Forgot Password
Pentax Camera Forums Home
 

Reply
Show Printable Version Search this Thread
08-29-2010, 11:02 PM - 1 Like   #1
Site Supporter
Clinton's Avatar

Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Salt Lake City, UT
Photos: Gallery | Albums
Posts: 1,800
Hopes for the future? Pentax full frame (ff), K-5, and lenses

I hope this post does find it's way into the hands of someone at Pentax.

Why is it we all find our way to Pentax? Why is it that we continue shooting Pentax?

I think it's because we have superior glass at a reasonable price. Not just old glass, but new DA* glass that is cheaper than the competition becuase it doesn't have to contain optical stabilization.

Pentax is renound for their superior FA Limited, DA Limited, FA* and DA* lenses, not to mention a few A* primes. We have access to glass that costs 75% or 50% of the competition's glass, and (on the whole) has superior optics.

The sensors in our bodies are going through incremental, if not generational changes. I'd say it's likely I'll buy a K-5 for it's higher ISO performance, assuming it outperforms the K-7.

However, this incremental change just isn't going to go far enough. We really want to hear from you that a full frame camera is on the way, even if the news is simply we'll have a full frame body sometime in the next year.

Not all of us will buy a full frame camera, but we want to know the option will be available to us, before we continue to invest money in lenses.

Which brings us to the lenses. There's a few holes in your current line up we'd like to see filled back in over the next few years, especially if we're looking to full frame in the next year.

For the more common lens, I believe it would be safe to say we want a remake of the A* 135/1.8, the FA* 85mm/1.4, and the A50/1.2 (all weather sealed), as well as weather sealed FA 31mm/1.8 prime, and a weather sealed 15mm/2.8. Primes across this range would give us access to glass that would leave our Cannon and Nikon friends drooling. Obviously we'll also need a 80-200mm/2.8 zoom for full frame.

For the high end lenses, I think we need access to a 250-600mm zoom, a 200mm macro, and a 400mm f2.8 (weather sealed as well). I suspect that we would be happy with a process by which we order these lenses, and they are then assembled and shipped to us. Obviously these are not going to be sold in droves, but those of us investing in Pentax equipment want the ability to procure these premium lenses if and when we need them, even if we simply have to plan ahead. I think that a 2 month process to procure these would not be out of line.

Finally, we have to have some mechanism to bridge our DA* glass to a full frame body. We already know that some of our glass is simply not going to translate, for example the DA* 16-50. To this end, I suggest a way to kill two birds with one stone: a 1.5x weather sealed teleconverter with SDM and screw driven autofocus. Most of us want one right now, and I expect that this would enable DA* glass that will not fill a full frame sensor normally to project light on a full frame sensor. I also feel it would be useful, for a FF camera to provide a user settable crop setting that is remembered per lens.

Do we need to know all right now? No, but we do need to know something is coming relatively soon, and from what appears to have been leaked, we're concerned that there will be no forthcoming news of full frame and full frame lens equipment at Photokina.

You've been doing a fantastic job of keeping the wraps on your development, but the quiet is making us concerned about our combined future.

08-29-2010, 11:07 PM   #2
Site Supporter
Clinton's Avatar

Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Salt Lake City, UT
Photos: Gallery | Albums
Posts: 1,800
Original Poster
Or tell us you have no intention of producing a full frame body, and that you're going to give full frame imagery a run for it's money on APS-C.

At that point, I might start considering a 645D, assuming we see some substantial additional lenses on that front.
08-30-2010, 12:08 AM   #3
Pentaxian
Miguel's Avatar

Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Near Seattle
Photos: Gallery
Posts: 2,700
Clinton,
Nice plea, but FF ainít gonna happen this year, probably not next year either. I hope Iím wrong, but it may never happen unless someone big and aggressive purchases the brand.

QuoteOriginally posted by Clinton Quote
Or tell us you have no intention of producing a full frame body, and that you're going to give full frame imagery a run for it's money on APS-C.

[deleted]
I donít know any manufacturers who publicly declare ahead of time their strategic marketing plans. They may talk vision and the usual hooha but thatís just puffery. Anyway, Pentax has told us by releasing the 645D. That camera is about as professional a product that Pentax will release in the coming years.

The brandís budget and resources are just not expansive enough to support going FF at this time. The FF market is dominated by the big two. Sony is big enough to absorb the hit of market presence as a brand positioning move.

There are simply not enough existing Pentax customers (regardless of this forumís popularity) or dissatisfied Nikon/Canon switchers to warrant the massive manufacturing engineering and tooling changes, marketing expenses, retail supply chain development, IT systems development and procurement, and staff ramp up to successfully compete with a modern FF camera and lenses.

Historically Pentax has been known for two key market attributes: small, high quality SLRs and lenses; and comprehensive medium format systems. They are fulfilling the former with the APS-C line of products (especially the newest small bodies with high performance features for general shooters) and only now making a profit.

I think the proposed FF lenses you called out are spot on, but integrating a APS-C lens lineup with an active FF lineup is both risky and expensive. As someone who just added a Canon 7D to my working kit (Pentax is still there), I see that the Canon DSLR lens lineup is strategically oriented to the FF shooter. Relatively few EF-S (1.6x) lenses are highly regarded. By having the top L-lenses designed for FF, Canon is explicitly pushing their customers to the pricey FF lines. I know I'm destined there sooner or later. Can you imagine Pentax doing that during the next two years with the lens lineup you proposed?

The latter medium format market they are attempting to reclaim with the 645D; Iím sure itís a wonderful camera, but I am curious who the target audiences are. Aiming the 645D at a global vanity market is a smart and low-risk way to recoup initial R&D, and manufacturing expenses. But I don't think it's sustainable.

Perhaps over time the success of the 645D will enable Pentax to afford to properly introduce the camera to NA and EMEA. What that means is costly development of a retail sales network and the professional support services worthy of a $12,000 tool. Unfortunately, with each passing week, the number of current or recent Pentax medium format film users who would blindly transition to a 645D diminishes. They are either purchasing competing products (Mamiya, Hasselblad, FF cameras), staying with film, or passing away (I donít mean that facetiously).

Again, I hope I'm wrong.

M
08-30-2010, 01:32 AM - 2 Likes   #4
Veteran Member
Jasvox's Avatar

Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Posts: 3,110
Pentax has been saying for years there is no digital FF model in the plans, why doesn't anyone actually believe this instead of holding on to some silly dream there is a secret FF body Pentax will launch by surprise? With all the other things on your wish list, why dont you just save yourself the agony of waiting and hoping and just buy into a system which has this already? With the forum marketplace and Ebay, etc, you shouldn't have any trouble getting a fair price for what you already have and pickup what it is you expect unlikely from Pentax.

Jason

08-30-2010, 07:18 AM   #5
Veteran Member
alohadave's Avatar

Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Quincy, MA
Photos: Gallery | Albums
Posts: 2,024
QuoteOriginally posted by Jasvox Quote
Pentax has been saying for years there is no digital FF model in the plans, why doesn't anyone actually believe this instead of holding on to some silly dream there is a secret FF body Pentax will launch by surprise? With all the other things on your wish list, why dont you just save yourself the agony of waiting and hoping and just buy into a system which has this already? With the forum marketplace and Ebay, etc, you shouldn't have any trouble getting a fair price for what you already have and pickup what it is you expect unlikely from Pentax.

Jason
hehehe really. Look how long it took to get the 645D out and it was 'known' for years.
08-30-2010, 07:30 AM   #6
Site Supporter
Clinton's Avatar

Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Salt Lake City, UT
Photos: Gallery | Albums
Posts: 1,800
Original Poster
QuoteOriginally posted by Jasvox Quote
With all the other things on your wish list, why dont you just save yourself the agony of waiting and hoping and just buy into a system which has this already?
You really hit the nail on the head here. Even if I don't go full frame, most of what I mentioned is available, albeit at a (generally) lesser quality from a competitor.

It's why people are leaving this brand and heading to the other brands out there.

In the meantime, the gaps that have been filled in by 3rd party lenses (Sigma and Tamron) are being produced less and less; although honestly I don't want to shoot with 3rd party glass anyway. I'd prefer these holes to be filled by high quality Pentax glass.
08-30-2010, 07:37 AM   #7
Site Supporter
Clinton's Avatar

Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Salt Lake City, UT
Photos: Gallery | Albums
Posts: 1,800
Original Poster
QuoteOriginally posted by Miguel Quote
Clinton,
Nice plea, but FF ainít gonna happen this year, probably not next year either. I hope Iím wrong, but it may never happen unless someone big and aggressive purchases the brand.
And wants to continue our mount. This is another substantial concern I have. Does a Sony or (insert brand here) come in and buy Pentax for their technology and shut down the K mount?

I'm not convinced that Hoya will want to sell Pentax with as well as the K-x is doing, but that's really wandering off into another topic deserving of another thread.
08-30-2010, 07:42 AM   #8
Pentaxian
Mike.Pģ's Avatar

Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: South Coast .. UK
Photos: Gallery
Posts: 1,734
QuoteOriginally posted by Clinton Quote

Why is it we all find our way to Pentax?

Why is it that we continue shooting Pentax?
Why is it we have to have post after post asking for FF?

08-30-2010, 04:38 PM   #9
Site Supporter
Clinton's Avatar

Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Salt Lake City, UT
Photos: Gallery | Albums
Posts: 1,800
Original Poster
QuoteOriginally posted by Mike.Pģ Quote
Why is it we have to have post after post asking for FF?
I guess people want the quality of megapixels and high ISO that it can provide, but my concerns here are more than just FF.

The lenses we can purchase are diminishing. a 85/1.4 lens shouldn't be rare, I should be able to hop out on Amazon and order one right now.

More and more Pentax shooters are leaving the brand to full frame, others cant get all the gear they want from the Pentax brand.

New shooters are being pulled in by really great features at a substantially lower price, but that's only good enough until they're ready to move to better gear, and currently, there's not a migration strategy for them. They can hunt for used lenses, or they can switch to a different platform. Neither option is a great one.
08-30-2010, 05:14 PM   #10
Pentaxian
Miguel's Avatar

Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Near Seattle
Photos: Gallery
Posts: 2,700
QuoteOriginally posted by Clinton Quote
[deleted]
More and more Pentax shooters are leaving the brand to full frame, others cant get all the gear they want from the Pentax brand.
[deleted]
I would think that the number of folks leaving the brand is dwarfed by the number of owners of the K-X who are new to the brand. Entry-level (and I'm not using "entry-level" technically because they perform well) cameras, including the colorful bodies, seems to be the core of Pentax success and energy (besides the 645D) these days.

That's why we're not gonna get a 400mm lens, or anything faster than f2.8 (the DA* 55mm f1.4 didn't exactly knock too many socks off) for a long while. They're leaving the long, fast, and pricey glass to the other guys with an upgrade path. The DA Limiteds and the DA* models generally are more than enough for most mortals anyway.

It's similar to Olympus, who I suppose will informally retire the 4/3 platform with their next DSLR release (which has been in the pipeline too long to ditch) because their future is linked to micro 4/3rds.

For what it is and is not, Pentax is just fine with me.

M
08-30-2010, 05:16 PM   #11
Pentaxian
PŚl Jensen's Avatar

Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Norway
Photos: Albums
Posts: 3,064
QuoteOriginally posted by Clinton Quote
For the more common lens, I believe it would be safe to say we want a remake of the A* 135/1.8, the FA* 85mm/1.4, and the A50/1.2 (all weather sealed), as well as weather sealed FA 31mm/1.8 prime, and a weather sealed 15mm/2.8. Primes across this range would give us access to glass that would leave our Cannon and Nikon friends drooling. Obviously we'll also need a 80-200mm/2.8 zoom for full frame.

For the high end lenses, I think we need access to a 250-600mm zoom, a 200mm macro, and a 400mm f2.8 (weather sealed as well)..
These lenses won't happen; at least most of them won't. A D-FA* 135/1.8 will cost in excess of $2000. The D-FA* 85/1.4 will cost around $1500 at least. A D_FA*15/2.8 will be huge and cost a fortune due to its speed which isn't needed in a 15mm lens anyway, particularly with the iSO performance we have nowadays; use the A 15/3.5 as a guide for size and price.
A 400/2.8 is pointless in todays world; they sold very few in the film days and ever fewer now. When max ISO was 200 they had a mission in spite of tye fcat that the lack of DOF wide open was a problem. Drawback is size and cost; a Pentax one would cost at least $8000; probably even 10000$. Hence they could sell perhaps ten in a decade.
In my opinion, anything longer than a 500/4 makes little sense anymore. With high mp APS sensor and good converters, the extra cost and weight and general hassle of a 600/4 isn't worth it.
08-30-2010, 06:01 PM   #12
Veteran Member




Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: NYC
Photos: Gallery
Posts: 1,071
QuoteOriginally posted by Clinton Quote
We have access to glass that costs 75% or 50% of the competition's glass, and (on the whole) has superior optics.
No, we don't. What competition are you referring to? Sony?

Have you thought of writing to Pentax instead of complaining about this on the forums? There's a higher chance of someone from Pentax actually reading it and frankly, I think I'm speaking on behalf of a lot of folks here that we've really grown tired of the countless FF threads.
08-30-2010, 06:56 PM   #13
Veteran Member
mysticcowboy's Avatar

Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: port townsend, wa
Photos: Albums
Posts: 968
Clinton, you say several times that lots of Pentax shooters are leaving the brand for FF. What's your source? Is this amongst your crowd? Are you quoting a survey or magazine? Is this just your frustration speaking? How about gear lust?
08-30-2010, 07:30 PM   #14
Site Supporter
Clinton's Avatar

Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Salt Lake City, UT
Photos: Gallery | Albums
Posts: 1,800
Original Poster
QuoteOriginally posted by mysticcowboy Quote
Clinton, you say several times that lots of Pentax shooters are leaving the brand for FF. What's your source? Is this amongst your crowd? Are you quoting a survey or magazine? Is this just your frustration speaking? How about gear lust?
Every other week I see another shooter here in the forums / marketplace announce they're leaving Pentax for FF, or that they're selling most of their lenses because they're already shooting FF.

I expect this is less substantial than the number of people buying K-xs, but some of my point is that those whom progress to more serious gear will have substantial trouble getting more serious glass. That's bad for the brand, and it's bad for the shooters, although I suppose it's good for me and the price of my FA* 85/1.4 who's price seems to just keep going up.
08-30-2010, 07:46 PM   #15
Site Supporter
Clinton's Avatar

Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Salt Lake City, UT
Photos: Gallery | Albums
Posts: 1,800
Original Poster
QuoteOriginally posted by hangu Quote
Have you thought of writing to Pentax instead of complaining about this on the forums? There's a higher chance of someone from Pentax actually reading it and frankly, I think I'm speaking on behalf of a lot of folks here that we've really grown tired of the countless FF threads.
I don't believe I'm complaining anywhere. I do start out on "Hopes for the future".

FF is a large part of my message, a message that I don't feel anyone has conveyed in the "countless FF threads", but in fairness I haven't read to page 77 on a few of them.

I'm equally concerned about our glass options, perhaps even more so, if the K-5 performs well. I can go pick up a Nikon 200mm F4 macro on Amazon for $1700 brand new right now. If I had jumped on the only copy of the Pentax 200mm macro I've seen sold since Feb, it was $3500 used. the alternative, is the Sigma 180mm macro, which isn't extremely easy to come by, since Sigma isn't making this lens, and many other lenses, in our mount anymore.

This kind of thing is a turn off to people looking for gear, and more to the point, it's a substantial selling point for a competitors brand. We need more Pentax marketshare, not less.
Reply

Bookmarks
  • Submit Thread to Facebook Facebook
  • Submit Thread to Twitter Twitter
  • Submit Thread to Digg Digg
Tags - Make this thread easier to find by adding keywords to it!
access, camera, da*, dslr, frame, glass, lens, lenses, pentax, photography, sensor, weather
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
If Pentax goes full frame, will they promote 645 lenses to fill the lens gap? turbosaturn Pentax News and Rumors 17 07-10-2010 09:36 PM
Full Frame Lenses Taff Pentax SLR Lens Discussion 41 10-25-2009 01:00 AM
5 New Lenses of Pentax? Full Frame Back?? RiceHigh Pentax News and Rumors 180 05-31-2009 10:00 AM
Future laid out by Pentax -- no full-frame rparmar Pentax News and Rumors 158 10-23-2008 06:35 PM
Need more megapix? Future possibilities and no need for full frame! rburgoss Pentax DSLR Discussion 57 10-16-2008 03:16 PM



All times are GMT -7. The time now is 12:25 PM. | See also: NikonForums.com, part of our network of photo forums!
  • Red (Default)
  • Green
  • Gray
  • Dark
  • Dark Yellow
  • Dark Blue
  • Old Red
  • Old Green
  • Old Gray
  • Dial-Up Style
Hello! It's great to see you back on the forum! Have you considered joining the community?
register
Creating a FREE ACCOUNT takes under a minute, removes ads, and lets you post! [Dismiss]
Top