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08-13-2010, 08:14 PM   #31
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QuoteOriginally posted by yeatzee Quote
It never seems to get it right.... I have to use daylight WB because its the closest to normal, and edit it later if its not acceptable.

Like I said, anything other than daylight and its fantastic.
Go to DP Review or pretty much any review site and peruse the camera body reviews.

They ALL complain about the white balance, on almost ALL models, with the "thank goodness for RAW" caveat.

And WB is brutally hard these days because there are so many types of light,often in a single shot.

I had the K200D and had WB problems, especially indoors under artificial light. It's a major reason why I shoot RAW.

08-13-2010, 08:59 PM   #32
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I don't mind the issue all camera's have indoors with artificial lights because RAW makes it an easy fix. What I do mind, is how my K-7 needs RAW correction for normal outdoor shots meaning way more editing time than necessary.

Like I said, I rarely shoot in trying WB conditions... but I do shoot in normal daylight every single day.
08-14-2010, 12:37 AM   #33
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QuoteOriginally posted by yeatzee Quote
Yes I did, but he said "AF using live view." And no I assure you it is not out of focus, it is just softer.
You used a different method of focus for the two tests. One apparently used the camera's AF system to assist with focus (even though AF did not turn the focus ring) and the other used a focus screen with aids. That would seem to be a variable. You are comparing two images at such a fine level that the smallest differences in focus between the two images (both of which might be considered "in focus" for most purposes) could make a difference. FWIW, my images using manual focus with screen aids are my sharpest.

Last edited by GeneV; 08-14-2010 at 01:27 AM.
08-14-2010, 01:35 AM   #34
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QuoteOriginally posted by GeneV Quote
You used a different method of focus for the two tests. One apparently used the camera's AF system to assist with focus (even though AF did not turn the focus ring) and the other used a focus screen with aids. That would seem to be a variable. You are comparing two images at such a fine level that the smallest differences in focus between the two images (both of which might be considered "in focus" for most purposes) could make a difference. FWIW, my images using manual focus with screen aids are my sharpest.
Well, im not sure how using liveview would make my images some how softer :ugh:

How else could i accurately get the EXACT same focus for two different camera's than focusing one and using liveview on the other to mimick its focus? And again, I assure you the K-7's are in focus.

08-14-2010, 08:21 AM   #35
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QuoteOriginally posted by yeatzee Quote
Well, im not sure how using liveview would make my images some how softer :ugh:

How else could i accurately get the EXACT same focus for two different camera's than focusing one and using liveview on the other to mimick its focus? And again, I assure you the K-7's are in focus.
You haven't described in detail how you are using LV to assist you with the focus, but I am assuming (rightly or wrongly) from what I read that you are using focus confirm of some sort which the camera indicates using the AF system. That would not really mimic a screen focus aid. Here are just some of the variables inherent in using the camera AF system in manual mode:

1. It is a well documented phenomenon that the AF points indicated in the viewfinder are not nearly as precise as the point of focus determined from the focus screen, especially using focus aids. I don't know how much better or worse the focus in LV is in this regard than the viewfinder dot system.

2. The focus assist in viewfinder systems often produces slightly inaccurate results because the indicator will indicate "in focus" through a minute but noticeable turn on the focus ring. When the subject is viewed through the focus aids, I have noticed that the confirm light will remain on even though the split image has gone past the optimum point of focus.

3. AF systems vary in accuracy.

I don't know whether your images are in different focus compared to one another. However, I don't think you can "assure" that they are both in exactly the same focus precisely enough for this comparison either, using two different focus techniques.

I have never tried to compare the sensors of two cameras. For lenses, I take multiple photos, refocusing each time, and pick the best. I have been amazed at how different one of five exposures of the same shot taken on a tripod can be from the others when viewed at high magnification ratios, especially if the subject is fairly close.

Without a well calibrated focus screen in each camera, used exactly the same way multiple times, I would not feel I had a true test of the sensor, and not some other system or technique.

Last edited by GeneV; 08-14-2010 at 08:28 AM.
08-14-2010, 09:32 AM   #36
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I didn't even know there was a focus "alert" system for liveview like there is for the VF

I apologize, I didn't realize there would be a shadow of a doubt that I didn't use 10x magnification using liveview to get the focus exactly perfect, trying several times and comparing on the computer to pick the perfect one.

If you want to focus right in LV, doesn't everybody use the magnify feature???


Last edited by yeatzee; 08-14-2010 at 09:54 AM.
08-14-2010, 10:23 AM   #37
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QuoteOriginally posted by yeatzee Quote
I didn't even know there was a focus "alert" system for liveview like there is for the VF

I apologize, I didn't realize there would be a shadow of a doubt that I didn't use 10x magnification using liveview to get the focus exactly perfect, trying several times and comparing on the computer to pick the perfect one.

If you want to focus right in LV, doesn't everybody use the magnify feature???

There is a shadow of a doubt because you did not say that until this post.

After looking at the manual, it appears that the focus confirm (green square) in LV does not work with MF lenses. I don't use LV for manual lenses, because I am an old f--t who prefers the focus on the screen and finds LV slow and cumbersome.

However, using two methods of focus still introduces a variable into the equation, though it is by no means as severe an issue as using focus confirm from the AF system.
08-14-2010, 10:44 AM   #38
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Based off of my images and post I thought people would realize I was serious about this, and not just posting a couple of images of which I took little care to prepare.

But than I realize how many people post "comparisons" and such without taking the time to get it right.

If anyone knows how I could possibly focus EXACTLY NO QUESTION the same please do tell, because using my method is the best I could possibly come up with.

--------------------------------------

I only use liveview with my F/1.2 lens, simply because I have not put a split prism focusing screen in the K-7 due to: it blocking my view of my macro subjects, and because I use spot metering once in a while.

08-14-2010, 01:34 PM   #39
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QuoteOriginally posted by yeatzee Quote
Based off of my images and post I thought people would realize I was serious about this, and not just posting a couple of images of which I took little care to prepare.

But than I realize how many people post "comparisons" and such without taking the time to get it right.

If anyone knows how I could possibly focus EXACTLY NO QUESTION the same please do tell, because using my method is the best I could possibly come up with.

--------------------------------------

I only use liveview with my F/1.2 lens, simply because I have not put a split prism focusing screen in the K-7 due to: it blocking my view of my macro subjects, and because I use spot metering once in a while.
Understood. Please understand that comments on variables or other factors which may be affecting the results are in no way intended to take away from the effort or the care with which you have approached this. And the result you presented is interesting and thought provoking. I just wouldn't run out and trade a K-7 in for a K10d based upon it.

Testing is tough. I dont see a way to remove the focus variable given the cameras you have.

I mention this after years of trying to come up with meaningful tests that one can perform at home, and often being unsatisfied with my own efforts.
08-14-2010, 01:45 PM   #40
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QuoteOriginally posted by yeatzee Quote
Based off of my images and post I thought people would realize I was serious about this, and not just posting a couple of images of which I took little care to prepare.

But than I realize how many people post "comparisons" and such without taking the time to get it right.

If anyone knows how I could possibly focus EXACTLY NO QUESTION the same please do tell, because using my method is the best I could possibly come up with.

--------------------------------------

I only use liveview with my F/1.2 lens, simply because I have not put a split prism focusing screen in the K-7 due to: it blocking my view of my macro subjects, and because I use spot metering once in a while.
For more credibility about attempting to determine the apparent sharpness difference between two sensors, I would expect someone to use an aperture smaller than F1.2 or F2. I would put the lens at a sweet spot for APS-C sensors, F5.6 or F8...this also gives you more DOF so there is less discussion about focus errors on the subject.

I also have a K200D and K-7. For what it's worth, I think the default processing in the K200D gives it slightly more contrast (and maybe appears sharper), but I can definitely get slightly more detail out of my K-7 due to the extra MPs. This of course only applies when the lens can produce additional details.

I would suggest choosing another subject and shooting at F5.6 of F8...and make sure to avoid 1/80" or 1/125" on the K-7 so you don't get the infamous shutter-induced blur.

Hope this helps!
08-14-2010, 01:49 PM   #41
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I had a K100DS before, and incidentally I also thought the K-7s images were not as sharp as they could be. Then I noticed the development settings. By default, sharpness is at -1. Now I know you're going to say this does not apply to RAW files and you're right. But, the settings do get stored in the RAW file, so any RAW converter might pick them up and use them to display the file.
08-14-2010, 02:34 PM   #42
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QuoteOriginally posted by arpaagent Quote
For more credibility about attempting to determine the apparent sharpness difference between two sensors, I would expect someone to use an aperture smaller than F1.2 or F2. I would put the lens at a sweet spot for APS-C sensors, F5.6 or F8...this also gives you more DOF so there is less discussion about focus errors on the subject.

I also have a K200D and K-7. For what it's worth, I think the default processing in the K200D gives it slightly more contrast (and maybe appears sharper), but I can definitely get slightly more detail out of my K-7 due to the extra MPs. This of course only applies when the lens can produce additional details.

I would suggest choosing another subject and shooting at F5.6 of F8...and make sure to avoid 1/80" or 1/125" on the K-7 so you don't get the infamous shutter-induced blur.

Hope this helps!
Those sound like excellent suggestions.
08-14-2010, 03:25 PM   #43
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QuoteOriginally posted by GeneV Quote
Understood. Please understand that comments on variables or other factors which may be affecting the results are in no way intended to take away from the effort or the care with which you have approached this. And the result you presented is interesting and thought provoking. I just wouldn't run out and trade a K-7 in for a K10d based upon it.

Testing is tough. I dont see a way to remove the focus variable given the cameras you have.

I mention this after years of trying to come up with meaningful tests that one can perform at home, and often being unsatisfied with my own efforts.
Im not trading my K-7 in for anything (except maybe the K-7 replacement ) It just makes me want to go out and get a K10d and possibly sell the K200d for the better viewfinder for manual glass shooting and the K-7 gets everything else.

QuoteOriginally posted by arpaagent Quote
For more credibility about attempting to determine the apparent sharpness difference between two sensors, I would expect someone to use an aperture smaller than F1.2 or F2. I would put the lens at a sweet spot for APS-C sensors, F5.6 or F8...this also gives you more DOF so there is less discussion about focus errors on the subject.

I also have a K200D and K-7. For what it's worth, I think the default processing in the K200D gives it slightly more contrast (and maybe appears sharper), but I can definitely get slightly more detail out of my K-7 due to the extra MPs. This of course only applies when the lens can produce additional details.

I would suggest choosing another subject and shooting at F5.6 of F8...and make sure to avoid 1/80" or 1/125" on the K-7 so you don't get the infamous shutter-induced blur.

Hope this helps!
I used these apertures because its the lens at its softest... I guess my thought process was that they will show the greatest difference between the sensors. I will try the test again at F/5.6 though to be thurough

Now the main problem... what subject? I picked the old leaf because it has a lot of texture and small details. What would be better that I could find/have laying around?

QuoteOriginally posted by starbase218 Quote
I had a K100DS before, and incidentally I also thought the K-7s images were not as sharp as they could be. Then I noticed the development settings. By default, sharpness is at -1. Now I know you're going to say this does not apply to RAW files and you're right. But, the settings do get stored in the RAW file, so any RAW converter might pick them up and use them to display the file.
The sharpness on my K-7 and K200d for Jpeg's is at +1 I believe (not near either right now).
08-14-2010, 05:35 PM   #44
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The K10d is my favorite body for manual glass, but I don't own the K200d. With the split image screen, manual glass really sings on the K10d. My favorite is the classic SMC K 135/ 2.5 on this body.

However, Marc posts so many amazing images from his K200d with manual glass, that I am not sure I'd dump the K200d for a K10d for the finder, unless it is really not working well for you.
08-14-2010, 11:49 PM   #45
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QuoteOriginally posted by arpaagent Quote

I also have a K200D and K-7. For what it's worth, I think the default processing in the K200D gives it slightly more contrast (and maybe appears sharper), but I can definitely get slightly more detail out of my K-7 due to the extra MPs. This of course only applies when the lens can produce additional details.
Hope this helps!
Thanks for that !, makes me appreciate my k200D all the more as over here a K-7 is a whole lot more $$.
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