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08-13-2010, 01:10 AM   #16
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QuoteOriginally posted by Skullsroad Quote
I don't like this test. I just bought a K-7.

On a side note, the colors coming out of the K-7 look much better.
The K-7 is an incredible camera, and you will never notice any of this stuff unless you are zooming in to a high degree. I love mine, but will not deny the fact that the K200d/K10d sensor is superior in regards to detail/sharpness. Check the non-cropped images. The K-7's shots look nice and sharp.... perfectly fine.

08-13-2010, 01:16 AM   #17
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Could it be the matter of the 14mp sensor outresolving the lens? Or the recently published SR induced blur of the K-7
08-13-2010, 01:21 AM   #18
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QuoteOriginally posted by GrinMode Quote
Could it be the matter of the 14mp sensor outresolving the lens? Or the recently published SR induced blur of the K-7
Maybe.... though I severally doubt it.

And SR was off for both camera's because I used a tripod.
08-13-2010, 03:42 AM   #19
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I am really trying to curb my remarks about the k-7. I have one, and the k-20 and the k-x.

My personal views on the k-7.
This is the way I explain it to people who ask me. Only my opionion guys.

You see a Corvet in the show room, So you buy it. What a thrill. You drive it for a while and think this thing is reall running bad. You pop the hood and find a VW engine in it. The k-7

You go out and buy a Volkswagon, and damn the thing is running like a spotted ape. You pop the hood and find the dealer put in the Corvet engine in it. The K-x

I really think the Pentax is going to change with the next round of DSLR's. I personally really like the design and the in body IS. I think it is an award winning combo. Now they just need to fix the sensor. After that Pentax will have the respect it deserves. In the prosummer market. The K-x is already the best starter DSLR on the market.

I hope they also expand to the pro level. Then it is a shoe in for pentax. In my opionion only. It is the small persentage of pro's and semi pros who give the products like Canon and Nikon such a good name, and very good advertising for them.

My fingers are crossed.....


Last edited by gary1952; 08-13-2010 at 03:51 AM.
08-13-2010, 03:59 AM   #20
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QuoteOriginally posted by gary1952 Quote
You see a Corvet in the show room, So you buy it. What a thrill. You drive it for a while and think this thing is reall running bad. You pop the hood and find a VW engine in it. The k-7

You go out and buy a Volkswagon, and damn the thing is running like a spotted ape. You pop the hood and find the dealer put in the Corvet engine in it. The K-x

HAHAHAHAHAAAAA!

That's a hilarious illustration. Most likely true though(I don't own a K-7).
So what you're saying is... "someone" mixed up the sensors during early production.

I reaaaaaaly hope Pentax is getting their dope straight this year because I'm set to move on. I don't want too, but... my shooting styles are moving me into new directions and the current Pentax flagship just isn't up to the task.
08-13-2010, 04:17 AM   #21
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QuoteOriginally posted by Skullsroad Quote
I don't like this test. I just bought a K-7.

On a side note, the colors coming out of the K-7 look much better.
When I saw this, I though, oh no, another reason for feeling disappointed (I own a K200). In fact, I am feeling better. While the K-7 undoubtably has more features, the IQ of the K200 is still good.

Personally I think the K200 is under-rated (a true sleeper)
08-13-2010, 04:18 AM   #22
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I never owned a K200, but I did own a K10 (same sensor). At iso 100, that sensor is amazing. Really does give great results. The problem for me was that it really dropped off fast as you got over iso 400 and I could hardly use it over iso 800. I am sure the K7 sequel will be better in some ways than the K7, but I very much doubt that it will beat the low iso shooting of the K10/200/2000 sensor.
08-13-2010, 04:55 AM - 1 Like   #23
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I think, honestly, that the difference in sharpness is marginal. The difference in contrast is much more important, and leads you to believe sharpness is strongly different.

It mainly shows that the sensors deliver different results, and that the engineers at Pentax tweaked them differently. By appying less contrast on the K7's sensor, they probably improve the noise figures. Or it's just a choice they made, "because"... or whatever.

I wouldn't obsess about it. To get a more realistic "real life" comparison, the best way to proceed would be to set the camera exactly the way you plan on using it (tweaking everything to your taste) THEN compare results. You'll see which performs more to your liking.

08-13-2010, 06:01 AM   #24
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Basically it is a CMOS vs CCD comparison. Give me CMOS anyday, the K-7 delivers more accurate colors, better WB and better exposure.
08-13-2010, 11:51 AM - 2 Likes   #25
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A couple of observations:

- The main purpose of an AA filter is to reduce moire. So if the AA filter is the reason the K-7 appears to be giving softer images, that's probably the *reason* it was designed that way.

- Just because both cameras had their options set to the same place doens't really mean that literally the same processing was applied to each. They are different cameras with different sensors, and it's quite possible that while an effort was made to produce "similar" results with similar settings, pixel peeping might well expose differences. I could see this being true especially with respect to sharpening, since the resolutions differ. Even with UFRAW, it would still be the case that processing would be different for the different cameras (although not to the same extent), so again, even with settings the same, that doesn't mean the images should be expected to come out exactly the same.

- Color differences don't tend to impress me, as that's also largely just an image processing difference.

- The K200D and K10D are similar but different. Same sensor, but not sure about the AA filter, and the A/D hardware and image processing are *definitely* different. K200D definitely performs quite a bit better at high ISO due to the A/D and image processing differences. Not sure about the AA filter, but since the K200D already pleases you, I wouldn't be in too big a hurry to get a K10D and potentially find it no better in sharpness but definitely a step back in noise. If you're really wanting the better viewfinder and control system, I'd consider the K20D first.

- There's basically no way one can generalize to say CMOS produces better color, WB, or especially exposure. Exposure, after all, is a function of the meter, not the sensor, and to the extent one might really be talking about the way the dynamic range maps, that's really a function of the pre-processing curves applied during demosaicing. Similar story for WB. Color overall is subjective, but hard to consider independently from whatever the camera does with demosaicing and WB.

Last edited by Marc Sabatella; 08-13-2010 at 06:55 PM.
08-13-2010, 12:14 PM   #26
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QuoteOriginally posted by gary1952 Quote
I am really trying to curb my remarks about the k-7. I have one, and the k-20 and the k-x.

My personal views on the k-7.
This is the way I explain it to people who ask me. Only my opionion guys.

You see a Corvet in the show room, So you buy it. What a thrill. You drive it for a while and think this thing is reall running bad. You pop the hood and find a VW engine in it. The k-7

You go out and buy a Volkswagon, and damn the thing is running like a spotted ape. You pop the hood and find the dealer put in the Corvet engine in it. The K-x

I really think the Pentax is going to change with the next round of DSLR's. I personally really like the design and the in body IS. I think it is an award winning combo. Now they just need to fix the sensor. After that Pentax will have the respect it deserves. In the prosummer market. The K-x is already the best starter DSLR on the market.

I hope they also expand to the pro level. Then it is a shoe in for pentax. In my opionion only. It is the small persentage of pro's and semi pros who give the products like Canon and Nikon such a good name, and very good advertising for them.

My fingers are crossed.....
Ha, very interesting analogy! What people need to realize is the K-7's IQ is beast, but at low low low ISO (in this case ISO 100) the K10d/K200d sensor is better (IMO). I mean check out my images with the K-7 on my flickr.... all sharp (unless they weren't meant to be).

QuoteOriginally posted by Timd Quote
When I saw this, I though, oh no, another reason for feeling disappointed (I own a K200). In fact, I am feeling better. While the K-7 undoubtably has more features, the IQ of the K200 is still good.

Personally I think the K200 is under-rated (a true sleeper)
The K200d will ALWAYS hold a place in my heart. Its the very first camera I have ever owned. Its also given me my favorite images thus far.

I do think the K-7 is a fantastic upgrade from the K200d though, and definitely worth a look.

QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
I never owned a K200, but I did own a K10 (same sensor). At iso 100, that sensor is amazing. Really does give great results. The problem for me was that it really dropped off fast as you got over iso 400 and I could hardly use it over iso 800. I am sure the K7 sequel will be better in some ways than the K7, but I very much doubt that it will beat the low iso shooting of the K10/200/2000 sensor.
Yes, these were taken at ISO 100... and I tend to agree with you. Im really craving the IQ of the Cn 5d mark II for macro work right now. Lord V can crop the hell out of those images and yet still get sharper images that I do with the K-7 :ugh:

QuoteOriginally posted by bdery Quote
I think, honestly, that the difference in sharpness is marginal. The difference in contrast is much more important, and leads you to believe sharpness is strongly different.

It mainly shows that the sensors deliver different results, and that the engineers at Pentax tweaked them differently. By appying less contrast on the K7's sensor, they probably improve the noise figures. Or it's just a choice they made, "because"... or whatever.

I wouldn't obsess about it. To get a more realistic "real life" comparison, the best way to proceed would be to set the camera exactly the way you plan on using it (tweaking everything to your taste) THEN compare results. You'll see which performs more to your liking.
I'd say its a mixture of both contrast and fine sharpness.... both non-marginal IMO. The K200d does have more fine sharpness from what I can see for sure.

Im by no means obsessing about it, its just a little nagging thing I wanted to finally try and post here. The camera's are basically how I like them already, so from SOC Jpeg's/RAW's I prefer the k200d based off of these images. PP makes this not a big deal, even with my rudimentary skills in gimp (curves, USM, saturation, done). The K-7 is a vastly superior camera and enables me to get the shots the K200d would never, but pure IQ at low ISO (where I shoot macro's) the K200d beats the k-7.

QuoteOriginally posted by creampuff Quote
Basically it is a CMOS vs CCD comparison. Give me CMOS anyday, the K-7 delivers more accurate colors, better WB and better exposure.
All (well almost all) can be EASILY fixed in PP.
-------------------------------------------------------

For the record:
#1 - I hate the AWB of the K-7. In daylight it is terrible. When I am shooting in crazy hard conditions (bar with multicolored different type of lights) the K-7 is incredibly good..... but I almost never shoot in those conditions so the fact that the K-7 struggles with normal situations sucks.

#2 - Both the K-7 and K200d are not good in my eyes at ISO 400. In my mind they should both be better. Yes I have never shot film, so no I do not know how much grain there was :ugh:
08-13-2010, 01:21 PM   #27
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QuoteOriginally posted by yeatzee:
For the record:
#1 - I hate the AWB of the K-7. In daylight it is terrible. When I am shooting in crazy hard conditions (bar with multicolored different type of lights) the K-7 is incredibly good..... but I almost never shoot in those conditions so the fact that the K-7 struggles with normal situations sucks.
This is very unusual. It's generally considered the K-7 has about the best AWB available to date. This has been my experience, although I don't shoot AWB much now (and shoot RAW anyway). It consistently was a lot better than the Nikons I've used, and major upgrade on K10D AWB.

If you put it on 'daylight' setting, does that WB look right to you, or do you refer warmer or colder?
08-13-2010, 01:38 PM   #28
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QuoteOriginally posted by CWyatt Quote
This is very unusual. It's generally considered the K-7 has about the best AWB available to date. This has been my experience, although I don't shoot AWB much now (and shoot RAW anyway). It consistently was a lot better than the Nikons I've used, and major upgrade on K10D AWB.

If you put it on 'daylight' setting, does that WB look right to you, or do you refer warmer or colder?
It never seems to get it right.... I have to use daylight WB because its the closest to normal, and edit it later if its not acceptable.

Like I said, anything other than daylight and its fantastic.
08-13-2010, 06:57 PM   #29
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As I recall, the K-7 has an option that controls how hard it tries to remove color casts. If you set it to the more aggressive setting so that you get more neutral results in tungsten light (for example), it may also cause the camera to too hard to remove the color from scenes where it wasn't needed or desired.
08-13-2010, 07:53 PM   #30
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QuoteOriginally posted by Marc Sabatella Quote
As I recall, the K-7 has an option that controls how hard it tries to remove color casts. If you set it to the more aggressive setting so that you get more neutral results in tungsten light (for example), it may also cause the camera to too hard to remove the color from scenes where it wasn't needed or desired.
I have it on the lowest setting for that.
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