Are we really THAT rare?

**aslyfox** · 12-09-2017, 06:41 AM

Originally posted by normhead

In a word , no.
If there are any Ferrari owners here, speak up, prove me wrong.

but I don't think we own Edsels ( automobile or camera + lenses ) either

" They didn't buy it because it didn’t live up to the expectations the company created in the prior months with the epic advertising campaign.

So actually the first failure occurred for the Ford Edsel before anyone even saw the automobile.

And for those who did buy an Edsel found that the car was plagued with shoddy workmanship. Many of the vehicles that showed up at the dealer showroom had notes attached to the steering wheel listing the parts not installed. In addition to the car not living up to the marketing hype, the United States was in a recession and Edsel offered its most expensive models first while other carmakers were discounting last year’s models. This was their second failure. . . .

Not having a separate and dedicated work force to build Edsel cars would prove to be the third and biggest failure. . . .

The automobiles biggest problem was its automatic “Tele-touch” transmission. The driver selected the gears by pushing buttons on the center of the steering wheel.
Introducing a complicated system without training the dealership level mechanics how to fix it became failure number four. . . . "

The Edsel Automobile ? A Legacy of Failure

I agree we don't own " Ferraris "

I think that Pentax has a better cost/value ratio than that

I think of Pentax as having good quality equipment up and down the price line, the ability to take advantage of past " knowledge " and lenses and as a " secret " brand

as good or better than the better known ones which may have as great or greater top of the line products with high prices but lower end lesser quality " door buster " items

IMHO, YMMV

Last edited by aslyfox; 12-09-2017 at 06:49 AM.

**BarryE** · 12-09-2017, 09:08 AM

Someone said above it's sad the DSLR market is declining. Is it ? It is if it goes too far, obviously. It is if you've got a shed load of overheads and some iffy models to try shift. But if you can get the balance of the marketing spend to the sales made and maintain a reasonable profit, you're fine - if you don't have aspirations to grow, and the DSLR market is unlikely to ever grow,

So maybe Ricoh are being smart. Let Nikon and Canon eat themselves up from within with their overheads, and maybe Pentax and the likes of Fuiji will stay the course, supported by modest sales and modest marketing (and us). It's an approach which is serving us well enough, I'd say. Yes, we'd like more. Yes, we'd be in a mess if a Hoya-like takeover happened again, but, personally I think Ricoh are doing an OK job in this re-balancing market.

totsmuyco · 12-09-2017, 05:18 PM

Originally posted by BarryE

Someone said above it's sad the DSLR market is declining. Is it ? It is if it goes too far, obviously. It is if you've got a shed load of overheads and some iffy models to try shift. But if you can get the balance of the marketing spend to the sales made and maintain a reasonable profit, you're fine - ifSo maybe Ricoh are being smart. Let Nikon and Canon eat themselves up from within with their overheads, and maybe Pentax and the likes of Fuiji will stay the course, supported by modest sales and modest marketing (and us). It's an approach which is serving us well enough, I'd say. Yes, we'd like more. Yes, we'd be in a mess if a Hoya-like takeover happened again, but, personally I think Ricoh are doing an OK job in this re-balancing market.

It's just my thoughts. With the introduction of the K-1, new sensors on the KP and K-70, new high end lenses on both FF and APS-C, I think Ricoh is redefining Pentax in the market. I think they have something up their sleeves. They're just not saying it.

**BigDave** · 12-10-2017, 09:42 AM - **1 Like**

Originally posted by totsmuyco

It's just my thoughts. With the introduction of the K-1, new sensors on the KP and K-70, new high end lenses on both FF and APS-C, I think Ricoh is redefining Pentax in the market. I think they have something up their sleeves. They're just not saying it.

And they're doing a good job keeping it a secret too!

Helios 1984 · 12-11-2017, 05:23 PM

Originally posted by totsmuyco

It's just my thoughts. With the introduction of the K-1, new sensors on the KP and K-70, new high end lenses on both FF and APS-C, I think Ricoh is redefining Pentax in the market. I think they have something up their sleeves. They're just not saying it.

I hope the secret is not to scrap the ~~Pentax~~ brandname and push forward Ricoh... Ricoh K-1 Mark II

**clackers** · 12-11-2017, 08:30 PM - **1 Like**

Originally posted by Helios 1984

I hope the secret is not to scrap the ~~Pentax~~ brandname and push forward Ricoh... Ricoh K-1 Mark II

Well, that'd be a reversal of what they did - withdraw funding of their own Ricoh compacts and bring out a Pentax FF.

totsmuyco · 12-12-2017, 04:47 AM - **1 Like**

Originally posted by Helios 1984

I hope the secret is not to scrap the ~~Pentax~~ brandname and push forward Ricoh... Ricoh K-1 Mark II

I don't think that's gonna happen. Don't you remember the reactions of members here when Ricoh placed their name at the back of the K-3? I don't think they want to have that kind of feedback again. A lot of guys here might dump their Pentax gears and move to another system.

It is not the Jedi's way. It will be turning to the dark side. In pentaxforums.com, changing Pentax's name is heresy.

jeryst · 12-12-2017, 04:59 PM - **2 Likes**

I have noticed that K-1's and K-3's are showing up in "Top 5" and "Top 10" reviews.
Maybe just making good dependable gear with innovative features at a good price is enough.
Sometimes word of mouth is the best advertising because its true, not
like commercials that try to put a spin on things.

tim60 · 12-12-2017, 10:55 PM - **1 Like**

Originally posted by jeryst

I have noticed that K-1's and K-3's are showing up in "Top 5" and "Top 10" reviews.
Maybe just making good dependable gear with innovative features at a good price is enough.
Sometimes word of mouth is the best advertising because its true, not
like commercials that try to put a spin on things.

Word of mouth works when there is a critical mass in the market to tell the story, and also so that those intrigued can get a feel of the stuff. Need to see it somewhere in shops.

Sounds like a curious irony - the growth of those huge, warehouse size shops, makes it harder for small producers to get displayed, despite the huge shop floor space to display goods. The big shops do not want suppliers who might not be able to locate stuff at every site, and do not want to deal with fiddly small supply contracts for a small quantity of stuff, along with supply in small vans instead of 40 foot trailers etc because even the back of the shop is designed for a workflow based on whole big trucks, not small vans delivering a pallet of mixed goods..

normhead · 12-13-2017, 06:51 AM - **1 Like**

Originally posted by tim60

Word of mouth works when there is a critical mass in the market to tell the story, and also so that those intrigued can get a feel of the stuff. Need to see it somewhere in shops.

Sounds like a curious irony - the growth of those huge, warehouse size shops, makes it harder for small producers to get displayed, despite the huge shop floor space to display goods. The big shops do not want suppliers who might not be able to locate stuff at every site, and do not want to deal with fiddly small supply contracts for a small quantity of stuff, along with supply in small vans instead of 40 foot trailers etc because even the back of the shop is designed for a workflow based on whole big trucks, not small vans delivering a pallet of mixed goods..

And yet you have company's like Lee Valley tools who survived at least their first 20 years by having quality tools that no one else carried, and from word of mouth. I met Leonard Lee when his store was a warehouse with a catalogue, the warehouse was no bigger than 1,000 sq.feet. He came to our shop an looked in everybody's tool box to see what they had. There is at least one items he first saw in my tool box still in the catalogue today 40 years later.
http://www.leevalley.com/default.aspx

Getting a reputation for only having quality gear works too. Big box isn't the only way to go. I have seen pallets of Pentax gear at Costco here, but I'm not convinced those sales did anything for the brand. All those camera were sold, but are those really the customers who are going to buy more than 1 camera (and probably not any lenses, or are who are going to be loyal to the brand?

My daughter bought a Canon DSLR 5 years ago, second hand. She has no lenses for it but the kit lens. She has no desire to own anything else. I think the "flood the big retail chains with cheap product" model is in real trouble right now.

TheOneAndOnlyJH · 12-13-2017, 08:33 AM - **1 Like**

Originally posted by normhead

My daughter bought a Canon DSLR 5 years ago, second hand. She has no lenses for it but the kit lens. She has no desire to own anything else. I think the "flood the big retail chains with cheap product" model is in real trouble right now.

I think this is the demographic that contributed most to the Canikony boom over the past decade as people wanted to go digital but point and shoot cameras and phone cameras were somewhat lacking. I know a people who never went beyond the kit lens, and a few that leave their DSLR on a shelf now that phones have gotten so much better.

DSLR and compact camera sales will only continue to drop as phone cameras keep improving, and Canon and the rest may have to increase prices as they lose entry DSLR sales volume. Pentax already knows how to operate lean, so I'm hoping they can keep their prices as low as they are now.

jeryst · 12-13-2017, 09:19 AM

Originally posted by TheOneAndOnlyJH

I think this is the demographic that contributed most to the Canikony boom over the past decade as people wanted to go digital but point and shoot cameras and phone cameras were somewhat lacking. I know a people who never went beyond the kit lens, and a few that leave their DSLR on a shelf now that phones have gotten so much better.

DSLR and compact camera sales will only continue to drop as phone cameras keep improving, and Canon and the rest may have to increase prices as they lose entry DSLR sales volume. Pentax already knows how to operate lean, so I'm hoping they can keep their prices as low as they are now.

I agree that phones are probably the biggest reason for the decline. The cameras are constantly getting better,
and we always have them on us, so they are super convenient. I hardly ever see an actual camera any more
when I go someplace. Mostly, I just see a sea of cell phones with an occasional point and shoot. Overall, I think the point and shoot market is probably declining the fastest. Will the photos ever be as good as a DSLR? Probably not, but for the majority of people, its good enough because they either look at them on their phone or computer screen, or go to Wallmart and have 5x7's made. The professional market probably wont shrink as much, overall. I love taking photos with my Pentax, but there are times when I just dont feel like lugging it around, protecting it, etc. Just so much simpler to whip your cell phone out of your pocket and push a button. And the video is acceptable as well.

I read somewhere that the technology exists to build phone cameras that have five times the current resolution and the only reason it isnt happening is because of cost and file size.

**BarryE** · 12-13-2017, 09:42 AM

Originally posted by jeryst

I read somewhere that the technology exists to build phone cameras that have five times the current resolution and the only reason it isnt happening is because of cost and file size.

And the DR would be, how shall i phrase this? Not especially good ...

**jpzk** · 12-13-2017, 10:08 AM

Originally posted by BigDave

I think they have something up their sleeves

I would think that too ! ((hopefully))

TheOneAndOnlyJH · 12-13-2017, 10:20 AM - **1 Like**

Originally posted by jeryst

The professional market probably wont shrink as much, overall.

I wouldn't even be surprised if the pro level DSLR market continues to grow, just not as fast as before. And I'm sure prices will rise when they're no longer subsidized by large sales volumes of entry level cameras.

---------- Post added 12-13-17 at 12:21 PM ----------

Except Pentax, of course. They can keep their prices low.

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12-09-2017, 06:41 AM	#5011
aslyfox Seeker of Knowledge Join Date: Aug 2016 Location: Topeka, Kansas Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 24,581	Originally posted by normhead In a word , no. If there are any Ferrari owners here, speak up, prove me wrong. but I don't think we own Edsels ( automobile or camera + lenses ) either " They didn't buy it because it didn’t live up to the expectations the company created in the prior months with the epic advertising campaign. So actually the first failure occurred for the Ford Edsel before anyone even saw the automobile. And for those who did buy an Edsel found that the car was plagued with shoddy workmanship. Many of the vehicles that showed up at the dealer showroom had notes attached to the steering wheel listing the parts not installed. In addition to the car not living up to the marketing hype, the United States was in a recession and Edsel offered its most expensive models first while other carmakers were discounting last year’s models. This was their second failure. . . . Not having a separate and dedicated work force to build Edsel cars would prove to be the third and biggest failure. . . . The automobiles biggest problem was its automatic “Tele-touch” transmission. The driver selected the gears by pushing buttons on the center of the steering wheel. Introducing a complicated system without training the dealership level mechanics how to fix it became failure number four. . . . " The Edsel Automobile ? A Legacy of Failure I agree we don't own " Ferraris " I think that Pentax has a better cost/value ratio than that I think of Pentax as having good quality equipment up and down the price line, the ability to take advantage of past " knowledge " and lenses and as a " secret " brand as good or better than the better known ones which may have as great or greater top of the line products with high prices but lower end lesser quality " door buster " items IMHO, YMMV Last edited by aslyfox; 12-09-2017 at 06:49 AM.

12-09-2017, 09:08 AM	#5012
BarryE Site Supporter Join Date: Jan 2013 Location: Hampshire, UK Posts: 1,653	Someone said above it's sad the DSLR market is declining. Is it ? It is if it goes too far, obviously. It is if you've got a shed load of overheads and some iffy models to try shift. But if you can get the balance of the marketing spend to the sales made and maintain a reasonable profit, you're fine - if you don't have aspirations to grow, and the DSLR market is unlikely to ever grow, So maybe Ricoh are being smart. Let Nikon and Canon eat themselves up from within with their overheads, and maybe Pentax and the likes of Fuiji will stay the course, supported by modest sales and modest marketing (and us). It's an approach which is serving us well enough, I'd say. Yes, we'd like more. Yes, we'd be in a mess if a Hoya-like takeover happened again, but, personally I think Ricoh are doing an OK job in this re-balancing market.

12-09-2017, 05:18 PM	#5013
totsmuyco Pentaxian Join Date: Aug 2013 Location: Iloilo City Photos: Gallery Posts: 2,276	Originally posted by BarryE Someone said above it's sad the DSLR market is declining. Is it ? It is if it goes too far, obviously. It is if you've got a shed load of overheads and some iffy models to try shift. But if you can get the balance of the marketing spend to the sales made and maintain a reasonable profit, you're fine - ifSo maybe Ricoh are being smart. Let Nikon and Canon eat themselves up from within with their overheads, and maybe Pentax and the likes of Fuiji will stay the course, supported by modest sales and modest marketing (and us). It's an approach which is serving us well enough, I'd say. Yes, we'd like more. Yes, we'd be in a mess if a Hoya-like takeover happened again, but, personally I think Ricoh are doing an OK job in this re-balancing market. It's just my thoughts. With the introduction of the K-1, new sensors on the KP and K-70, new high end lenses on both FF and APS-C, I think Ricoh is redefining Pentax in the market. I think they have something up their sleeves. They're just not saying it.

12-10-2017, 09:42 AM - 1 Like	#5014
BigDave Site Supporter Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: Hudson Valley, NY Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 2,626	Originally posted by totsmuyco It's just my thoughts. With the introduction of the K-1, new sensors on the KP and K-70, new high end lenses on both FF and APS-C, I think Ricoh is redefining Pentax in the market. I think they have something up their sleeves. They're just not saying it. And they're doing a good job keeping it a secret too!

12-11-2017, 05:23 PM	#5015
Helios 1984 Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2013 Location: Saint-Constant, Québec Posts: 747	Originally posted by totsmuyco It's just my thoughts. With the introduction of the K-1, new sensors on the KP and K-70, new high end lenses on both FF and APS-C, I think Ricoh is redefining Pentax in the market. I think they have something up their sleeves. They're just not saying it. I hope the secret is not to scrap the ~~Pentax~~ brandname and push forward Ricoh... Ricoh K-1 Mark II

12-11-2017, 08:30 PM - 1 Like	#5016
clackers Otis Memorial Pentaxian Join Date: Jul 2013 Location: Melbourne Photos: Albums Posts: 16,397	Originally posted by Helios 1984 I hope the secret is not to scrap the ~~Pentax~~ brandname and push forward Ricoh... Ricoh K-1 Mark II Well, that'd be a reversal of what they did - withdraw funding of their own Ricoh compacts and bring out a Pentax FF.

12-12-2017, 04:47 AM - 1 Like	#5017
totsmuyco Pentaxian Join Date: Aug 2013 Location: Iloilo City Photos: Gallery Posts: 2,276	Originally posted by Helios 1984 I hope the secret is not to scrap the ~~Pentax~~ brandname and push forward Ricoh... Ricoh K-1 Mark II I don't think that's gonna happen. Don't you remember the reactions of members here when Ricoh placed their name at the back of the K-3? I don't think they want to have that kind of feedback again. A lot of guys here might dump their Pentax gears and move to another system. It is not the Jedi's way. It will be turning to the dark side. In pentaxforums.com, changing Pentax's name is heresy.

12-12-2017, 04:59 PM - 2 Likes	#5018
jeryst Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: Western PA Posts: 136	I have noticed that K-1's and K-3's are showing up in "Top 5" and "Top 10" reviews. Maybe just making good dependable gear with innovative features at a good price is enough. Sometimes word of mouth is the best advertising because its true, not like commercials that try to put a spin on things.

12-12-2017, 10:55 PM - 1 Like	#5019
tim60 Pentaxian Join Date: Apr 2011 Photos: Albums Posts: 8,745	Originally posted by jeryst I have noticed that K-1's and K-3's are showing up in "Top 5" and "Top 10" reviews. Maybe just making good dependable gear with innovative features at a good price is enough. Sometimes word of mouth is the best advertising because its true, not like commercials that try to put a spin on things. Word of mouth works when there is a critical mass in the market to tell the story, and also so that those intrigued can get a feel of the stuff. Need to see it somewhere in shops. Sounds like a curious irony - the growth of those huge, warehouse size shops, makes it harder for small producers to get displayed, despite the huge shop floor space to display goods. The big shops do not want suppliers who might not be able to locate stuff at every site, and do not want to deal with fiddly small supply contracts for a small quantity of stuff, along with supply in small vans instead of 40 foot trailers etc because even the back of the shop is designed for a workflow based on whole big trucks, not small vans delivering a pallet of mixed goods..

12-13-2017, 06:51 AM - 1 Like	#5020
normhead Pentaxian Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Near Algonquin Park Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 40,451	Originally posted by tim60 Word of mouth works when there is a critical mass in the market to tell the story, and also so that those intrigued can get a feel of the stuff. Need to see it somewhere in shops. Sounds like a curious irony - the growth of those huge, warehouse size shops, makes it harder for small producers to get displayed, despite the huge shop floor space to display goods. The big shops do not want suppliers who might not be able to locate stuff at every site, and do not want to deal with fiddly small supply contracts for a small quantity of stuff, along with supply in small vans instead of 40 foot trailers etc because even the back of the shop is designed for a workflow based on whole big trucks, not small vans delivering a pallet of mixed goods.. And yet you have company's like Lee Valley tools who survived at least their first 20 years by having quality tools that no one else carried, and from word of mouth. I met Leonard Lee when his store was a warehouse with a catalogue, the warehouse was no bigger than 1,000 sq.feet. He came to our shop an looked in everybody's tool box to see what they had. There is at least one items he first saw in my tool box still in the catalogue today 40 years later. http://www.leevalley.com/default.aspx Getting a reputation for only having quality gear works too. Big box isn't the only way to go. I have seen pallets of Pentax gear at Costco here, but I'm not convinced those sales did anything for the brand. All those camera were sold, but are those really the customers who are going to buy more than 1 camera (and probably not any lenses, or are who are going to be loyal to the brand? My daughter bought a Canon DSLR 5 years ago, second hand. She has no lenses for it but the kit lens. She has no desire to own anything else. I think the "flood the big retail chains with cheap product" model is in real trouble right now.

12-13-2017, 08:33 AM - 1 Like	#5021
TheOneAndOnlyJH Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2013 Location: Buffalo, NY Posts: 351	Originally posted by normhead My daughter bought a Canon DSLR 5 years ago, second hand. She has no lenses for it but the kit lens. She has no desire to own anything else. I think the "flood the big retail chains with cheap product" model is in real trouble right now. I think this is the demographic that contributed most to the Canikony boom over the past decade as people wanted to go digital but point and shoot cameras and phone cameras were somewhat lacking. I know a people who never went beyond the kit lens, and a few that leave their DSLR on a shelf now that phones have gotten so much better. DSLR and compact camera sales will only continue to drop as phone cameras keep improving, and Canon and the rest may have to increase prices as they lose entry DSLR sales volume. Pentax already knows how to operate lean, so I'm hoping they can keep their prices as low as they are now.

12-13-2017, 09:19 AM	#5022
jeryst Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: Western PA Posts: 136	Originally posted by TheOneAndOnlyJH I think this is the demographic that contributed most to the Canikony boom over the past decade as people wanted to go digital but point and shoot cameras and phone cameras were somewhat lacking. I know a people who never went beyond the kit lens, and a few that leave their DSLR on a shelf now that phones have gotten so much better. DSLR and compact camera sales will only continue to drop as phone cameras keep improving, and Canon and the rest may have to increase prices as they lose entry DSLR sales volume. Pentax already knows how to operate lean, so I'm hoping they can keep their prices as low as they are now. I agree that phones are probably the biggest reason for the decline. The cameras are constantly getting better, and we always have them on us, so they are super convenient. I hardly ever see an actual camera any more when I go someplace. Mostly, I just see a sea of cell phones with an occasional point and shoot. Overall, I think the point and shoot market is probably declining the fastest. Will the photos ever be as good as a DSLR? Probably not, but for the majority of people, its good enough because they either look at them on their phone or computer screen, or go to Wallmart and have 5x7's made. The professional market probably wont shrink as much, overall. I love taking photos with my Pentax, but there are times when I just dont feel like lugging it around, protecting it, etc. Just so much simpler to whip your cell phone out of your pocket and push a button. And the video is acceptable as well. I read somewhere that the technology exists to build phone cameras that have five times the current resolution and the only reason it isnt happening is because of cost and file size.

12-13-2017, 09:42 AM	#5023
BarryE Site Supporter Join Date: Jan 2013 Location: Hampshire, UK Posts: 1,653	Originally posted by jeryst I read somewhere that the technology exists to build phone cameras that have five times the current resolution and the only reason it isnt happening is because of cost and file size. And the DR would be, how shall i phrase this? Not especially good ...

12-13-2017, 10:08 AM	#5024
jpzk Site Supporter Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Québec Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 8,251	Originally posted by BigDave I think they have something up their sleeves I would think that too ! ((hopefully))

12-13-2017, 10:20 AM - 1 Like	#5025
TheOneAndOnlyJH Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2013 Location: Buffalo, NY Posts: 351	Originally posted by jeryst The professional market probably wont shrink as much, overall. I wouldn't even be surprised if the pro level DSLR market continues to grow, just not as fast as before. And I'm sure prices will rise when they're no longer subsidized by large sales volumes of entry level cameras. ---------- Post added 12-13-17 at 12:21 PM ---------- Except Pentax, of course. They can keep their prices low.