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09-16-2010, 02:35 AM - 47 Likes   #1
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Its my way or the highway

This is about the Nikon/Canon/Pentax jumping ship at the sight of a body people.

Dear fellow Pentaxians.
I am a working professional photographer that lives in a country called Bulgaria. I have my own strobe studio that I use for portraiture, I shoot weddings, parties and other events. I am waiting for my big break into serious work (yes I do not consider weddings to be what I want to be doing). Above all these things I became a professional photographer because I really love doing it for myself.
I have a self taught background and really loved processing my own B&W work. It was a real pleasure!!!!!
Now I earn the equivalent of $250 dollars per wedding......and I am expensive here!!!!
Despite all the limitations of my equipment, I am able to pull of good results... better than those with full frame Nikons and Canons around me. They pride themselves on equipment and often sneer at mine.
I am under no illusion that If I were to use a more professional tool than my K20D and K10D combo I would get better results! But I can not afford two systems. You see, I am besotted with the Joy of photography. I love to take pictures!!!! Not so much process them. I know I get that from my Pentax K20D.
Its really sad that a lot of people are so struck by the specs and price of the D7000. The K-7 is described by all of its owners with words more akin to a friend than a tool.

I recently saw the DPREVIEW description of the K-7 against the D7000.
"The Pentax K7, which has slipped into the D7000's class by virtue of its current asking price, combines handling qualities of both the D7000 and the two Canons, and is arguably one of the most pleasant DSLRs of its type to hold and use."
The key word is also the last one. "USE"

I read a couple of comment that Nikon has won this round, or has beaten Pentax.
Nonsense. If you think that then you are really need to look again.
Technically they are like twins.
I see nothing to sway anyone one way or the other....
"but what about AF" I hear some scream.
You mean the dumbed down D300 array with 9 cross points, all of which smaller and clustered towards the middle. I think many need to check what the comments were when Nikon abandoned its very similar to Pentax array in the D2x.
AF was near identical with a better performance in some situations for the new D300 and some for the D2x.
http://www.luminescentphoto.com/articles/CAM2000/CAM2000-Sensor-Placement.gif
We have a rather untested Safox IX+ that people are already dismissing. Its already second gen after the 645D and is said to be much faster by the few sources we have...... So lets wait and see.

Forgive me for straying but I thought I would answer that question before it was asked.

Now, the Joy of shooting. As I said before , I cling to my Pentax equipment because it gives me joy, I have shot a few other cameras that simply did not feel so right in the hand, and certainly did not give me pleasure (including a Nikon D700 and D80, Canon rebels and 40D). I have also used Pentax cameras that do the same..... the PZ-1p being a performance revaluation when I got it back in the day, but it did not feel great to use.

What strikes me is that I am willing to wait for something that I know I will like to use, and a big bunch of you are just ready to jump.
Go ahead, you are clearly just tech junkies, and for something that is likley to be a very marginal difference and a few more dollars at launch.
Go ahead and buy the Nikon primes you want. The 35mm 1.4 is nice. So is the 24 1.4 and 85 1.4.
I sit hear dreaming that I got the FA Limiteds trio before the price hike, but they are still cheaper than the Nikons.
What I am saying is that a lot of you clearly do not value the actual use of your equipment. You are very willing to give up on something that very few companies actually offer, and thats user satisfaction. I know the K-7 was not up to scratch at High ISO, and the focus was still slow at low light, I also know that the flash system needs development, as do some the lenses. Now that the camera aspect seems to have been addressed, what?.... the feeling of the way Pentax do things is gone? The K-7 which was designed like a glove is comparable to the D90 with a few more buttons? Save some money, buy your high performance Nikon and good riddance to you (although technically I think Pentax is actually a step above in some aspects)
I value the joy of photographing something. You value what???? IQ, speed, accuracy, focus point, VR, branding. If you find the D7000 gives you joy, go.....run....... thats good. If you value the Pentax way of taking pictures, really, is a few dollars at launch so much.. Take this into account..... the D90 launched at a street price of 999 US, its now 899, two years later.
The K-7 is now at a lower starting price than the D90, and it came out at 1150 just around a year ago.
By the time you go to upgrade, I think the K-5 will be at the same price as the Nikon.

So, take your pick.
Superior user experience or....... technically about the same but slightly cheaper at launch.
Oh and the K-r might be right up your ally anyway if you want something less for less.
In essence I am saying that you should not put so much worth in specs alone. The camera you use does not make you a better photographer, but it can be the difference between you being a happy/satisfied one to one that is not. I know you are not all professional photographers, and would advise you to follow your feeling and not so much spec sheets and prices. You do not need incrementally better performance, you need happiness and satisfaction.
As I said before, if you find that with the Nikon, GO!!!, but its much more likely you will actually prefer the K-5 if the reason you came to Pentax has not changed in the past few months.


Edit: Clarification. The title, My way or the Highway.... I am not saying you do things My way, more so looking from your personal perspective, or from the perspective of Pentax and how they intertwine. Each person has his own way, path. Each company tries to cater for that. Canon and Nikon cater for a larger performance market which Pentax has never really been part of the top tier.....excluding MF. Even with the LX, you can see trademark things like compactness and durability. I bought my PZ-1p on specs alone and regret not going for the MZ-S. Which is a very refined and crafted camera, in the vein of the K-7.


Last edited by Steelski; 09-16-2010 at 03:06 AM. Reason: clarification
09-16-2010, 02:44 AM   #2
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Thankyou for a logical and sensible post that puts things into perspective.
09-16-2010, 02:53 AM   #3
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Just gave you the reputation points...
09-16-2010, 02:53 AM   #4
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QuoteOriginally posted by Steelski Quote
I know you are not all professional photographers, and would advise you to follow your feeling and not so much spec sheets and prices. You do not need incrementally better performance, you need happiness and satisfaction.
Brilliantly said!

09-16-2010, 03:16 AM   #5
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QuoteOriginally posted by Steelski Quote
What I am saying is that a lot of you clearly do not value the actual use of your equipment.
Perhaps as the Pentax suits what you shoot you do not appreciate how pleasant a faster AF would be when shooting sport. You are deciding what's best for you, as well you should, but you should not decide what's best for other people using their camera for a different purpose.

I agree, I love the feel of my K-7, and if I wasn't into sports shooting I would be very happy with it (well actually I am very happy with it, but realise that it has its limitations). But for MY usage, the Af is its limiting factor. BUT, of course I will wait to see the results of the latest incarnation of Pentax's AF on the K-5.

QuoteOriginally posted by Steelski Quote
I cling to my Pentax equipment because it gives me joy
As it does to me also, but I do not believe that I can't be happy with another brand also, I would not limit myself so.
QuoteOriginally posted by Steelski Quote
You are very willing to give up on something that very few companies actually offer, and thats user satisfaction.

I believe you are trying to foist your opinions, based on your user experience, onto other people who have had different experiences and have different requirements to you. Everyone is free to make up their own minds for their own reasons. You seem to think less of people who do so for some reason., whereas I say good luck, and I hope it works out for you.

BTW I will not be buying a D7000.
09-16-2010, 03:22 AM   #6
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Would i be a better photografer wirh a d700? No. A d3s? No.

A 645d? Well... maby

Good post
09-16-2010, 03:23 AM   #7
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QuoteOriginally posted by Steelski Quote
This is about the Nikon/Canon/Pentax jumping ship at the sight of a body people.

Dear fellow Pentaxians.
I am a working professional photographer that lives in a country called Bulgaria.
.
.
.
It seems somebody is irritated... (no offense, I think mostly the same thing than you )

Last weekend I remember that almost everybody on this foru was praising for the new K5, telling how much they were ready to spend to get one as soon as possible (sometime even more than what they were ready to pay for a Pentax FF body! ), and suddently, since yesterday, it looks like the K5 is not going to be a good camera anymore.
My opinion: K5 is going to be a very good Pentax. It will just offer what Pentaxians are used to have and to ask. And will offer a much better IQ than the K7. So nothing to complain finally.
Then, it would also be stupid to not accept that the other brands also offer wonderful bodies this year, much more competitive to the Pentax flagship than usually, and offering some advantages that we don't have in Pentaxland (especially a good ultrasonic motor).
So the question now for people is more: which lenses do I want/need? Can I get enougth with Pentax (in that case no real reasons to switch) or do I want more, something not present today and probably not until a lot of time.

Whatever is the answer, 2010 buyers will be very happy with there new equipments.
09-16-2010, 03:57 AM   #8
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I agree with the feeling part, you buy Pentax by feeling (because is hard to find one to actually test before).
As i am sure the Canikon users are not all snobs being tormented by the camera and get no joy out of using it. So far as i understand the major advantage of Pentax was size/weight, WR, SR and old lens compatibility. D7000 is entering Pentax territory here i believe, and has good marketing and support. It is a different game now that will be not only on paper.
Maybe Pentax is happy with Japan market, because i don't see them doing something for customers elsewhere. I'm from Romania, and after 3 months of contacting Pentax representative here, i see they have in stock now 1 remote control F i am willing to buy.
Not to say that the website at "news" is speaking of Easter price reductions and no word about K-r, new compacts or K-5.
It is just competition, and seems Nikon is playing the cards smarter so far. Pentax, if it will be affected, would be just collateral damage as i don't think is considered serious competitor in terms of market share.
We don't know exact specs of K-5, but after the buzz Nikon is making with this model, is down to marketing to make a spectacular launch at Photokina and outline advantages (can be SR, new AF, affordable WR, etc.)

If i were them, i would introduce the concept of "system sale"(or something like that) also along with the "kit". I would make systems for "wildlife", "nature", etc. having more than two lenses sold at almost production price. I would not earn maybe anything on some lenses, but i gain customers i need and gain the "buzz" factor.

As the little fish in the tank you always have to do something spectacular to draw attention.

09-16-2010, 04:13 AM - 1 Like   #9
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QuoteOriginally posted by Arpe Quote
Perhaps as the Pentax suits what you shoot you do not appreciate how pleasant a faster AF would be when shooting sport. You are deciding what's best for you, as well you should, but you should not decide what's best for other people using their camera for a different purpose.


I agree, I love the feel of my K-7, and if I wasn't into sports shooting I would be very happy with it (well actually I am very happy with it, but realise that it has its limitations). But for MY usage, the Af is its limiting factor. BUT, of course I will wait to see the results of the latest incarnation of Pentax's AF on the K-5.

As it does to me also, but I do not believe that I can't be happy with another brand also, I would not limit myself so.



I believe you are trying to foist your opinions, based on your user experience, onto other people who have had different experiences and have different requirements to you. Everyone is free to make up their own minds for their own reasons. You seem to think less of people who do so for some reason., whereas I say good luck, and I hope it works out for you.

BTW I will not be buying a D7000.
I stand by my statement, I dont think you realize it but you are a testimony of the importance of great ergonomics over sheer speed. You say you love using the K-7 and you point to its limitations. If you were just getting your kicks from shooting sports, I doubt you would be still with Pentax.
Seriously, why are you still here? A camera is more than a Chip in a box and a good AF system. You know this, I know this and you are arguably in the same boat. I continue to buy into the system because it feels made for me.
I am not trying to tell people what their needs are, but frankly most people do not know their needs. They understand wants. Most do not shoot simply sports, and if they did then read below....
I realise that for sports, Pentax would not be my first choice. It would be a Canon probably. But I do not get my kicks from sport.
Its not a great system for serious birding either.
But it is a great system for a great deal more.

As for being happy with another brand. you can be, I am not here to say you can not be, but I would point out that If you came to Pentax with specific needs that they fulfilled, you will find it very hard to enjoy other equipment as much.
I realize that there are people who shoot Nikon and are deeply happy. Their needs were met!. I also shoot a tiny Samsung P&S, and my needs are met, but I chose it very carefully over a lot of competition. Based on...... feel, balanced with performance and usability.
Needless to say its a Metal body with quick UI. (NV8 if you are interested)..

I do not think less of people who choose differently to me. But I do think less of them if they are doing it for the wrong reasons.
I don't care about people choosing Canon/Nikon/Sony. If they chose it for the right reason.
Here is a quick example.
My cousin bought himself a camera, He had never shot a DSLR/SLR camera before.
He simply walked into a shop in Munich and said, I want the best thing possible for shooting pictures of my kids and family pictures.
You know what they gave him........ A D700, with 14-24, 24-70.. and SB900 to boot.
He had no clue, and he still can not shoot.
Now he walks around like a prat with a huge bag. Oh, and sometimes he does not take it with him because its too big.
Its an extreme example, but it applies to a lot of people. I believe in the power of Elitism. It can be a good thing for someone to actually tell you what you need instead of you picking "the best" for your needs ONLY!!! when most people do not realize what they need.
I know most Pentaxians came into the system educated in its strengths and weaknesses, yet still chose it. I refuse to believe that a large part of that was not simply the feeling they get when using it.
Its the exact same reason Lieca still exists. Their cameras are more about feel than anything related to IQ/performance.
Honestly, it comes down to incremental differences between the K-5 and D7000....On specs alone.
If it came down to actual use, which takes into account, feel, sound, ergonomics, usability, and confidence. I think people would not be so enthusiastic to jump. when all they have to greet them is a beefed up D90.
I am sure it will be a great camera (D7000) but it bothers me that people all of a sudden feel less of what was there 2 weeks ago simply on the issue of a few $$$, they need to re-asses their position with Pentax, why am I here? Am I here on feeling or specs?

Anyway, I think I ranted long enough.
I really wish anyone who orders the D7000 could enjoy it, but I think they will be happier to stay here once the price drops and the new flashes are released.
09-16-2010, 04:19 AM   #10
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QuoteOriginally posted by Steelski Quote
I am not trying to tell people what their needs are, but frankly most people do not know their needs. They understand wants.
Indeed. Needs and wants are totally different things. Needs are real. Wants are created by PR and marketing hype.
09-16-2010, 04:20 AM   #11
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Very well said. What really amazes me is that all the ship-jumpers declare their departure only 4 days before we will know the specs of the K-5. The only thing we (with a few exceptions) know for sure at this point, is that it will share the wonderful look and feel of the K-7.
09-16-2010, 04:32 AM   #12
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Im still waiting for there gear to end up in the marketplace
09-16-2010, 04:42 AM - 1 Like   #13
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Ignore the trolls

For some reason, photographers whine and moan online more than any other subculture that I've encountered. I sometimes wonder about why this is so, but I'm yet to arrive at a satisfactory theory.

Whatever.

Steelski, you've been on these forums for long enough to see all manner of neurotic online spleen venting. This is just more of the same. Don't let it bother you.

Next week the K-5 will be announced, and many of the people that are currently fretting about the D7000 will be ecstatic about Pentax's new flagship. People will be born, others will die, some will make love. The Earth will continue to spin on its axis. Life goes on.
09-16-2010, 04:53 AM   #14
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QuoteOriginally posted by asw66 Quote
The Earth will continue to spin on its axis. Life goes on.
WILL IT?

How do you know???

Have you seen the specs...... or have you felt them...


heheh, that reminded me of a joke.

Darf Vader: "Luke, I know what you will be getting for Christmas.....For I have felt your presents".
09-16-2010, 04:56 AM   #15
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I like people that take things personally (not!!

OK, let's put it that way:

I was very active on these topics because I am fresh from a Kx-Nikon D90 jump and let me tell you guys, I have taken 10000 pics with that kx, in outdoors, indoors, using primes and DA 50-135 and DA 12-24mm an a lot of other lenses, including FA Trio, in the night and in the midday.

Sadly, the D90 smokes the Kx by a mile, except for the bulk and white colour. I have got a lot of blurry pics with Kx because of the AF and flash implementation whereas with the D90 I have keeper after keeper.

I have also the K7 which is another ball game. Exemplary ergonomics, excellent build quality, excellent IQ in a lot of situations. Now is broken (one of the factors that convinced me to try the D90 before selling the Kx)

So I am no convert of Nikon or Pentax, just to be clear.

What I was saying in all my posts is that Pentax needs to shake things up because at this pace they will only loose market share. They need to concentrate and do welll on one market, sadly their mainstream full portfolio company days are over, the just don't have the size.

To OP: you said that you're surprised why so many people say they'll jump ship only seeying the D7000 announcement (and the K5 spec rumors btw). Now that is exactly the question that Pentax marketing department and management should ask themselves (and the clients)

Remember they have chosen Pentax at some moment, now they want to change. There must be some reasons. I rest my case.
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