nikon/Sony have the better off everyone is. Competition benefits the consumer. The benefits of a FF sensor are very real. My 5 year old Canon 5D is still better than any APS-C on the market when it comes to low-light, color depth, & DR. APS-C is just now starting to get to where FF was 5 years ago.

Personally I think Pentax needs to dump the 3:2 format sensor and go with t 5:4, or match the ratio on the 645D (4:3).
08-05-2010, 04:34 PM   #15
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QuoteOriginally posted by eigelb Quote
..
-Higher DR
..
While I don't want to buy into the FF wars, this is actually a mis-conception. Most FF camera's in fact don't have a superior dynamic range to most APS-C cameras.

For example the K-x (just as an example) has a dynamic range of 12.5 EV, but on FF the Nikon D700 has a DR of 12.2 EV and the Canon 5D2 has a DR of 11.9EV, according to DXO. So measured at for example 200 ISO, the K-x's DR exceeds that of the D700 and 5D2. Ditto perhaps for 800 ISO.

What FF boxes - eg like the D700 or 5D2 - do have, however, is a superior ability to hold onto a usable range of DR as you move up the ISO scale. So while they may not have a higher DR at base ISO, they can hold onto their DR better.

As you go past 800 ISO (811 to be exact, according to DXO), the K-x's ability to hold onto a decent level of DR (9 EV is what DXO uses to define decent DR) starts to decline. However the FF 5D2 it can still hold onto 9EV of DR up until 1815 ISO, and then the decline sets in. The D700 can hold onto 9EV up until about 2300 ISO, then it starts to lose DR.

So this can give the impression that FF gives you a higher dynamic range than APS-C or other sensor sizes, but that is not the case. FF may expand the ISO range at which you have access to your full DR, but it doesn't expand your DR per se. Landscape shooters may want to take note of this.

Last edited by rawr; 08-05-2010 at 04:45 PM. Reason: Corrected 5D2 numbers
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