So much Negativity from Pentaxians

tigrebleu · 09-10-2010, 09:35 PM

Originally posted by aleonx3

The maximum aperture of DA 35mm limited is only f2.8; I don't judge the quality of lens by maximum aperture alone, it is the optical quality that matters the most.

If you were working in low light as often as I do, you'd trade a bit of quality for a faster aperture any time!

PentaxPoke · 09-10-2010, 09:53 PM

Originally posted by creampuff

I stand by my disappointment with the new DA 35mm f/2.4 notwithstanding the fact that there are no IQ tests done yet. Does Pentax need such a lens... most definitely, there is a pressing need to fill the gap for a cheap kit prime. I take the view that more lenses in the line-up are better for everyone, and I might buy one myself.

However I strongly feel Pentax has made the error of producing a lens that lacks a maximum aperture comparable to budget offerings from Nikon, Sony and Canon. Unfortunately we don't have a choice in the matter as we're all locked-in to the K-mount with our Pentax DSLRs. We may never know why they opted for f/2.4 but what a missed opportunity, so I'm calling it as it is.

I see plenty of frankly laughable remarks defending the new lens, some of which are pretty questionable if not condescending.
Sort of along the lines of:

- oh, it's for newbies, they don't need f/1.8 or f/2... they are better off with f/2.4 cause they can't handle the larger max aperture due to thin DOF and f/2.4 is good enough, and their pictures will be sharper...

- f/1.8 is soft... so you need to stop down for decent sharpness... so you're gonna shoot at f/2.4 or f/2.8 anyway... besides, I don't shoot at such wide apertures... so f/2.4 is good :ugh:

- high ISO takes away the need for a faster lens (bunkum)

Well I sincerely do hope this lens (when we can do the IQ tests) is stellar from f/2.4 onwards but there's no escaping the fact that lenses past and present, prime or zoom are never their sharpest at the maximum aperture. With even a half stop or a full stop difference in max aperture, it will have an effect on the range of apertures to shoot for maximum sharpness. Perhaps we forget the effect of the aperture - DOF, bokeh, viewfinder brightness, ability for the camera to lock focus in AF, ease of manual focusing, subject isolation, etc.

This lens will be a runaway hit... if only because of price, versatile focal length, (and color too) but prepare to see lots of snapshot kind of images coming your way soon.
It's all good when you shoot a Pentax, just don't ask for large maximum aperture budget lenses. In a way this lens is keeping with the recurring theme of most DA lenses... nothing faster than f/2.4...

Good points. I am floored by the decision as well. Especially considering that the FA35 f/2 was IMO one of the best non-Limited lens Pentax ever made. For example, compare the photozone tests of the 35 with the 31ltd. The 35 was amazing in sharpness all the way to the edges, even at f/2! The FA35 tests out better in sharpness than the new DA35 Limited! It was one of the few Pentax lenses that got the "Highly Recommended" rating. The FA35 also was going for around the same cost as this new DA, and it also was a FF lens. I will bet anyone here that the new DA35 will not test out as well in sharpness as the FA 35 f/2.

Makes no sense at all...

Boris · 09-11-2010, 05:19 AM

Originally posted by Ash

As above - we decide for ourselves whether the Pentax brand provides us with what we like, and if so we'd do well to support that. My own opinion on the 35/2.4 has no roots in fanboyism or obliged loyalty. It's perspective. I have little interest in the lens myself - I'm happy with the 31 ltd. But for what it is, I'm confident it will both do the job and satisfy the intended customers.

Ash, you're quite right. It is just that I don't dare put myself into the shoes of the intended customers for this lens. My view on this lens is that Pentax seems to have not innovated this time. It is really just yet another off the mill, so to say. The only new thing is that now you can have not only (double) kit lenses in colors but this specific prime as well. Again, even if I did not have all three FA limiteds etc, I would still say that this lens does not cut it. For me. I am surprised to read how people put together allegedly excellent high noise performance of K-x and slow aperture and say that this is cool. I honestly don't understand such reasoning.

ipank123 · 09-11-2010, 06:37 AM

I'm in the "minority" of non-complainers. Seriously, though, I think most people are excited about the upcoming 35 and k-r. It's just that the internet is usually a place where people complain, not praise. I, for one, cannot wait to see how well the 35mm get reviewed. It's the lens I've been waiting for.

ytterbium · 09-11-2010, 07:22 AM

Originally posted by ipank123

I'm in the "minority" of non-complainers. Seriously, though, I think most people are excited about the upcoming 35 and k-r. It's just that the internet is usually a place where people complain, not praise. I, for one, cannot wait to see how well the 35mm get reviewed. It's the lens I've been waiting for.

Indeed. Actually if you added a poll, even if many non-complainers also would be inactive voters you'd still get a positive result.
If you look at the poll included in one of the posts of infamous High food person blog, it shows positive score:
Poll Results: What Do You Think about Pentax' Announcements Today (Sept 9)?

Blue · 09-11-2010, 08:40 AM

Originally posted by ipank123

I'm in the "minority" of non-complainers. Seriously, though, I think most people are excited about the upcoming 35 and k-r. It's just that the internet is usually a place where people complain, not praise. I, for one, cannot wait to see how well the 35mm get reviewed. It's the lens I've been waiting for.

Many of the people you perceive to be complaining aren't. They are critiquing the aspects and potential capability of the gear. If an image in the critiqued objectively, you wouldn't call that complaining. BTW, I also critique the critiquing in there.

As far as using ISO performance as an excuse to crank out "slow" lenses, it would be like Ferrari making a decision to cut back the engine by 100 hp because the cabin is now so quite that the owner would notice. That may very well be true in every day driving. It will however suck at the road rally.

vaccice · 09-11-2010, 08:42 AM

Originally posted by Erik

Everyone: "The K-x is great! The only things I wish it had are an AF assist lamp and visible AF points in the viewfinder! Oh, and also I hate having to use AA batteries."
Pentax: "Hey guys, here's the successor to the K-x. It has an AF assist lamp and visible AF points in the viewfinder. Also, you don't have to use AA batteries any more, but you can if you want to."
Everyone: "IS THIS ALL I EXPECT MORE FROM AN UPGRADE GRAAARGH NERD RAGE THAT'S IT I'M BUYING CANON"

Haha, right!

lurchlarson · 09-13-2010, 10:54 AM

If you thought the Pentax community was negative on the K-r check out the comments from the Olympus community about the E-5 having a the PEN sensor.

RBellavance · 09-13-2010, 10:57 AM

Originally posted by lurchlarson

If you thought the Pentax community was negative on the K-r check out the comments from the Olympus community about the E-5 having a the PEN sensor.

To be honest, the rumoured specs of the E-5 are very much underwhelming...

asdf · 09-13-2010, 01:30 PM

Originally posted by PentaxPoke

I will bet anyone here that the new DA35 will not test out as well in sharpness as the FA 35 f/2.

Both lenses have 6 elements in 5 groups. I'm not sure whether the optical formula is public, but it's possible that both lenses are very similar.

EDIT:

Based on the pictures on RH's blog, they do have a similar optical formula.

PentaxPoke · 09-13-2010, 01:56 PM

Originally posted by asdf

Both lenses have 6 elements in 5 groups. I'm not sure whether the optical formula is public, but it's possible that both lenses are very similar.

EDIT:

Based on the pictures on RH's blog, they do have a similar optical formula.

Similar, but not the same. I find this overlay interesting:
DigitalFotoNetz.de :: Thema anzeigen - Pentax smc DA 35/2.4

It is possible that they use a similar formula, but have "cheapened" it. That certainly would explain the loss of the f/2 aperture. If the overlay is correct, it probably also suggests that this is not an FF-capable lens.

asdf · 09-13-2010, 02:01 PM

Originally posted by PentaxPoke

Similar, but not the same. I find this overlay interesting:
DigitalFotoNetz.de :: Thema anzeigen - Pentax smc DA 35/2.4

It is possible that they use a similar formula, but have "cheapened" it. That certainly would explain the loss of the f/2 aperture. If the overlay is correct, it probably also suggests that this is not an FF-capable lens.

Compare the relative diameter of the elements. The rear element is the same size, but the other elements have smaller diameter. There probably is a reason why it's a f/2.4. They did cheapen it: it has less glass in it.

EDIT: Hmm.. Sorry for repeating what you said.

lurchlarson · 09-13-2010, 02:18 PM

Originally posted by RBellavance

To be honest, the rumoured specs of the E-5 are very much underwhelming...

As a big fan of Olympus I would agree. I was trying to show that the K-r and K-5 specs could have been worse. We could have ended up like Oly fans.

creampuff · 09-13-2010, 03:19 PM

Well if the DA 35mm f/2.4 is derived from the FA 35mm f/2 (which I strongly suspect it is), I take the view that Pentax has definitely made budget cuts and dumbed down the specs. The press release for the new lens states: "incorporating a hybrid aspherical optical element in its design" and "compact, lightweight design" which I read as marketing speak for having lightweight plastic lens elements. What is clear is that nowhere does the official press release use the term "budget" or "affordable" and about the only hint of that is the phrase used "the perfect choice for digital SLR beginners". The only misnomer is using the heading "Large maximum aperture"... which I think is a cruel joke.

SpecialK · 09-13-2010, 03:23 PM

Originally posted by JohnBee

Wow... how richly bizarre...
Why are people so unhappy?

I'm not. First line is a joke. Second line is a wish list for whatever comes next time around (and I already wrote Dear Pentax).

Originally posted by Blue

(Bunny icon...)

Not sure what the bunny means :-)

09-10-2010, 09:53 PM	#107
PentaxPoke Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Oklahoma Posts: 1,411	Originally posted by creampuff I stand by my disappointment with the new DA 35mm f/2.4 notwithstanding the fact that there are no IQ tests done yet. Does Pentax need such a lens... most definitely, there is a pressing need to fill the gap for a cheap kit prime. I take the view that more lenses in the line-up are better for everyone, and I might buy one myself. However I strongly feel Pentax has made the error of producing a lens that lacks a maximum aperture comparable to budget offerings from Nikon, Sony and Canon. Unfortunately we don't have a choice in the matter as we're all locked-in to the K-mount with our Pentax DSLRs. We may never know why they opted for f/2.4 but what a missed opportunity, so I'm calling it as it is. I see plenty of frankly laughable remarks defending the new lens, some of which are pretty questionable if not condescending. Sort of along the lines of: - oh, it's for newbies, they don't need f/1.8 or f/2... they are better off with f/2.4 cause they can't handle the larger max aperture due to thin DOF and f/2.4 is good enough, and their pictures will be sharper... - f/1.8 is soft... so you need to stop down for decent sharpness... so you're gonna shoot at f/2.4 or f/2.8 anyway... besides, I don't shoot at such wide apertures... so f/2.4 is good :ugh: - high ISO takes away the need for a faster lens (bunkum) Well I sincerely do hope this lens (when we can do the IQ tests) is stellar from f/2.4 onwards but there's no escaping the fact that lenses past and present, prime or zoom are never their sharpest at the maximum aperture. With even a half stop or a full stop difference in max aperture, it will have an effect on the range of apertures to shoot for maximum sharpness. Perhaps we forget the effect of the aperture - DOF, bokeh, viewfinder brightness, ability for the camera to lock focus in AF, ease of manual focusing, subject isolation, etc. This lens will be a runaway hit... if only because of price, versatile focal length, (and color too) but prepare to see lots of snapshot kind of images coming your way soon. It's all good when you shoot a Pentax, just don't ask for large maximum aperture budget lenses. In a way this lens is keeping with the recurring theme of most DA lenses... nothing faster than f/2.4... Good points. I am floored by the decision as well. Especially considering that the FA35 f/2 was IMO one of the best non-Limited lens Pentax ever made. For example, compare the photozone tests of the 35 with the 31ltd. The 35 was amazing in sharpness all the way to the edges, even at f/2! The FA35 tests out better in sharpness than the new DA35 Limited! It was one of the few Pentax lenses that got the "Highly Recommended" rating. The FA35 also was going for around the same cost as this new DA, and it also was a FF lens. I will bet anyone here that the new DA35 will not test out as well in sharpness as the FA 35 f/2. Makes no sense at all... Last edited by PentaxPoke; 09-10-2010 at 10:04 PM.

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09-10-2010, 09:35 PM	#106
tigrebleu Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Lévis, Canada (Québec) Posts: 144	Originally posted by aleonx3 The maximum aperture of DA 35mm limited is only f2.8; I don't judge the quality of lens by maximum aperture alone, it is the optical quality that matters the most. If you were working in low light as often as I do, you'd trade a bit of quality for a faster aperture any time!

09-11-2010, 05:19 AM	#108
Boris Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Israel Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 932	Originally posted by Ash As above - we decide for ourselves whether the Pentax brand provides us with what we like, and if so we'd do well to support that. My own opinion on the 35/2.4 has no roots in fanboyism or obliged loyalty. It's perspective. I have little interest in the lens myself - I'm happy with the 31 ltd. But for what it is, I'm confident it will both do the job and satisfy the intended customers. Ash, you're quite right. It is just that I don't dare put myself into the shoes of the intended customers for this lens. My view on this lens is that Pentax seems to have not innovated this time. It is really just yet another off the mill, so to say. The only new thing is that now you can have not only (double) kit lenses in colors but this specific prime as well. Again, even if I did not have all three FA limiteds etc, I would still say that this lens does not cut it. For me. I am surprised to read how people put together allegedly excellent high noise performance of K-x and slow aperture and say that this is cool. I honestly don't understand such reasoning.

09-11-2010, 06:37 AM	#109
ipank123 New Member Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: Houston, TX Posts: 10	I'm in the "minority" of non-complainers. Seriously, though, I think most people are excited about the upcoming 35 and k-r. It's just that the internet is usually a place where people complain, not praise. I, for one, cannot wait to see how well the 35mm get reviewed. It's the lens I've been waiting for.

09-11-2010, 07:22 AM	#110
ytterbium Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 1,076	Originally posted by ipank123 I'm in the "minority" of non-complainers. Seriously, though, I think most people are excited about the upcoming 35 and k-r. It's just that the internet is usually a place where people complain, not praise. I, for one, cannot wait to see how well the 35mm get reviewed. It's the lens I've been waiting for. Indeed. Actually if you added a poll, even if many non-complainers also would be inactive voters you'd still get a positive result. If you look at the poll included in one of the posts of infamous High food person blog, it shows positive score: Poll Results: What Do You Think about Pentax' Announcements Today (Sept 9)?

09-11-2010, 08:40 AM	#111
Blue Moderator Site Supporter Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Florida Hill Country Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 17,377	Originally posted by ipank123 I'm in the "minority" of non-complainers. Seriously, though, I think most people are excited about the upcoming 35 and k-r. It's just that the internet is usually a place where people complain, not praise. I, for one, cannot wait to see how well the 35mm get reviewed. It's the lens I've been waiting for. Many of the people you perceive to be complaining aren't. They are critiquing the aspects and potential capability of the gear. If an image in the critiqued objectively, you wouldn't call that complaining. BTW, I also critique the critiquing in there. As far as using ISO performance as an excuse to crank out "slow" lenses, it would be like Ferrari making a decision to cut back the engine by 100 hp because the cabin is now so quite that the owner would notice. That may very well be true in every day driving. It will however suck at the road rally.

09-11-2010, 08:42 AM	#112
vaccice Junior Member Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: Ostrava Posts: 66	Originally posted by Erik Everyone: "The K-x is great! The only things I wish it had are an AF assist lamp and visible AF points in the viewfinder! Oh, and also I hate having to use AA batteries." Pentax: "Hey guys, here's the successor to the K-x. It has an AF assist lamp and visible AF points in the viewfinder. Also, you don't have to use AA batteries any more, but you can if you want to." Everyone: "IS THIS ALL I EXPECT MORE FROM AN UPGRADE GRAAARGH NERD RAGE THAT'S IT I'M BUYING CANON" Haha, right!

09-13-2010, 10:54 AM	#113
lurchlarson Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Oregon, USA Photos: Albums Posts: 681	If you thought the Pentax community was negative on the K-r check out the comments from the Olympus community about the E-5 having a the PEN sensor.

09-13-2010, 10:57 AM	#114
RBellavance Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Near Montréal, Canada Photos: Gallery Posts: 1,716	Originally posted by lurchlarson If you thought the Pentax community was negative on the K-r check out the comments from the Olympus community about the E-5 having a the PEN sensor. To be honest, the rumoured specs of the E-5 are very much underwhelming...

09-13-2010, 01:30 PM	#115
asdf Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Canada Posts: 1,252	Originally posted by PentaxPoke I will bet anyone here that the new DA35 will not test out as well in sharpness as the FA 35 f/2. Both lenses have 6 elements in 5 groups. I'm not sure whether the optical formula is public, but it's possible that both lenses are very similar. EDIT: Based on the pictures on RH's blog, they do have a similar optical formula.

09-13-2010, 01:56 PM	#116
PentaxPoke Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Oklahoma Posts: 1,411	Originally posted by asdf Both lenses have 6 elements in 5 groups. I'm not sure whether the optical formula is public, but it's possible that both lenses are very similar. EDIT: Based on the pictures on RH's blog, they do have a similar optical formula. Similar, but not the same. I find this overlay interesting: DigitalFotoNetz.de :: Thema anzeigen - Pentax smc DA 35/2.4 It is possible that they use a similar formula, but have "cheapened" it. That certainly would explain the loss of the f/2 aperture. If the overlay is correct, it probably also suggests that this is not an FF-capable lens.

09-13-2010, 02:01 PM	#117
asdf Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Canada Posts: 1,252	Originally posted by PentaxPoke Similar, but not the same. I find this overlay interesting: DigitalFotoNetz.de :: Thema anzeigen - Pentax smc DA 35/2.4 It is possible that they use a similar formula, but have "cheapened" it. That certainly would explain the loss of the f/2 aperture. If the overlay is correct, it probably also suggests that this is not an FF-capable lens. Compare the relative diameter of the elements. The rear element is the same size, but the other elements have smaller diameter. There probably is a reason why it's a f/2.4. They did cheapen it: it has less glass in it. EDIT: Hmm.. Sorry for repeating what you said.

09-13-2010, 02:18 PM	#118
lurchlarson Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Oregon, USA Photos: Albums Posts: 681	Originally posted by RBellavance To be honest, the rumoured specs of the E-5 are very much underwhelming... As a big fan of Olympus I would agree. I was trying to show that the K-r and K-5 specs could have been worse. We could have ended up like Oly fans.

09-13-2010, 03:19 PM	#119
creampuff Veteran Member Join Date: May 2007 Location: Singapore Photos: Gallery Posts: 3,953	Well if the DA 35mm f/2.4 is derived from the FA 35mm f/2 (which I strongly suspect it is), I take the view that Pentax has definitely made budget cuts and dumbed down the specs. The press release for the new lens states: "incorporating a hybrid aspherical optical element in its design" and "compact, lightweight design" which I read as marketing speak for having lightweight plastic lens elements. What is clear is that nowhere does the official press release use the term "budget" or "affordable" and about the only hint of that is the phrase used "the perfect choice for digital SLR beginners". The only misnomer is using the heading "Large maximum aperture"... which I think is a cruel joke.

09-13-2010, 03:23 PM	#120
SpecialK Pentaxian Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: So California Photos: Gallery Posts: 16,481	Originally posted by JohnBee Wow... how richly bizarre... Why are people so unhappy? I'm not. First line is a joke. Second line is a wish list for whatever comes next time around (and I already wrote Dear Pentax). Originally posted by Blue (Bunny icon...) Not sure what the bunny means :-)