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08-23-2007, 06:40 PM   #31
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Again, as I see it, it's all about perception...

QuoteOriginally posted by Chickenhawk Quote
Because Pentax makes wonderful mature products that we have relied on for many years
... that we have relied on for years. First-time dSLR buyers have no such experience. Hell, a lot of them have never touched a film camera before. If they've never used Pentax, rarely seen anyone use Pentax, if neither parent ever owned a K1000, What reason do they have for thinking Pentax makes wonderful reliable products?

QuoteQuote:
and they still make some of the best glass in the world.
... see my point above regarding the kid who thought the salesman was trying to con him with talk of the quality of Zuiko glass. We Pentax users know the quality of Pentax glass. First-time dSLR buyers might hear about it from someone like Mike Johnston, except they won't, because they'll read Ken Rockwell instead. Or they'll look on other websites and forums and be told that Canon L glass is the best you can get in the universe. Which, often, they will believe. Or quite likely in many cases, the importance of glass won't even occur to them until they have chosen a camera.

QuoteQuote:
Because Pentax does not release products with possible majour flaws in them that are going to cause pros to question whether they should have been so quick to upgrade.
Maybe so... but as far as I know, the other companies are not generally know for doing those things either, so Pentax has no advantage here in terms of brand image.

QuoteQuote:
Because shooting professionally with a Pentax is different - in a good way - and no REAL pro photographer would ever disparage another pro's choice of camera because we all know we buy the best we can afford for OUR style of shooting; no one else's. Pentax is still highly respected among pros.
Yes... but there are more non-professionals than professionals. And many of those non-professionals are very very opinionated, and happy to disparage others' choice of cameras. In fact there are plenty of professionals (or at least those who identify themselves as such) regularly posting on various forums, who while not directly disparaging a choice of camera will imply that only the big two have a complete system, that with any other choice you'll find yourself stuck if you get "more serious" about photography... and people will accept it, because they're hearing it from a "pro".

QuoteQuote:
Because - VERY surprisingly for some - my K10D bodies did not suddenly turn out crappy shots on the day Nikon announced the D300/D3. If the shots are crappy, it is MY fault. The camera does its job, and more.
Of course... I would never suggest otherwise. But sadly, being more-than-good-enough is no longer good enough... a really quite large number of people are truly concerned with having the latest and greatest. It doesn't matter whether they really need a certain spec; if the spec is higher they want it. Cameras are no longer only tools, they are like computers or phones... many people want the latest simply because it's the latest... and even many of those already invested convince themselves that they need to upgrade for the sake of upgrading.

Sorry for taking apart your post, I don't mean it personally... myself, I totally agree with everything you said. But what you said is fact, and sadly perception is very often more important than fact when it comes to sales. And sales are important for a relatively small company and its existing customers. What I'm really getting at is this... a lot of people aren't as rational as yourself... when they look for their first dSLR (or even their second) they are affected by what they hear and read about the various systems. It isn't even necessary for people to disparage Pentax... no need for negative coverage, the relative lack of positive coverage and awareness is a problem in itself. One EISA camera-of-the-year award does not compare to overwhelming coverage in various mediums, from seeing only Canon at sporting events, to watching CSI using Nikons, to seeing the Rebel ads on the street, via reading on countless websites that these brands are the choice of "pros". That's why some of us - regardless of our own contentedness with current Pentax products - feel that Pentax needs to do something... to be seen to be doing something.

08-23-2007, 08:00 PM   #32
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yep i am staying with "film" lenes LOL
08-23-2007, 08:11 PM   #33
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Wow! When I posted this topic last night, I expected a trickle of responses. This morning I see a flood instead. Since I'm relatively new to digital cameras (K10D is my first DSLR), I must have missed something along the way - this debate obviously being one. Of course, there's no way to respond to each person (would take all day). Luckily, that's not needed in a forum since people post for all, not just me, to read. So, instead, I'll respond to one or two responses after reading them all. This is not a slight to those not responded to. It just means either I agreed with what you said or didn't have anything to add.

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08-23-2007, 08:14 PM   #34
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Haha the day people start dropping pentax widespread will be the day I eagerly wait at the camera stores to pick up all the used smc glass. =P

08-23-2007, 08:48 PM   #35
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QuoteOriginally posted by roscot Quote
2 reasons why FF would desirable for me.

1. A 10-12MP sensor on a FF platform will have larger photosites which would mean much lower high ISO noise.

Now necessarily so. Just look at the many complaints regarding ugly green banding and high ISO image noise relating to the full-frame, 12.8 megapixel, image sensor in the Canon EOS 5D camera...

DSLR Photography » Chuck Westfall comments on 5D camera banding issues

From this, it would appear a full-frame image sensor alone is not a cure-all for everything.

Indeed, after reading about these issues with the Canon EOS 5D camera, the Pentax K10D with it's smaller APS-C image sensor seems almost tame by comparison.

stewart
08-23-2007, 09:10 PM   #36
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QuoteOriginally posted by ngkmh Quote
APS-C is dead with the Nikon announcement. In ten years time all new DSLRs will be FF.

Interesting. So you envision a not-to-distant future where Joe Familyman, out shopping with the family for a new DSLR, will place greater emphasis on sensor size when making a final purchasing decision. Well, perhaps. However, I suspect proclamations about the death of APS-C are just a bit premature.

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08-23-2007, 09:56 PM   #37
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My Prediction Of Pentax's Marketing Strategy.

QuoteOriginally posted by ngkmh Quote
To survive, Pentax has to go FF, even though APS-C is fine for most amateurs. Cost is another factor. FF sensors will get cheaper and cheaper...

I just cannot agree that Pentax now has to have a full-frame camera to survive. APS-C image sensors will continue to improve and get cheaper as well. As such, I envision a future where both co-exist for some time. Some manufacturers will continue to build upper-end DSLR's with high-quality full-frame sensors and low to mid-range DSLR's with a mixture of APS-C and lower-quality full-frame sensors, while other manufacturers will entirely ignore the expensive upper-end market to focus solely on the low to mid-range markets instead.

I suspect Pentax will be among the latter, focusing entirely on the low to mid-range DSLR market (the market now covered by the K1x0D, K10D, Canon EOS 5D, Nikon D40/80, upcoming Nikon D300, etc). This is the bread & butter market with the most sales and therefore the most profits. This market is now split between APS-C and full-frame sensors. However, I suspect as long as APS-C continues to compete in terms of image quality with these lower-end full-frame sensors, Pentax will continue to focus solely on the APS-C image sensor (their current lens lineup suggests the same). Of course, this strategy strongly suggests a new Pentax DSLR above the K10D will be aimed squarely at the Canon EOS 5D, Nikon D300, and similar cameras.

stewart

Last edited by stewart_photo; 08-24-2007 at 12:10 AM. Reason: spelling
08-23-2007, 11:16 PM   #38
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QuoteOriginally posted by harv3589 Quote
Is is a depressing thread, makes me think I made the wrong decision by buying my new K10D with all this talk that Pentax is falling behind.

Don't place too much emphasis on the things seen in these forums. It's real easy to talk with your mouth instead of your pocketbook. Cameras with full-frame image sensors have been around for years, but you'll notice none here bought those expensive cameras. Instead, they talk about an inexpensive Pentax with a full-frame image sensor - and it will have to be inexpensive since very few are going to open their pocketbooks to buy a truly expensive Pentax any more than they bought those other expensive cameras.

Anyway, there's absolutely nothing wrong with your K10D, or mine. The K10D is still very competitive with other cameras in it's price range, with image quality as good as that from similar cameras, and it still serves our needs well. In other words, it's a great camera. And Pentax itself is doing just fine, with growing profits, solid products, and future plans.

Doomsayers will always be around, pointing to the few predictions that come true, out of a staggering number made, as proof of their wisdom. Luckily, the vast majority of their predictions are entirely wrong.

stewart

08-23-2007, 11:48 PM   #39
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QuoteOriginally posted by stewart_photo Quote
I just cannot agree that Pentax now has to have a full-frame camera to survive. APS-C image sensors will continue to improve and get cheaper as well.
They will probably get cheaper and improve but you really do have to consider what imaging attributes are desirable to improve as there are trade offs that have to be balanced based on the physics that govern the function of the devices.

The fact is that sensors are currently very efficient, I think at best we can expect improvement of a stop WRT noise and D-image for any given current pixel density. Sensors simply have to increase in area if improvements in D-range and noise are to be realized whilst maintaining the pixel counts that the market currently demands.

This is the beauty of the FF sensor in the coming D3, it delivers over 12MP but at a density that's less than the old *ist D. In theory it should be less demanding on lenses and provide lower noise and greater D-range. For me that's about the ultimate combination, I'm not pleased that I no longer have a 3200 ISO option on my K10D and any greater sensor pixel density and we might see the fastest ISO available eroded to 800 for little real gain in resolution.

Each to their own but if Pentax don't consider the FF option I suspect they will just drift off into obscurity (like they almost did before they delivered their first DSLR).

Cheers,
08-24-2007, 12:05 AM   #40
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There are(were) only five (5) DSLR's that use 135 format sensors.
Full-frame digital SLR - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Two of them - Contax N and Kodak SLRn are not in production.

All of these cameras are very expensive. If you want to spend that kind of money and get lenses that "fit", you have way too much money on your hands. If Pentax joins the fray - I will not be joining them any time soon (only two 135 capable lenses - Tokina 28-70 and the FA 50). I remember reading that Kodak was stopping support on the SLRn (2005) a week before Ni*on announced that they were stopping the development of "full frame" lenses (the Kodak used Ni*on bodies and lenses).

Now Ni*on is back in the 135 sensor (so called Full Frame - which is a misnomer, when I print out a frame on my K10D or *ist Ds that is not cropped - that is Full Frame - I am using the entire frame --- hense Full) business. Some time in the future Pentax could be there too, but man - that puppy is going to be expensive.

Edit:
Just look around and see the people bi*ching about the size of PEF's with a 10MP K10D - use the same density of photosites and go to a 135 size sensor - how does 30 PEF images on a 1GB SD card sound? Plus add in the additional weight of batteries, circuitry ---- Carrying around a 10 lbs lump of plastic, metal, batteries and fast glass ...... now where did I put my Shirpa.

PDL
08-24-2007, 02:08 AM   #41
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All the above reminds me of the old joke about a Russan Zenit owner at a Nikon Camera Club meeting. "Ummm, nice gear, now let me see you pictures."

The difference between a picture and an image is the person.

Take care

David
08-24-2007, 06:07 AM   #42
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QuoteOriginally posted by PDL Quote
Just look around and see the people bi*ching about the size of PEF's with a 10MP K10D - use the same density of photosites and go to a 135 size sensor - how does 30 PEF images on a 1GB SD card sound? Plus add in the additional weight of batteries, circuitry ---- Carrying around a 10 lbs lump of plastic, metal, batteries and fast glass ...... now where did I put my Shirpa.
How does 30 PEFs on a 1GB card sound? Not all that bad when you consider that most likely, by the time we get a 135 sized sensor (if we do), a 1GB card will be laughably tiny, and no-one will be using one since we'll all be getting higher-capacity cards for the same money.

As for weight... well people used 35mm film cameras for plenty of years without too many complaints. Some even were willing to carry medium format SLRs for the advantages of the larger negative. Of course it's nicer to have lighter equipment, but if that were my priority then why wouldn't I go for a 4/3rds-system SLR instead?

I don't see "full-frame" 135 sensors as a holy grail at all. But I also fail to see how APS-C has any unique inherent advantages.

And, in response to several posters...I feel I should point out again, I am very very happy with current Pentax bodies. I am not 100% happy with current Pentax glass because I feel there are things missing that I want (both Pentax and third-party) but it's not nearly enough to make me consider switching system. The person makes the image, most of us here know that. A larger sensor will not make you a better photgrapher, most of us here know that too...
BUT... a lot of people who are looking to buy an SLR don't. A lot of people's choices are more influenced by ads and popular awareness of brands than by actual research. Even when people try to research what system to invest in, they are overwhelmingly going to be met by exhortations to buy Canon or Nikon. People go on forums saying they like the look of Pentax or Sony because of SR in-body. They are quickly told that SR is useless and that's why you need to spend the money on IS/VR in lens. They believe it, because it's coming from someone who appears to have more experience, and anyone with more experience is to them a "pro". To some extent it doesn't matter if larger sensors don't offer an advantage justifying the extra cost; if they can be pushed as an advantage - just like megapixels, just like IS/VR, just like silly psychological factors like "You'll look more pro with this brand" - then they will be.

I'm not prophesising doom and nor am I saying the future is guaranteed to be bright and shiny for us. I have no solid reason to believe either, any more than anyone else here. All I'm saying is, sales is important to the company, perception is important to sales, and the perception that a certain sensor type or size is important may well become more widespread. If so, can it really be ignored?
08-24-2007, 06:45 AM   #43
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Marketing 101

QuoteOriginally posted by stewart_photo Quote
I suspect Pentax will be among the latter, focusing entirely on the low to mid-range DSLR market (the market now covered by the K1x0D, K10D, Canon EOS 5D, Nikon D40/80, upcoming Nikon D300, etc). This is the bread & butter market with the most sales and therefore the most profits.

stewart
Most sales does not mean the most profit. The opposite is more often the case. Volume attracts competition and price point pressure. Higher profit can be made on niche products filling a need. The old saying "We will make it up on the volume" has bankrupt more than one company.

Regards,

Ken
08-24-2007, 07:33 AM   #44
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What Pentax needs to do is deliver on the 645D ...their 35mm style camera''s can continue to have APS size sensors and compete with the likes of the new D300 from Nikon. The 24/36 (FF) sensor in the 35 mm SLR style body has a limited market.

I think the 645D will outperform Cannon's new 21 mp FF camera for those looking for the ultimate IQ. ...So come on Pentax, get that 645D on to dealer's shelves and bring out your D300 beater. ...Cheers!
08-24-2007, 07:40 AM   #45
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QuoteOriginally posted by stewart_photo Quote
I just cannot agree that Pentax now has to have a full-frame camera to survive. APS-C image sensors will continue to improve and get cheaper as well. As such, I envision a future where both co-exist for some time. Some manufacturers will continue to build upper-end DSLR's with high-quality full-frame sensors and low to mid-range DSLR's with a mixture of APS-C and lower-quality full-frame sensors, while other manufacturers will entirely ignore the expensive upper-end market to focus solely on the low to mid-range markets instead.

I suspect Pentax will be among the latter, focusing entirely on the low to mid-range DSLR market (the market now covered by the K1x0D, K10D, Canon EOS 5D, Nikon D40/80, upcoming Nikon D300, etc). This is the bread & butter market with the most sales and therefore the most profits. This market is now split between APS-C and full-frame sensors. However, I suspect as long as APS-C continues to compete in terms of image quality with these lower-end full-frame sensors, Pentax will continue to focus solely on the APS-C image sensor (their current lens lineup suggests the same). Of course, this strategy strongly suggests a new Pentax DSLR above the K10D will be aimed squarely at the Canon EOS 5D, Nikon D300, and similar cameras.

stewart
Ten years down the line, if Canon/Nikon have entry level FF DSLRs selling at $400 and you have Pentax on APS-C format selling for around the same, what will the consumers choose?

Pentax wont release a FF camera this year but it has to plan to migrate to it to survive.
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