Are we really THAT rare?

**gofour3** · 05-05-2021, 02:44 PM

I was in Victoria BC last month shooting film with my Z1-p and ran into a fellow Pentax DSLR shooter.

Does not happen every day, but I do run into Pentax shooters at least once every trip.

Phil.

**mattt** · 05-05-2021, 06:17 PM

Originally posted by Cerebum

You have to wonder if people perceive DSLR as old school, much like digital users view film. There was a video on YouTube in which the presenter said that mirrorless was fast, easy and accessible and possibly more capable, but if you wanted to do photography as an art form, shoot DSLR. In Lancaster Photographic society the vast majority shoot DSLR, but I suspect much of that comes down to price, availability and what you currently have (5D mk1v, D750 etc.). Replacing a high end full frame is an expensive business but we are seeing our first R5s.

When we did a survey of the society there were
23 Canon,
21 Nikon,
6 Sony,
4 Pentax,
2 Olympus
1 Fuji

Intersting info.

---------- Post added 05-05-21 at 07:22 PM ----------

Originally posted by Trey45

I've been thinking about this for a while, and I'm probably wrong. But do you think the reason Pentax doesn't advertise much and limits their retail presence is due to ability to produce? Maybe they're producing at capacity and simply couldn't handle the workload if the public demand for their cameras was greater.

This is a go to market model concern. Capacity in manufacturing is a constraint for sure, but no coporation would limit its sales department by its ability to product if there was an opportunity to gain market share, sales $'s and profit.

One thing to consider is the distribution channel is limited to B&M independent retailers who have limited negotiating power (unlike Walmart / Target / Best Buy / Etc). That independent channel of distribution is also shrinking in size (I've seen a couple B&M stores close up in the decade I've been shooting).

The reality, changing distribution channels jeopardizes existing customer base, and also exposes a business to negotiated decrease in margin (requried buyback of obsolete products, mandatory promotional activity etc etc).

They're keeping their wagon hitched to B&M retailers, and trying to build a better mousetrap to be relevant. What they need is some big endorsments..so get out there and proselytize on your IG pages and Facebook and twitter.

**Photos-by-Chas** · 05-05-2021, 08:06 PM

Originally posted by cometguy

I don't understand this, either. I got into Pentax in the early 1980s when I bought a K1000 new with a kit lens at a big general retail store with a photo department, and I got the K1000 over other cameras because it was inexpensive. That hooked me into a lifetime with Pentax cameras and lenses, and I don't recall having done any special research beforehand; I do remember thinking that I don't want to pay the higher prices for a Nikon. So why doesn't Pentax keep some entry-level camera like that which is very inexpensive? The K70 is way, way over-priced for most people, and I'm not even sure why it exists, honestly. Pentax needs something around $200-$300 max that can be put in retail stores everywhere, where people can actually touch the thing ... something, anything, to get people to see the Pentax name and get more purchases.

A comparison that comes to mind is Porsche, in which they decided to bring out an SUV (Cayenne) twenty years ago -- to the chagrin and ridicule of many sports-car enthusiasts at the time -- followed up by a 4-door sedan (Panamera) in 2010, a smaller SUV (Macan) in 2014, and an all-electric 4-door sedan in 2019 (Taycan); the four-door Porsche sales have far surpassed the 2-door Porsche sales, with the cheapest new Porsches now being on a par with the most expensive new Toyotas today ... but the 4-door Porsches saved the company and saved the 2-door Porsches from going extinct when the company was struggling. The company desperately needed to sell a lot of units at lower prices, as selling limited numbers of 2-door sports cars at high prices was not enough to keep the company afloat; they needed some radical thinking to get more of the masses buying their cars rather than just an elite few. And I note that Porsche is a subsidiary of much-larger VW, just as Pentax is a subsidiary of much-larger Ricoh. I wish that Ricoh would push to get a GR-type camera more in the USD $200-$300 range (the current GR is prohibitively expensive to get many people to buy it) as well as to get a Pentax K-mount camera as a good entry camera like the K1000 was. The K70 is over-kill -- at least in terms of price -- for most people. And Pentax doesn't need mirrorless when it can let Ricoh do their mirrorless thing with the GR and their wide-angle gimmick cameras, though I think that Ricoh might be wise to put a Pentax label on a cheap mirrorless camera in the $200-$300 range, which would surely have good quality anyway (and much better quality than a smartphone camera).

I am in agreement to a degree. Pentax would benefit from marketing a less expensive camera, but is that what the public really wants? The advertisement agencies are possibly part of the problem. Are they pushing for the bigger, better, more advanced, more extras , more ease of operation, the more automatic? Many people want a camera that will think for them and take the photos without any action except pushing the shutter button. however, there are still many who want to really practice photography and have a camera that will take video, can get photos in dim light or the interchangeable lens because they think they will get better pictures. The market will support what the majority of people want.

The cameras Alex645 mentioned, Canon T7 and Nikon D3500 are entry level cameras, but the Nikon is going for $5-600 currently. And the K70 is not what I would call an entry level camera, it has so many nice extras on it that I would place it in the advanced or semi-pro category. I recently bought one to upgrade from a K-x, which also is a very good camera and was considered an entry level. At it's release 12 years ago, it was in the $400 plus price range. fairly comparable to the upgraded, improved and more versatile K70 released five years ago. Also the K70 is still in production because it is a camera that is wanted by the public.

Not meaning to be offensive or defensive, just looking at the situation in a, hopefully, objective manner. Expressing your opinion is your right and I support you having it.

**Yoda boy** · 05-06-2021, 05:19 AM

A recent post compared the two. Porsche did what they did in expanding their product line because of seeing where the market was going and where volume existed. Pentax is actually doing the same by concentrating on the higher end of the DSLR market. This is where the dedicated camera market is going. Comparing the mirrorless cameras to DSLR, there are more similarities than differences, at least when it comes to a consumer making a choice. It depends upon what you consider your higher and lower priorities. Reviewing the newest Pentax products, they are all in the higher level range and that will likely prove to be a wise decision by Ricoh. No company can be everything to everyone, not even Canon or Nikon. Can you imagine their production costs for all the models that they offer?

---------- Post added 05-06-21 at 05:22 AM ----------

Originally posted by gofour3

I was in Victoria BC last month shooting film with my Z1-p and ran into a fellow Pentax DSLR shooter.

Does not happen every day, but I do run into Pentax shooters at least once every trip.

Phil.

Just goes to show you that Victoria is such a nice place to visit.

deus ursus · 05-06-2021, 06:56 AM

Audi went the other way (than Porsche). Up until the 70's/early 80's they were a middle class brand at best, way below Mercedes Benz, BMW, Jaguar etc. Now they are a premium brand, and are doing well at that.

**Photos-by-Chas** · 05-06-2021, 04:53 PM

I think it is a stretch to compare cameras to automobiles.

**Mooncatt** · 05-06-2021, 05:34 PM - **2 Likes**

Originally posted by Photos-by-Chas

I think it is a stretch to compare cameras to automobiles.

*In the voice of Shrek*

Car tires are round. Lenses are round. You get it, both have round parts.

**mattt** · 05-06-2021, 06:05 PM

Originally posted by Photos-by-Chas

I think it is a stretch to compare cameras to automobiles.

Its not the product, its the MBA's and marketing people behind the big tables. I work for a paint company and we regularly make comparisons to premium brand positioning and the segmentation in the Automobile industry. The tactics used by the 3 letter folks are universal.

**Cerebum** · 05-07-2021, 06:36 AM

I think car companies are relatable as we all have an idea of their size and status.

Re rarity, we now have two KPs, two K3s and a K70 in Lancaster Photographic society. We're taking over

that does put Pentax neck and neck for third with Sony

deus ursus · 05-07-2021, 06:58 AM

Originally posted by Photos-by-Chas

I think it is a stretch to compare cameras to automobiles.

Not so much comparing cars to cameras as comparing strategies for gaining profit.

cameranorm · 05-07-2021, 10:31 AM - **1 Like**

Originally posted by KxBlaze

We are but who really cares. I have only been asked "why Pentax" once (but i've only had a Pentax for about 5 months), to which I replied, "Because I like it". At first the Nikon shooter was very nice, he came up to me and said, "I notice you had a nice camera" and started a casual conversation. That lasted about 45 seconds then he was trying to tell me this, tell me that, Nikon is better, you should have gotten a Canon, etc..... After only about 5 seconds of that I told the gentleman to "Please stop right there and please stop talking to me, I do not know you, I do not care about what you have to say. You started off nice enough but turned into something I do not wish to waste my time on. Have a nice day with your Nikon and I'll have one with my Pentax", and never heard from the guy again.

Canikons are like street priests. They speak like canikons are the holy gospel and try to push their religon upon the world. I do believe there is free will amongst the free and I tend to tell every canikon that I am entitled to what makes me happy and do not need to justify my SUPERIOR (haha) Pentax to you.

I subscribed to another photo forum and people were always beating each other over the head over which is "better"....Nikon or Canon. I have been a Canon user for 40 years and loved Canons, having three DLSRs and a lot of collected film SLRs. I use and collect film also and have a lovely Japanese-made K1000 and just acquired an *istD and think it is a beautiful little machine!

I've learned more about Pentaxes and their lenses in the past two weeks than in 50 years of photography. Also that Pentax lenses go for top dollar at used dealers and eBay. Trying to decide what AF lens to buy for the *istD. As an aside, my *istD is actually labelled "zxD", which was a big mystery until I finally went deep enough in Google and found it is an *istD rebadged for the South Korean market because of trademark issues.

OrchidJulie · 05-07-2021, 01:39 PM

Originally posted by cameranorm

I subscribed to another photo forum and people were always beating each other over the head over which is "better"....Nikon or Canon. I have been a Canon user for 40 years and loved Canons, having three DLSRs and a lot of collected film SLRs. I use and collect film also and have a lovely Japanese-made K1000 and just acquired an *istD and think it is a beautiful little machine!

I've learned more about Pentaxes and their lenses in the past two weeks than in 50 years of photography. Also that Pentax lenses go for top dollar at used dealers and eBay. Trying to decide what AF lens to buy for the *istD. As an aside, my *istD is actually labelled "zxD", which was a big mystery until I finally went deep enough in Google and found it is an *istD rebadged for the South Korean market because of trademark issues.

Welcome to Pentax Forum, Norm. I think you'll find us pretty friendly, and we don't beat each other over the head over "those other cameras". I think many of us have experience with multiple nameplates, but I for one am partial to my Pentaxes, going back more than 40 years to my Asahi Pentax Spotmatics. Glad to have you aboard!

totsmuyco · 05-07-2021, 04:16 PM

I don't think we will ever get a cheap DSLR. The K-70 exceeds the features and the quality of all entry level cameras considering that is weather sealed and all. Considering the difficulty in the photogaphy business, I think all companies are struggling for survival. The craze for DSLR has been replaced by cellphones.

shyrsio · 05-07-2021, 04:44 PM

I have yet to meet another pentax user in my town. The only one person I every met was a tourist. I have a Nikon friend who seems to be near the verge of converting but he doesnt count. We are rare, I'll tell you that!

**Photos-by-Chas** · 05-08-2021, 06:26 AM

Originally posted by totsmuyco

I don't think we will ever get a cheap DSLR. The K-70 exceeds the features and the quality of all entry level cameras considering that is weather sealed and all. Considering the difficulty in the photogaphy business, I think all companies are struggling for survival. The craze for DSLR has been replaced by cellphones.

True, there are many people, usually younger, who rely on cell phones rather than a MILC or DSLR. I have a son who is a Millennial and he depends on his cell phone for almost everything, internet, photos, clock/watch, and even some of his daily work, though for work he does have a laptop computer he uses. He has a wonderful eye for composition, color, poses, and uses no post processing of any kind.

05-06-2021, 05:19 AM	#6514
Yoda boy Site Supporter Join Date: May 2015 Location: Central Ontario Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 144	comparing Pentax to Porsche A recent post compared the two. Porsche did what they did in expanding their product line because of seeing where the market was going and where volume existed. Pentax is actually doing the same by concentrating on the higher end of the DSLR market. This is where the dedicated camera market is going. Comparing the mirrorless cameras to DSLR, there are more similarities than differences, at least when it comes to a consumer making a choice. It depends upon what you consider your higher and lower priorities. Reviewing the newest Pentax products, they are all in the higher level range and that will likely prove to be a wise decision by Ricoh. No company can be everything to everyone, not even Canon or Nikon. Can you imagine their production costs for all the models that they offer? ---------- Post added 05-06-21 at 05:22 AM ---------- Originally posted by gofour3 I was in Victoria BC last month shooting film with my Z1-p and ran into a fellow Pentax DSLR shooter. Does not happen every day, but I do run into Pentax shooters at least once every trip. Phil. Just goes to show you that Victoria is such a nice place to visit.

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05-05-2021, 02:44 PM	#6511
gofour3 Site Supporter Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Vancouver, Canada Posts: 8,092	I was in Victoria BC last month shooting film with my Z1-p and ran into a fellow Pentax DSLR shooter. Does not happen every day, but I do run into Pentax shooters at least once every trip. Phil.

05-05-2021, 06:17 PM	#6512
mattt Site Supporter Join Date: Feb 2011 Location: Niagara Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 3,907	Originally posted by Cerebum You have to wonder if people perceive DSLR as old school, much like digital users view film. There was a video on YouTube in which the presenter said that mirrorless was fast, easy and accessible and possibly more capable, but if you wanted to do photography as an art form, shoot DSLR. In Lancaster Photographic society the vast majority shoot DSLR, but I suspect much of that comes down to price, availability and what you currently have (5D mk1v, D750 etc.). Replacing a high end full frame is an expensive business but we are seeing our first R5s. When we did a survey of the society there were 23 Canon, 21 Nikon, 6 Sony, 4 Pentax, 2 Olympus 1 Fuji Intersting info. ---------- Post added 05-05-21 at 07:22 PM ---------- Originally posted by Trey45 I've been thinking about this for a while, and I'm probably wrong. But do you think the reason Pentax doesn't advertise much and limits their retail presence is due to ability to produce? Maybe they're producing at capacity and simply couldn't handle the workload if the public demand for their cameras was greater. This is a go to market model concern. Capacity in manufacturing is a constraint for sure, but no coporation would limit its sales department by its ability to product if there was an opportunity to gain market share, sales $'s and profit. One thing to consider is the distribution channel is limited to B&M independent retailers who have limited negotiating power (unlike Walmart / Target / Best Buy / Etc). That independent channel of distribution is also shrinking in size (I've seen a couple B&M stores close up in the decade I've been shooting). The reality, changing distribution channels jeopardizes existing customer base, and also exposes a business to negotiated decrease in margin (requried buyback of obsolete products, mandatory promotional activity etc etc). They're keeping their wagon hitched to B&M retailers, and trying to build a better mousetrap to be relevant. What they need is some big endorsments..so get out there and proselytize on your IG pages and Facebook and twitter.

05-05-2021, 08:06 PM	#6513
Photos-by-Chas Site Supporter Join Date: Jul 2012 Location: Northwest Pennsylvania, USA Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 1,318	Originally posted by cometguy I don't understand this, either. I got into Pentax in the early 1980s when I bought a K1000 new with a kit lens at a big general retail store with a photo department, and I got the K1000 over other cameras because it was inexpensive. That hooked me into a lifetime with Pentax cameras and lenses, and I don't recall having done any special research beforehand; I do remember thinking that I don't want to pay the higher prices for a Nikon. So why doesn't Pentax keep some entry-level camera like that which is very inexpensive? The K70 is way, way over-priced for most people, and I'm not even sure why it exists, honestly. Pentax needs something around $200-$300 max that can be put in retail stores everywhere, where people can actually touch the thing ... something, anything, to get people to see the Pentax name and get more purchases. A comparison that comes to mind is Porsche, in which they decided to bring out an SUV (Cayenne) twenty years ago -- to the chagrin and ridicule of many sports-car enthusiasts at the time -- followed up by a 4-door sedan (Panamera) in 2010, a smaller SUV (Macan) in 2014, and an all-electric 4-door sedan in 2019 (Taycan); the four-door Porsche sales have far surpassed the 2-door Porsche sales, with the cheapest new Porsches now being on a par with the most expensive new Toyotas today ... but the 4-door Porsches saved the company and saved the 2-door Porsches from going extinct when the company was struggling. The company desperately needed to sell a lot of units at lower prices, as selling limited numbers of 2-door sports cars at high prices was not enough to keep the company afloat; they needed some radical thinking to get more of the masses buying their cars rather than just an elite few. And I note that Porsche is a subsidiary of much-larger VW, just as Pentax is a subsidiary of much-larger Ricoh. I wish that Ricoh would push to get a GR-type camera more in the USD $200-$300 range (the current GR is prohibitively expensive to get many people to buy it) as well as to get a Pentax K-mount camera as a good entry camera like the K1000 was. The K70 is over-kill -- at least in terms of price -- for most people. And Pentax doesn't need mirrorless when it can let Ricoh do their mirrorless thing with the GR and their wide-angle gimmick cameras, though I think that Ricoh might be wise to put a Pentax label on a cheap mirrorless camera in the $200-$300 range, which would surely have good quality anyway (and much better quality than a smartphone camera). I am in agreement to a degree. Pentax would benefit from marketing a less expensive camera, but is that what the public really wants? The advertisement agencies are possibly part of the problem. Are they pushing for the bigger, better, more advanced, more extras , more ease of operation, the more automatic? Many people want a camera that will think for them and take the photos without any action except pushing the shutter button. however, there are still many who want to really practice photography and have a camera that will take video, can get photos in dim light or the interchangeable lens because they think they will get better pictures. The market will support what the majority of people want. The cameras Alex645 mentioned, Canon T7 and Nikon D3500 are entry level cameras, but the Nikon is going for $5-600 currently. And the K70 is not what I would call an entry level camera, it has so many nice extras on it that I would place it in the advanced or semi-pro category. I recently bought one to upgrade from a K-x, which also is a very good camera and was considered an entry level. At it's release 12 years ago, it was in the $400 plus price range. fairly comparable to the upgraded, improved and more versatile K70 released five years ago. Also the K70 is still in production because it is a camera that is wanted by the public. Not meaning to be offensive or defensive, just looking at the situation in a, hopefully, objective manner. Expressing your opinion is your right and I support you having it.

05-06-2021, 06:56 AM	#6515
deus ursus Pentaxian Join Date: Nov 2012 Location: Stårheim, Norway Posts: 659	Audi went the other way (than Porsche). Up until the 70's/early 80's they were a middle class brand at best, way below Mercedes Benz, BMW, Jaguar etc. Now they are a premium brand, and are doing well at that.

05-06-2021, 04:53 PM	#6516
Photos-by-Chas Site Supporter Join Date: Jul 2012 Location: Northwest Pennsylvania, USA Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 1,318	I think it is a stretch to compare cameras to automobiles.

05-06-2021, 05:34 PM - 2 Likes	#6517
Mooncatt Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: May 2020 Location: Wisconsin Photos: Gallery Posts: 1,373	Originally posted by Photos-by-Chas I think it is a stretch to compare cameras to automobiles. In the voice of Shrek Car tires are round. Lenses are round. You get it, both have round parts.

05-06-2021, 06:05 PM	#6518
mattt Site Supporter Join Date: Feb 2011 Location: Niagara Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 3,907	Originally posted by Photos-by-Chas I think it is a stretch to compare cameras to automobiles. Its not the product, its the MBA's and marketing people behind the big tables. I work for a paint company and we regularly make comparisons to premium brand positioning and the segmentation in the Automobile industry. The tactics used by the 3 letter folks are universal.

05-07-2021, 06:36 AM	#6519
Cerebum Site Supporter Join Date: Oct 2017 Location: Lancaster Photos: Gallery Posts: 3,829	I think car companies are relatable as we all have an idea of their size and status. Re rarity, we now have two KPs, two K3s and a K70 in Lancaster Photographic society. We're taking over that does put Pentax neck and neck for third with Sony

05-07-2021, 06:58 AM	#6520
deus ursus Pentaxian Join Date: Nov 2012 Location: Stårheim, Norway Posts: 659	Originally posted by Photos-by-Chas I think it is a stretch to compare cameras to automobiles. Not so much comparing cars to cameras as comparing strategies for gaining profit.

05-07-2021, 10:31 AM - 1 Like	#6521
cameranorm New Member Join Date: May 2021 Posts: 10	Originally posted by KxBlaze We are but who really cares. I have only been asked "why Pentax" once (but i've only had a Pentax for about 5 months), to which I replied, "Because I like it". At first the Nikon shooter was very nice, he came up to me and said, "I notice you had a nice camera" and started a casual conversation. That lasted about 45 seconds then he was trying to tell me this, tell me that, Nikon is better, you should have gotten a Canon, etc..... After only about 5 seconds of that I told the gentleman to "Please stop right there and please stop talking to me, I do not know you, I do not care about what you have to say. You started off nice enough but turned into something I do not wish to waste my time on. Have a nice day with your Nikon and I'll have one with my Pentax", and never heard from the guy again. Canikons are like street priests. They speak like canikons are the holy gospel and try to push their religon upon the world. I do believe there is free will amongst the free and I tend to tell every canikon that I am entitled to what makes me happy and do not need to justify my SUPERIOR (haha) Pentax to you. I subscribed to another photo forum and people were always beating each other over the head over which is "better"....Nikon or Canon. I have been a Canon user for 40 years and loved Canons, having three DLSRs and a lot of collected film SLRs. I use and collect film also and have a lovely Japanese-made K1000 and just acquired an istD and think it is a beautiful little machine! I've learned more about Pentaxes and their lenses in the past two weeks than in 50 years of photography. Also that Pentax lenses go for top dollar at used dealers and eBay. Trying to decide what AF lens to buy for the istD. As an aside, my istD is actually labelled "zxD", which was a big mystery until I finally went deep enough in Google and found it is an istD rebadged for the South Korean market because of trademark issues.

05-07-2021, 01:39 PM	#6522
OrchidJulie Moderator Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Jun 2012 Location: Magic City Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 6,995	Originally posted by cameranorm I subscribed to another photo forum and people were always beating each other over the head over which is "better"....Nikon or Canon. I have been a Canon user for 40 years and loved Canons, having three DLSRs and a lot of collected film SLRs. I use and collect film also and have a lovely Japanese-made K1000 and just acquired an istD and think it is a beautiful little machine! I've learned more about Pentaxes and their lenses in the past two weeks than in 50 years of photography. Also that Pentax lenses go for top dollar at used dealers and eBay. Trying to decide what AF lens to buy for the istD. As an aside, my istD is actually labelled "zxD", which was a big mystery until I finally went deep enough in Google and found it is an istD rebadged for the South Korean market because of trademark issues. Welcome to Pentax Forum, Norm. I think you'll find us pretty friendly, and we don't beat each other over the head over "those other cameras". I think many of us have experience with multiple nameplates, but I for one am partial to my Pentaxes, going back more than 40 years to my Asahi Pentax Spotmatics. Glad to have you aboard!

05-07-2021, 04:16 PM	#6523
totsmuyco Pentaxian Join Date: Aug 2013 Location: Iloilo City Photos: Gallery Posts: 2,276	I don't think we will ever get a cheap DSLR. The K-70 exceeds the features and the quality of all entry level cameras considering that is weather sealed and all. Considering the difficulty in the photogaphy business, I think all companies are struggling for survival. The craze for DSLR has been replaced by cellphones.

05-07-2021, 04:44 PM	#6524
shyrsio Pentaxian Join Date: Apr 2016 Location: Tirana Posts: 780	I have yet to meet another pentax user in my town. The only one person I every met was a tourist. I have a Nikon friend who seems to be near the verge of converting but he doesnt count. We are rare, I'll tell you that!

05-08-2021, 06:26 AM	#6525
Photos-by-Chas Site Supporter Join Date: Jul 2012 Location: Northwest Pennsylvania, USA Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 1,318	Originally posted by totsmuyco I don't think we will ever get a cheap DSLR. The K-70 exceeds the features and the quality of all entry level cameras considering that is weather sealed and all. Considering the difficulty in the photogaphy business, I think all companies are struggling for survival. The craze for DSLR has been replaced by cellphones. True, there are many people, usually younger, who rely on cell phones rather than a MILC or DSLR. I have a son who is a Millennial and he depends on his cell phone for almost everything, internet, photos, clock/watch, and even some of his daily work, though for work he does have a laptop computer he uses. He has a wonderful eye for composition, color, poses, and uses no post processing of any kind.