Its my way or the highway

Steelski · 09-16-2010, 05:09 AM

Originally posted by kytra

I like people that take things personally (not!!

OK, let's put it that way:

I was very active on these topics because I am fresh from a Kx-Nikon D90 jump and let me tell you guys, I have taken 10000 pics with that kx, in outdoors, indoors, using primes and DA 50-135 and DA 12-24mm an a lot of other lenses, including FA Trio, in the night and in the midday.

Sadly, the D90 smokes the Kx by a mile, except for the bulk and white colour. I have got a lot of blurry pics with Kx because of the AF and flash implementation whereas with the D90 I have keeper after keeper.

I have also the K7 which is another ball game. Exemplary ergonomics, excellent build quality, excellent IQ in a lot of situations. Now is broken (one of the factors that convinced me to try the D90 before selling the Kx)

So I am no convert of Nikon or Pentax, just to be clear.

What I was saying in all my posts is that Pentax needs to shake things up because at this pace they will only loose market share. They need to concentrate and do welll on one market, sadly their mainstream full portfolio company days are over, the just don't have the size.

To OP: you said that you're surprised why so many people say they'll jump ship only seeying the D7000 announcement (and the K5 spec rumors btw). Now that is exactly the question that Pentax marketing department and management should ask themselves (and the clients)

Remember they have chosen Pentax at some moment, now they want to change. There must be some reasons. I rest my case.

I take your points as valid.
But you state that they just don't have the size. Never forget that Hoya is an extremely large company and has a lot of weight in the world of optics. Are you not surprised that Nikon no longer have an exclusivity on Sony chips.
Never the less, Not all Pentaxians are forum geeks like us, where I live Pentax is the third largest brand I see on the street. I see far more Pentax DSLRs than Sony and Oly. including m4/3. Mostly people with K200s and K-x cameras.

**Pål Jensen** · 09-16-2010, 05:22 AM

Originally posted by kytra

Sadly, the D90 smokes the Kx by a mile, except for the bulk and white colour. I have got a lot of blurry pics with Kx because of the AF and flash implementation whereas with the D90 I have keeper after keeper.

Strange. I've used AF cameras for nearly 20 years and I have never got a single blurry image due to AF issues. What am I doing wrong?

Boris · 09-16-2010, 05:28 AM

Originally posted by kytra

To OP: you said that you're surprised why so many people say they'll jump ship only seeying the D7000 announcement (and the K5 spec rumors btw). Now that is exactly the question that Pentax marketing department and management should ask themselves (and the clients)

There is a fine difference between what people say (and even doubly so on the internet forums) and what people actually do...

kytra · 09-16-2010, 05:59 AM

Originally posted by Boris

There is a fine difference between what people say (and even doubly so on the internet forums) and what people actually do...

well, you may be right. On the other hand, the fact that only an announcement stirred such a reaction in the same time with the supposedly competitive K5 specs leaking should give a lot of food for thought for Hoya/Pentax people.

Dunno if it is not too late at this time to try to reverse this trend but IMO is doable if and only if Pentax/Hoya will identify the markets where the products are stilll competitive and invest there as heavy as they can.

I hope the future will prove me wrong because I would hate that such a gloriuos brand, linked with so many moments in the life of so many people, should go down under the unforgiving market pressure.

**ManuH** · 09-16-2010, 06:10 AM - **1 Like**

People get crazy about the D7000 as if it was the second coming. The D7000 is after all just a Pentax K-7 repackaged with a new sensor (which the K-5 will have) and a Nikon badge on it. That's a bit sad that the K-7 didn't get this much attention 1.5 years ago, just because it was a Pentax. It seems that the only feature it needed to sell well was a Nikon badge on it. My 2¢

mickey · 09-16-2010, 06:28 AM

Good post.

The grass is always greener...or is it?
Saying that, 2 years ago I jumped ship from Canon to Pentax when I went digital a few years ago.
Never looked back.
I have my reasons, and happy with the bit of kit that I have.
My K10 is a workhorse, and I know its limitations.
It's just a joy to use...
Ah, there's that word..."use".

kytra · 09-16-2010, 06:30 AM

Originally posted by ManuH

People get crazy about the D7000 as if it was the second coming. The D7000 is after all just a Pentax K-7 repackaged with a new sensor (which the K-5 will have) and a Nikon badge on it. That's a bit sad that the K-7 didn't get this much attention 1.5 years ago, just because it was a Pentax. It seems that the only feature it needed to sell well was a Nikon badge on it. My 2¢

That is just the telling tale (K7 underperforming as a product despite high specs). I think the root cause is much more complicated and worthy of a case study for management.

**rod_grant** · 09-16-2010, 06:40 AM

Steelski, the western world is based on ownership of stuff; preferably bigger and better than the neighbour's. It has not made the western world an intrinsically better place. (Although a lot of people have enjoyed employment making the stuff that soon becomes obsolete.) I have to agree with you on your opening premise; whether a photographer is good enough to make a living, or as average as me and does it for fun, the value has to be in the pleasure of photography, not in the ownership of gear.
I enjoy using my aging *ist DS with my just-better-than-average-glass. I would prefer quicker AF and higher ISO (as my son has with his 40D). But my son's photos are better because he has a better eye for an image, steadier hands, more time and opportunity. He takes a pretty mean image with the DS when he gets it in his hands - and he DOES like to shoot with it!

**Pål Jensen** · 09-16-2010, 06:48 AM

Originally posted by kytra

That is just the telling tale (K7 underperforming as a product despite high specs). I think the root cause is much more complicated and worthy of a case study for management.

Absolute nonsense. The K-7 is the most sucessful Pentax higher end camera ever. It wins tests the world over. And everybody agrees that it is one of the finest DSLR bodies ever made. And now the two most sucessful Pentax DSLR ever are going to be updated. Are you guys living in a paralell universe?

Boris · 09-16-2010, 06:52 AM

Originally posted by kytra

I hope the future will prove me wrong because I would hate that such a gloriuos brand, linked with so many moments in the life of so many people, should go down under the unforgiving market pressure.

I am with you on this one

.

kytra · 09-16-2010, 07:31 AM

Originally posted by Pål Jensen

Absolute nonsense. The K-7 is the most sucessful Pentax higher end camera ever. It wins tests the world over. And everybody agrees that it is one of the finest DSLR bodies ever made. And now the two most sucessful Pentax DSLR ever are going to be updated. Are you guys living in a paralell universe?

No, just in the real life of value market share

- figures speak for themselves unfortunately - underperforming was in sales terms not actual product functionality.

Kx is the most succesfull Pentax to date, IMO and Kr will be above it because Kr is a killer in entry/mid level range.

opiedog · 09-16-2010, 07:48 AM

Originally posted by Pål Jensen

Absolute nonsense. The K-7 is the most sucessful Pentax higher end camera ever. It wins tests the world over. And everybody agrees that it is one of the finest DSLR bodies ever made. And now the two most sucessful Pentax DSLR ever are going to be updated. Are you guys living in a paralell universe?

it's true that the K7 has been the most successful pentax high-end camera to date, but the point here is how many people know pentax to buy it?

just being glad that your brand is being praised for its quality, etc. is not enough.

in my office alone, when i took my kx out, some folks look at me and ask? Nikon? Canon? oh, Pentax. errr... what's that?

kytra · 09-16-2010, 07:51 AM

Originally posted by opiedog

in my office alone, when i took my kx out, some folks look at me and ask? Nikon? Canon? oh, Pentax. errr... what's that?

so true

there are a lot of tricks to make cheap viral marketing but I come to think that Pentax marketing is staffed by incompetent engineers who got promoted in a management job and they are just sitting on their behinds doing whatever...

kytra · 09-16-2010, 08:10 AM

a few ideas:

- negotiate a deal with macdonald so their clown would use rainbow kr to photograph kids party
- put coloured kr in some teenage movies
- give free coloured kr to photo bloggers and you-tube stars. The biggest you tube star makes like USD 200000 per year - hell give him 50,000 and tell him to play with a coloured kr in some clips - he has million viewers

and so on...

Ivan Glisin · 09-16-2010, 08:26 AM

Speaking of market share:

Originally posted by kytra

No, just in the real life of value market share - figures speak for themselves unfortunately - underperforming was in sales terms not actual product functionality.

How would then Ferrari or Porsche stack up against Toyota or Ford? If I take your words strictly, "unfortunately underperforming" would be correct it seems.

Originally posted by opiedog

in my office alone, when i took my kx out, some folks look at me and ask? Nikon? Canon? oh, Pentax. errr... what's that?

The same question I got asked by a colleague after mentioning I have Wharfedale speakers. Errr... what's that?

Still, I like the sound of my Wharfedales, I like shooting with my Pentax(es) (MX, DS, K10D), and I would not mind driving a 911 at all. All "unfortunate underperformers" by terms of market share, but quite good performers by any other standard which is all that really matters to me.

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09-16-2010, 05:09 AM	#16
Steelski Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Varna Posts: 470 Original Poster	Originally posted by kytra I like people that take things personally (not!! OK, let's put it that way: I was very active on these topics because I am fresh from a Kx-Nikon D90 jump and let me tell you guys, I have taken 10000 pics with that kx, in outdoors, indoors, using primes and DA 50-135 and DA 12-24mm an a lot of other lenses, including FA Trio, in the night and in the midday. Sadly, the D90 smokes the Kx by a mile, except for the bulk and white colour. I have got a lot of blurry pics with Kx because of the AF and flash implementation whereas with the D90 I have keeper after keeper. I have also the K7 which is another ball game. Exemplary ergonomics, excellent build quality, excellent IQ in a lot of situations. Now is broken (one of the factors that convinced me to try the D90 before selling the Kx) So I am no convert of Nikon or Pentax, just to be clear. What I was saying in all my posts is that Pentax needs to shake things up because at this pace they will only loose market share. They need to concentrate and do welll on one market, sadly their mainstream full portfolio company days are over, the just don't have the size. To OP: you said that you're surprised why so many people say they'll jump ship only seeying the D7000 announcement (and the K5 spec rumors btw). Now that is exactly the question that Pentax marketing department and management should ask themselves (and the clients) Remember they have chosen Pentax at some moment, now they want to change. There must be some reasons. I rest my case. I take your points as valid. But you state that they just don't have the size. Never forget that Hoya is an extremely large company and has a lot of weight in the world of optics. Are you not surprised that Nikon no longer have an exclusivity on Sony chips. Never the less, Not all Pentaxians are forum geeks like us, where I live Pentax is the third largest brand I see on the street. I see far more Pentax DSLRs than Sony and Oly. including m4/3. Mostly people with K200s and K-x cameras.

09-16-2010, 05:22 AM	#17
Pål Jensen Site Supporter Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Norway Photos: Albums Posts: 4,371	Originally posted by kytra Sadly, the D90 smokes the Kx by a mile, except for the bulk and white colour. I have got a lot of blurry pics with Kx because of the AF and flash implementation whereas with the D90 I have keeper after keeper. Strange. I've used AF cameras for nearly 20 years and I have never got a single blurry image due to AF issues. What am I doing wrong?

09-16-2010, 05:28 AM	#18
Boris Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Israel Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 932	Originally posted by kytra To OP: you said that you're surprised why so many people say they'll jump ship only seeying the D7000 announcement (and the K5 spec rumors btw). Now that is exactly the question that Pentax marketing department and management should ask themselves (and the clients) There is a fine difference between what people say (and even doubly so on the internet forums) and what people actually do...

09-16-2010, 05:59 AM	#19
kytra Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Bucharest Posts: 482	Originally posted by Boris There is a fine difference between what people say (and even doubly so on the internet forums) and what people actually do... well, you may be right. On the other hand, the fact that only an announcement stirred such a reaction in the same time with the supposedly competitive K5 specs leaking should give a lot of food for thought for Hoya/Pentax people. Dunno if it is not too late at this time to try to reverse this trend but IMO is doable if and only if Pentax/Hoya will identify the markets where the products are stilll competitive and invest there as heavy as they can. I hope the future will prove me wrong because I would hate that such a gloriuos brand, linked with so many moments in the life of so many people, should go down under the unforgiving market pressure.

09-16-2010, 06:10 AM - 1 Like	#20
ManuH Site Supporter Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Montreal Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 1,249	People get crazy about the D7000 as if it was the second coming. The D7000 is after all just a Pentax K-7 repackaged with a new sensor (which the K-5 will have) and a Nikon badge on it. That's a bit sad that the K-7 didn't get this much attention 1.5 years ago, just because it was a Pentax. It seems that the only feature it needed to sell well was a Nikon badge on it. My 2¢

09-16-2010, 06:28 AM	#21
mickey Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Japan Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 1,146	Good post. The grass is always greener...or is it? Saying that, 2 years ago I jumped ship from Canon to Pentax when I went digital a few years ago. Never looked back. I have my reasons, and happy with the bit of kit that I have. My K10 is a workhorse, and I know its limitations. It's just a joy to use... Ah, there's that word..."use".

09-16-2010, 06:30 AM	#22
kytra Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Bucharest Posts: 482	Originally posted by ManuH People get crazy about the D7000 as if it was the second coming. The D7000 is after all just a Pentax K-7 repackaged with a new sensor (which the K-5 will have) and a Nikon badge on it. That's a bit sad that the K-7 didn't get this much attention 1.5 years ago, just because it was a Pentax. It seems that the only feature it needed to sell well was a Nikon badge on it. My 2¢ That is just the telling tale (K7 underperforming as a product despite high specs). I think the root cause is much more complicated and worthy of a case study for management.

09-16-2010, 06:40 AM	#23
rod_grant Site Supporter Join Date: Apr 2010 Location: Wangaratta, Victoria Photos: Gallery Posts: 6,951	Steelski, the western world is based on ownership of stuff; preferably bigger and better than the neighbour's. It has not made the western world an intrinsically better place. (Although a lot of people have enjoyed employment making the stuff that soon becomes obsolete.) I have to agree with you on your opening premise; whether a photographer is good enough to make a living, or as average as me and does it for fun, the value has to be in the pleasure of photography, not in the ownership of gear. I enjoy using my aging *ist DS with my just-better-than-average-glass. I would prefer quicker AF and higher ISO (as my son has with his 40D). But my son's photos are better because he has a better eye for an image, steadier hands, more time and opportunity. He takes a pretty mean image with the DS when he gets it in his hands - and he DOES like to shoot with it!

09-16-2010, 06:48 AM	#24
Pål Jensen Site Supporter Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Norway Photos: Albums Posts: 4,371	Originally posted by kytra That is just the telling tale (K7 underperforming as a product despite high specs). I think the root cause is much more complicated and worthy of a case study for management. Absolute nonsense. The K-7 is the most sucessful Pentax higher end camera ever. It wins tests the world over. And everybody agrees that it is one of the finest DSLR bodies ever made. And now the two most sucessful Pentax DSLR ever are going to be updated. Are you guys living in a paralell universe?

09-16-2010, 06:52 AM	#25
Boris Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Israel Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 932	Originally posted by kytra I hope the future will prove me wrong because I would hate that such a gloriuos brand, linked with so many moments in the life of so many people, should go down under the unforgiving market pressure. I am with you on this one .

09-16-2010, 07:31 AM	#26
kytra Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Bucharest Posts: 482	Originally posted by Pål Jensen Absolute nonsense. The K-7 is the most sucessful Pentax higher end camera ever. It wins tests the world over. And everybody agrees that it is one of the finest DSLR bodies ever made. And now the two most sucessful Pentax DSLR ever are going to be updated. Are you guys living in a paralell universe? No, just in the real life of value market share - figures speak for themselves unfortunately - underperforming was in sales terms not actual product functionality. Kx is the most succesfull Pentax to date, IMO and Kr will be above it because Kr is a killer in entry/mid level range.

09-16-2010, 07:48 AM	#27
opiedog Inactive Account Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: NC Posts: 787	Originally posted by Pål Jensen Absolute nonsense. The K-7 is the most sucessful Pentax higher end camera ever. It wins tests the world over. And everybody agrees that it is one of the finest DSLR bodies ever made. And now the two most sucessful Pentax DSLR ever are going to be updated. Are you guys living in a paralell universe? it's true that the K7 has been the most successful pentax high-end camera to date, but the point here is how many people know pentax to buy it? just being glad that your brand is being praised for its quality, etc. is not enough. in my office alone, when i took my kx out, some folks look at me and ask? Nikon? Canon? oh, Pentax. errr... what's that?

09-16-2010, 07:51 AM	#28
kytra Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Bucharest Posts: 482	Originally posted by opiedog in my office alone, when i took my kx out, some folks look at me and ask? Nikon? Canon? oh, Pentax. errr... what's that? so true there are a lot of tricks to make cheap viral marketing but I come to think that Pentax marketing is staffed by incompetent engineers who got promoted in a management job and they are just sitting on their behinds doing whatever...

09-16-2010, 08:10 AM	#29
kytra Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Bucharest Posts: 482	a few ideas: - negotiate a deal with macdonald so their clown would use rainbow kr to photograph kids party - put coloured kr in some teenage movies - give free coloured kr to photo bloggers and you-tube stars. The biggest you tube star makes like USD 200000 per year - hell give him 50,000 and tell him to play with a coloured kr in some clips - he has million viewers and so on...

09-16-2010, 08:26 AM	#30
Ivan Glisin Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Belgrade Posts: 656	Speaking of market share: Originally posted by kytra No, just in the real life of value market share - figures speak for themselves unfortunately - underperforming was in sales terms not actual product functionality. How would then Ferrari or Porsche stack up against Toyota or Ford? If I take your words strictly, "unfortunately underperforming" would be correct it seems. Originally posted by opiedog in my office alone, when i took my kx out, some folks look at me and ask? Nikon? Canon? oh, Pentax. errr... what's that? The same question I got asked by a colleague after mentioning I have Wharfedale speakers. Errr... what's that? Still, I like the sound of my Wharfedales, I like shooting with my Pentax(es) (MX, DS, K10D), and I would not mind driving a 911 at all. All "unfortunate underperformers" by terms of market share, but quite good performers by any other standard which is all that really matters to me.