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09-16-2010, 09:16 AM   #31
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QuoteOriginally posted by Ivan Glisin Quote
Speaking of market share:

How would then Ferrari or Porsche stack up against Toyota or Ford? If I take your words strictly, "unfortunately underperforming" would be correct it seems.
Not true,

Ferrari and Porsche are both prestige brands. Those brands sell for a lot more than they cost to produce, hence sales are lower than Ford's, but profit is higher.

Pentax cameras cost a similar amount to produce from Nikon or Canon, and need to be sold at a similar price point to remain competitive. Therefore, raw sales numbers determine the success of Pentax. This isn't Lieca... the point that the K-7 does not sell well compared to it's direct competitors is true.

However, I believe Pentax's trajectory is in the right direction. The k-X has gathered a tonne of users who will eventually look to upgrade (maybe to the K-5, maybe to the K-3), and I could see Pentax slowly collecting more market share... but please don't claim that Pentax is like a Ferrari... it's more like an Alfa Romeo .

09-16-2010, 09:20 AM   #32
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QuoteOriginally posted by ManuH Quote
People get crazy about the D7000 as if it was the second coming. The D7000 is after all just a Pentax K-7 repackaged with a new sensor (which the K-5 will have) and a Nikon badge on it. That's a bit sad that the K-7 didn't get this much attention 1.5 years ago, just because it was a Pentax. It seems that the only feature it needed to sell well was a Nikon badge on it. My 2¢
yes maybe so. but the the high ISO problems on k-7 is not up to specs where Nikon is Concerned.
On the Other Hand I am expecting the D7000 to smoke some Cameras including the d90 where ISO is concerned, it's going to be that good.
Now, if Pentax K-5 can smoke the d7000 out of the water in AF or other areas even ISO, it will darn sure make Nikon sit up and take notice.
Count me in, IF Pentax K-5 can outperform the d7000
09-16-2010, 09:37 AM   #33
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Steelski, Great post. And I'm of the same mind as you.

I currently shoot weddings, events, and portraits with the K20D and K10D backup.

And I've said in the past, "FF or else", and looked for better high ISO, faster FPS, and faster AF.

Now along comes the K-5, and like the K-7, is better than my current gear in those respects, but even more so.

So of my laundry list of gripes / wants / etc I can (pending the release of the real K-5 specs) say this:

- Quiet shutter of the K-7: I'd love it. Disrupting a quiet church ceremony with the K20D shutter is often a no-go. I've seen dirty looks from wedding guests at the noise loud shutters from all kinds of cameras make.

- Faster AF. I don't care what anyone else says, the K20D AF isn't fast enough with the 50-135. Should I get a Sigma 70-200? Maybe; I haven't done a side-by-side yet. Anything faster than what I have will just make my life easier.

- Better High ISO. I have proved to myself that I can, in a pinch, use the K20D ISO 3200 to maintain a higher shutter speed when I can't/shouldn't use flash, especially at 135mm-300mm. But after NR the results can look 'painterly' when printed large. The recent D7000 High ISO 3200 sample from Chase Jarvis gives me some hope. I like that today at ISO 400 and lower I get great results now that don't even need NR, so anything will be a welcome improvement. And I love, love, love that at ISO 400 and below, with a good lens, every single pixel in my RAW files means something; the Pentax preference to hold detail is what I like.

- Faster FPS. I often have only one second to get certain shots, and I like to 'bracket for focus' when shooting at f/1.2 - 2.8 to get that one perfect shot where just the right thing is in perfect focus (for 'soft' beauty shots), or to capture a group of people at the moment where none are blinking (coaching them doesn't always help).

How does the K-5 body look now?

I can live with the smaller size; it's not a dealbreaker. The deeper grip of K-7/K-5 body probably makes up for the size, and with the optional bottom grip (I use a grip on the K20D and K10D) I'll probably not care. In fact the smaller size will be welcome after shooting for 12 hours straight.

Initially I didn't like the menu system on the K-7. I can deal with that; I've heard no other complaints.

Loss of tethering on the K-7? Meh. I can deal with that, or use an older body the rare times I need it.

Gain of a mode dial lock? I want this badly! My biggest error right now is accidentally rotating the K20D mode dial out of M mode! Doh!

Gain of video? Nice. I've spoken out against pouring R&D $ into video (and away from stills performance), but offering wedding clients so-called fusion products? Priceless! Plus after seeing DSLR video I can't justify a dedicated video rig that has the same quality of output (ie, shallower depth of field)

SR button? Bracket button? Let's wait and see. I can deal with whatever I get in the K-5. I hate more that I accidentally shut off SR. And I use the bracket button rarely.

And the biggie: FF.

If the K-5 isn't a FF (and it doesn't seem to be), would I jump to Nikon? Or the 645D? I love the viewfinders in my old Pentax film bodies. Big. Bright. And I wear glasses, so the short eye-depth of the D7000 is a showstopper.

So if I really, really, thought FF was that important, I'd sell a kidney and get a 645D. But I bet that Pentax knew the K-5 would be such a great camera that it would satisfy all the non-Japan market that isn't getting the 645D right away.

I'm looking forward to the K-5, I don't think I'll need to jump anywhere; I certainly would miss SR and all those K-mount lenses I've got!
09-16-2010, 09:57 AM   #34
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The magnesium shell on the D7000 is half-assed compared to the K-7 and the K-7 is the previous generation.

QuoteQuote:
Compact but durable with magnesium-alloy top and rear covers, superior weather and dust seals and a 150,000 cycle-rated shutter system providing reliable operation
What they don't mention is those covers are screwed into plastic.

09-19-2010, 09:48 AM   #35
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Festus has read it all, and has some "inside contacts" that have told him the K5 is a K7 on a Megadose of steroids.......so he is willing to go out on a limb to give it a Highly Recommended. Otis has been known to lead people astray....many times...but Festus...Never! You guys fight it out, but when Festus says "Buy It"....I do!

Festus says there is no risk here!
09-19-2010, 12:26 PM   #36
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I agree with the OP from an emotional point of view

I have to agree with the OP from an emotional point of view. I have been blessed to own a PZ-1P, K10D, K20D, K200D, and a K7 from the Pentax stables. I have been equally blessed to own a D50, D80 and D300S. Currently I still have the PZ1P, K200D, K7, D80 and D300S. All of the cameras I have owned served me well. I use them to shoot events, sports, landscapes and wildlife. (currently I have 8 photographs in PPG, all wildlife shots) How do I decide which camera to use when? I look at their strenths and weaknesses. My D300S tends to be my in door event and night sports camera do to it's perceived better low light/high ISO performance, not it's alleged superior autofocas capabilities. For some reason my go to camera is still my K7. If the two of them are sitting side by side I grab the Pentax 80% of the time. I like how it feels, how the menues and controls are layed out and mostly I feel more inspired when I use it. Every photograph that I have had published was taken with my Pentax cameras. Yes, it could be said, "duh, if you use one camera the most then your chances of taking a publishable picture favor that camera." But, that in itself proves my point. From an emotional point of view the OP is entirely correct for those of us who feel the same way. We cannot always explain our emotions.
09-19-2010, 11:21 PM   #37
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QuoteOriginally posted by CharlieO Quote
I have to agree with the OP from an emotional point of view. I have been blessed to own a PZ-1P, K10D, K20D, K200D, and a K7 from the Pentax stables. I have been equally blessed to own a D50, D80 and D300S. Currently I still have the PZ1P, K200D, K7, D80 and D300S. All of the cameras I have owned served me well. I use them to shoot events, sports, landscapes and wildlife. (currently I have 8 photographs in PPG, all wildlife shots) How do I decide which camera to use when? I look at their strenths and weaknesses. My D300S tends to be my in door event and night sports camera do to it's perceived better low light/high ISO performance, not it's alleged superior autofocas capabilities. For some reason my go to camera is still my K7. If the two of them are sitting side by side I grab the Pentax 80% of the time. I like how it feels, how the menues and controls are layed out and mostly I feel more inspired when I use it. Every photograph that I have had published was taken with my Pentax cameras. Yes, it could be said, "duh, if you use one camera the most then your chances of taking a publishable picture favor that camera." But, that in itself proves my point. From an emotional point of view the OP is entirely correct for those of us who feel the same way. We cannot always explain our emotions.
Preach it Brother Charlie O.
Again I will reiterate, this is not entirely a Pentax Vs Nikon thread. This is a performance/function vs feeling thread. It could apply to any camera A vs camera B.
Charlie, I think everyone can understand why you reach for the D300 in the dark. But we also think your soul is tainted and you need to send me your cameras!!!
I am interested if you ever had anything lower than the PZ-1p, or any completely manual cameras before going AF.
I started completely AF and went to manual for a little while, I found the whole thing liberation and relaxing. It made me think more about the shot and savor the experience at the time more.
09-19-2010, 11:40 PM   #38
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From what I see, Pentax users whine more about Pentax than anyone else. Actually, what I read in other forums and listen from photographers here is that they love Pentax's IQ and build quality, and that would use it if there were more retailers and support.

I guess some people get so invested into a brand, that then it's a love-hate relationship everytime they go compare d*** size with other's brands spec sheets.

About market share:

This has more to do with having a retail network and investing in marketing to hammer your brand on everybody's head. Smart brands release high-spec'ed cameras just to drive the sales on the cheaper ones, such that for the buyer he's "proud" of buying a brand that got an A+ in the reviews. Some markets are particularly feature-driven (North America, Japan) and people buy whatever has big spec lists. Also, some brands have more penetration on some markets than others. I see that most of the disappointed users are from America and think Pentax underperforms on sales - like it should be selling at the same scale as CaNikon, many times bigger companies and that flood the market with models every month.

Let me say that here in Brazil, Pentax is one of the most well recognized brands between professionals, specially amongst the old-school ones. There's a mind blowing amount of Pentax gear on the used market, if I consider it's absolute size. From what I read in the forums, I believe it's the case in many other places too, like Europe.

So what they have is a small penetration in the North American market, which considering the amount of lobbying CaNikon does with most review sites - that are (surprise!) from the same North America - isn't unfeasible.


Last edited by hcarvalhoalves; 09-20-2010 at 12:10 AM.
09-21-2010, 11:22 AM   #39
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QuoteOriginally posted by CharlieO Quote
I have to agree with the OP from an emotional point of view. I have been blessed to own a PZ-1P, K10D, K20D, K200D, and a K7 from the Pentax stables. I have been equally blessed to own a D50, D80 and D300S. Currently I still have the PZ1P, K200D, K7, D80 and D300S. All of the cameras I have owned served me well. I use them to shoot events, sports, landscapes and wildlife. (currently I have 8 photographs in PPG, all wildlife shots) How do I decide which camera to use when? I look at their strenths and weaknesses. My D300S tends to be my in door event and night sports camera do to it's perceived better low light/high ISO performance, not it's alleged superior autofocas capabilities. For some reason my go to camera is still my K7. If the two of them are sitting side by side I grab the Pentax 80% of the time. I like how it feels, how the menues and controls are layed out and mostly I feel more inspired when I use it. Every photograph that I have had published was taken with my Pentax cameras. Yes, it could be said, "duh, if you use one camera the most then your chances of taking a publishable picture favor that camera." But, that in itself proves my point. From an emotional point of view the OP is entirely correct for those of us who feel the same way. We cannot always explain our emotions.
What is OP? just curious...
09-21-2010, 12:08 PM   #40
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OP = original poster
09-21-2010, 12:30 PM   #41
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I think some of the negative posts are being taken out of context and with too much seriousness...

1. Pentax probably monitors the forum for user feedback.
2. I've said recently that at the MSRP on Pentax's USA store doesn't show a good deal of value considering it's been 1.5 years since the K-7 and they used a lot of the K-7's parts to save on costs. Not to mention other manufacturer's offerings.
3. Any perceived negative comments I've made are in no way an indication I would switch brands.
4. It's natural for people to discuss things they have a passion about. Both the good and the bad.
09-21-2010, 12:41 PM   #42
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QuoteOriginally posted by paolojackson Quote
OP = original poser
I have edited the quote to be more realistic.
WORD! G
09-21-2010, 01:19 PM   #43
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spot on Steelski

I've tired of all the tech posts that stand in my way from the good ol' stuff in the forum

well I guess it'll be over in a couple of weeks (or so I hope)
09-21-2010, 04:50 PM   #44
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QuoteOriginally posted by paolojackson Quote
OP = original poster
thanks
09-22-2010, 08:01 AM   #45
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Steelski, fine post. But don't worry too much about it. People like to complain, and some love specs and gadgets more than photography. Your English is very good, BTW.

The ones who feel more safe, if their camera says Nikon or Canon, they will for sure be drawn elsewhere, every time Canikon comes out with a new cam.

In the film days, I was told by some very self-important Professionals that if I wanted to be serious, I of cause needed to go Nikon, Canon or maybe consider Minolta. I then read about Mattias Klum, one of the better National Geographic photographers, who had been on assignments many times with Pentax only kit. The thing people miss, when they take for granted that people are drawn by name brands, is that others will do what they can to make an informed and alternative choice. At Dpr; Pentax scores the highest in user satisfaction. It is not just users who walk into a store, and buy what they are told. It is users who evaluate the Pros and cons, and make a choice from there.

I can't count the times I've had others hold my Pentax, and they state that it feels so much better than their Canikon.

People like to buy Mac, instead of all being Microsoft. Others prefer Subaru/Saab/Alpha Romeo. Some like to show that they make up their own mind, and don't just follow the norm.

Some Pro's have a Pentax kit, just for the fun of it. For their own personal thing. And bring out their action photography kit or FF, for work instances.





QuoteOriginally posted by kytra Quote
I like people that take things personally (not!!

OK, let's put it that way:

I was very active on these topics because I am fresh from a Kx-Nikon D90 jump and let me tell you guys, I have taken 10000 pics with that kx, in outdoors, indoors, using primes and DA 50-135 and DA 12-24mm an a lot of other lenses, including FA Trio, in the night and in the midday.

Sadly, the D90 smokes the Kx by a mile, except for the bulk and white colour. I have got a lot of blurry pics with Kx because of the AF and flash implementation whereas with the D90 I have keeper after keeper.

I have also the K7 which is another ball game. Exemplary ergonomics, excellent build quality, excellent IQ in a lot of situations. Now is broken (one of the factors that convinced me to try the D90 before selling the Kx)

So I am no convert of Nikon or Pentax, just to be clear.

What I was saying in all my posts is that Pentax needs to shake things up because at this pace they will only loose market share. They need to concentrate and do welll on one market, sadly their mainstream full portfolio company days are over, the just don't have the size.

To OP: you said that you're surprised why so many people say they'll jump ship only seeying the D7000 announcement (and the K5 spec rumors btw). Now that is exactly the question that Pentax marketing department and management should ask themselves (and the clients)

Remember they have chosen Pentax at some moment, now they want to change. There must be some reasons. I rest my case.

We had another who switched to D90 and then later when he turned Pro, came back to Pentax. The grass didn't turn out to be greener on the other side.
And another who turned to the D300 for his action motorcycle photography. In the beginning he got fewer keepers, likely because he had a learning curve.
I don't see the D90 have much over the K7. Nor do I see a big appeal in the D7000 over the K5. The D700 is another matter.




QuoteOriginally posted by kytra Quote
well, you may be right. On the other hand, the fact that only an announcement stirred such a reaction in the same time with the supposedly competitive K5 specs leaking should give a lot of food for thought for Hoya/Pentax people.
Nothing new, it is the same everytime a new product comes out from Canikon. One of the reasons I generally stay away from the news and rumor section. And why I left Dpr.
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