Won't touch the K5 without 24p and manual control

**eccentricphotography** · 09-24-2010, 03:29 PM

Originally posted by davidsladek

Seriously, are these shouts neccessary?
Personally, I would prefer K-5 completely video-free. And I do not cry. Your 'I won't touch the K5 without 24p and manual control' echoes in my mind as 'Go and buy a videocamera'.

I can try to understand your frustration but Pentax decided to make a great still camera, not a great video camera. And I am happy with this decision. I hope you find peace of mind with some of the great offerings of today's camera world.

Kind Regards

David

We've yet to see real world results from the K5. So it's premature to say they've made a great still camera. Let's hope they did. I guess you don't understand the advantage of sensor size for shooting video with a DSLR. The artistic advantage is great. To get the same results I need to spend a minimum of $10,000. That is only because of the soon to be released Panasonic AG AF100. Otherwise it's much more money. The future of our photography world is hybrid. I just had a juried review of my photography in L.A. with the Lucie Foundation. More than one of the reviewers mentioned the paradigm shift in video and stills being more and more of a hybrid market. Just face the future man....

deltoidjohn · 09-24-2010, 05:56 PM

25p is really not that big of an issue unless you are shooting multicam with different cameras. You can easily re-interpret footage in all proper NLE's without any blended or skipped frames, and no without transcoding at all. There will just be a very slight (but imperceptible) speed change. PAL users have been working around this with film for decades, now the situation is reversed and the NTSC users are crying bloody murder.

Manual controls are a much bigger omission. I understand the viewpoint that it's primarily a still camera, but it means they are now the only DSLR manufacturer not to have manual video control. I honestly thought at this price level, they would not forget manual control which would give it a chance to really compete with the 7D, 60D & D7000 for video.

JeffJS · 09-24-2010, 06:19 PM

Originally posted by eccentricphotography

I'm sure they'll fix the 24p with enough Pentaxians calling for it, but not so sure about manual exposure. If you call it the flagship don't have the video as a gimmick...As far as what the IQ and accuracy & speed APPEAR to be doing, that's exciting. Might even be enough to persuade me even if they don't fix the Manual exposure. I'll just need to go with two systems (GH2)

I still think video on an SLR, IS a gimmick. As to the frame rate, 24 vs 25, I'm still trying to figure out why I should care.

**eccentricphotography** · 09-24-2010, 06:42 PM

Originally posted by JeffJS

I still think video on an SLR, IS a gimmick. As to the frame rate, 24 vs 25, I'm still trying to figure out why I should care.

the last season of House was filmed with 5d's. Not so gimmicky. The ability to shoot a Nikon d3s in 103,000 iso with available light is no gimmick.

JeffJS · 09-24-2010, 06:46 PM

Originally posted by eccentricphotography

the last season of House was filmed with 5d's. Not so gimmicky. The ability to shoot a Nikon d3s in 103,000 iso with available light is no gimmick.

Then why are you screwing around with Pentax? and you still didn't answer the question re frame rate.

**eccentricphotography** · 09-24-2010, 07:07 PM

Originally posted by JeffJS

Then why are you screwing around with Pentax? and you still didn't answer the question re frame rate.

For the price, Pentax impresses me. I've had Pentax film and digital. I sold my Canon 7d and 15-85 in favor of a Kx Modified with limited lenses. I hold the photography in higher regard than the video, but the video should be more than an afterthought if it's going to be included. I could also mention lack of tethering and hdmi live out support.DFS. As far as frame rate, I didn't see a question. Just an opinion. If one is mixing media from different cameras, it's best to have them all the same in frame rate. 24p is movie industry standard.
p.s. so far my favorite lenses have been the 77 and 35 macro.

kittykat46 · 09-24-2010, 07:08 PM

Originally posted by deltoidjohn

25p is really not that big of an issue unless you are shooting multicam with different cameras. You can easily re-interpret footage in all proper NLE's without any blended or skipped frames, and no without transcoding at all. There will just be a very slight (but imperceptible) speed change. PAL users have been working around this with film for decades, now the situation is reversed and the NTSC users are crying bloody murder.

I'm a PAL user, and yes, for Home Videos, the difference between 24p and 25p is very small, and only an issue if I play straight from the original file.

There are 3 points where I can correct the difference.

Video Processor software (auto detect/selectable)
DVD player (if I burn it to a DVD) (auto detect as well)
PC media player (auto detect as well)

So 24p or 25p is a bit of a storm in a teacup, especially any serious Videographer.

JeffJS · 09-24-2010, 07:24 PM

Originally posted by eccentricphotography

For the price, Pentax impresses me. I've had Pentax film and digital. I sold my Canon 7d and 15-85 in favor of a Kx Modified with limited lenses. I hold the photography in higher regard than the video, but the video should be more than an afterthought if it's going to be included. I could also mention lack of tethering and hdmi live out support.DFS.

That's kind of my point about Video being a Gimmick and a watered down one at that. If we want the Pro features though, we should be buying the Pro cameras. K7 has HDMI out and will act live. Can't use it to control anything but you can still pipe it out to a larger monitor or an HD Television. Tethering, I've been shaking my head about that one since the release of the K7. DFS, since the release of the K20d. I wonder what I'll be shaking my head about with the K5..

Quote:

As far as frame rate, I didn't see a question. Just an opinion. If one is mixing media from different cameras, it's best to have them all the same in frame rate. 24p is movie industry standard.

No, it was actually a question, though it may not have come across that way. I really don't know the difference and certainly couldn't point out one vs the other while watching a video clip.

Quote:

p.s. so far my favorite lenses have been the 77 and 35 macro.

2 pretty good reasons to enjoy Pentax.

jogiba · 09-24-2010, 07:39 PM

Originally posted by JeffJS

I still think video on an SLR, IS a gimmick. As to the frame rate, 24 vs 25, I'm still trying to figure out why I should care.

Wake up.
[YT]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NfUUySn3y7w[/YT]

Canon Digital Learning Center - Sample EOS 5D Mark II Video: Reverie

JeffJS · 09-24-2010, 07:55 PM

Originally posted by jogiba

Wake up.

For what reason? If I want to shoot video, and pro video at that, I'll Buy a video camera.

And by the way, the 5D specs at 30 fps.

deltoidjohn · 09-24-2010, 08:16 PM

Originally posted by kittykat46

So 24p or 25p is a bit of a storm in a teacup, especially any serious Videographer.

I agree. However you do need to be careful with some of the techniques/processing of 24/25p conversion. Some software or hardware will duplicate frames, blend frames, drop frames or interpolate new frames which can have various negative effects on the final image.

Thats why re-interpreting the footage is the best way - it doesn't change any of the individual frames or the sequencing, it basically just changes how the timecode is read. So the 25th frame of a clip gets re-written from 00h 01s 00f (in 24p terms) to 00h 00s 25f (in 25p mode) and so on for the rest of the clip. It just tells the file to play back differently without actually making any changes to it.

Originally posted by JeffJS

I really don't know the difference and certainly couldn't point out one vs the other while watching a video clip.

I don't think anybody could, as long as the clips are played directly from the source (ie the camera's LCD screen) or a PC or some other hardware which can handle it natively. But not all hardware can handle it natively (because of the differences between PAL/NTSC) Playback 24p on a PAL 50hz TV and it will duplicate/blend frames. Drop it onto a 25p PAL timeline in an NLE and the same thing will happen.

While the difference between 24p and 25p is imperceptible, the way they behave when played on incompatible/non native equipment or software is very perceptible. So it has to be corrected, which is really no big deal. 30p to 25p... now thats a real pain in the arse.

brofkand · 09-24-2010, 08:32 PM

Video on DSLRs, at least at this point, is a gimmick.

Eruditass · 09-24-2010, 11:29 PM

Originally posted by JeffJS

And by the way, the 5D specs at 30 fps.

*bzzzt* WRONG!

RolloR · 09-24-2010, 11:46 PM

24, 25, 30... They're ok.

But as long as you can't control the shutter speed, it's kinda pointless.

deltoidjohn · 09-25-2010, 12:28 AM

Originally posted by brofkand

Video on DSLRs, at least at this point, is a gimmick.

Tell that to the thousands of wedding videographers, indy film-makers, actions sports film-makers, film student's, and even famous cinematographers who are using them.

Video on DSLR's was a gimmick until Canon changed the game with the 7D & the 5D firmware upgrade, then the 550D which brought the same possibilities to an even cheaper market. The ability to have proper control over DOF, a much wider dynamic range, interchangeable lenses and the ability to almost see in the dark has revolutionised digital videography completely, while at the same time making it available to people at a lower price point than any prosumer video camera (even if you buy a 7D with a few L-series lenses, it still works out cheaper than something like the HVX200!).

It's unfortunate that Pentax, like yourself, seem to have not realised the possibilities of DSLR video and believe it is just a gimmick.

09-24-2010, 07:55 PM	#25
JeffJS Inactive Account Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Michigan, USA Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 7,484	Originally posted by jogiba Wake up. For what reason? If I want to shoot video, and pro video at that, I'll Buy a video camera. And by the way, the 5D specs at 30 fps. Last edited by JeffJS; 09-24-2010 at 08:10 PM.

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09-24-2010, 03:29 PM	#16
eccentricphotography Site Supporter Join Date: May 2008 Location: Los Angeles Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 182 Original Poster	Originally posted by davidsladek Seriously, are these shouts neccessary? Personally, I would prefer K-5 completely video-free. And I do not cry. Your 'I won't touch the K5 without 24p and manual control' echoes in my mind as 'Go and buy a videocamera'. I can try to understand your frustration but Pentax decided to make a great still camera, not a great video camera. And I am happy with this decision. I hope you find peace of mind with some of the great offerings of today's camera world. Kind Regards David We've yet to see real world results from the K5. So it's premature to say they've made a great still camera. Let's hope they did. I guess you don't understand the advantage of sensor size for shooting video with a DSLR. The artistic advantage is great. To get the same results I need to spend a minimum of $10,000. That is only because of the soon to be released Panasonic AG AF100. Otherwise it's much more money. The future of our photography world is hybrid. I just had a juried review of my photography in L.A. with the Lucie Foundation. More than one of the reviewers mentioned the paradigm shift in video and stills being more and more of a hybrid market. Just face the future man....

09-24-2010, 05:56 PM	#17
deltoidjohn Forum Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Gold Coast, QLD Posts: 88	25p is really not that big of an issue unless you are shooting multicam with different cameras. You can easily re-interpret footage in all proper NLE's without any blended or skipped frames, and no without transcoding at all. There will just be a very slight (but imperceptible) speed change. PAL users have been working around this with film for decades, now the situation is reversed and the NTSC users are crying bloody murder. Manual controls are a much bigger omission. I understand the viewpoint that it's primarily a still camera, but it means they are now the only DSLR manufacturer not to have manual video control. I honestly thought at this price level, they would not forget manual control which would give it a chance to really compete with the 7D, 60D & D7000 for video.

09-24-2010, 06:19 PM	#18
JeffJS Inactive Account Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Michigan, USA Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 7,484	Originally posted by eccentricphotography I'm sure they'll fix the 24p with enough Pentaxians calling for it, but not so sure about manual exposure. If you call it the flagship don't have the video as a gimmick...As far as what the IQ and accuracy & speed APPEAR to be doing, that's exciting. Might even be enough to persuade me even if they don't fix the Manual exposure. I'll just need to go with two systems (GH2) I still think video on an SLR, IS a gimmick. As to the frame rate, 24 vs 25, I'm still trying to figure out why I should care.

09-24-2010, 06:42 PM	#19
eccentricphotography Site Supporter Join Date: May 2008 Location: Los Angeles Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 182 Original Poster	Originally posted by JeffJS I still think video on an SLR, IS a gimmick. As to the frame rate, 24 vs 25, I'm still trying to figure out why I should care. the last season of House was filmed with 5d's. Not so gimmicky. The ability to shoot a Nikon d3s in 103,000 iso with available light is no gimmick.

09-24-2010, 06:46 PM	#20
JeffJS Inactive Account Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Michigan, USA Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 7,484	Originally posted by eccentricphotography the last season of House was filmed with 5d's. Not so gimmicky. The ability to shoot a Nikon d3s in 103,000 iso with available light is no gimmick. Then why are you screwing around with Pentax? and you still didn't answer the question re frame rate.

09-24-2010, 07:07 PM	#21
eccentricphotography Site Supporter Join Date: May 2008 Location: Los Angeles Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 182 Original Poster	Originally posted by JeffJS Then why are you screwing around with Pentax? and you still didn't answer the question re frame rate. For the price, Pentax impresses me. I've had Pentax film and digital. I sold my Canon 7d and 15-85 in favor of a Kx Modified with limited lenses. I hold the photography in higher regard than the video, but the video should be more than an afterthought if it's going to be included. I could also mention lack of tethering and hdmi live out support.DFS. As far as frame rate, I didn't see a question. Just an opinion. If one is mixing media from different cameras, it's best to have them all the same in frame rate. 24p is movie industry standard. p.s. so far my favorite lenses have been the 77 and 35 macro.

09-24-2010, 07:08 PM	#22
kittykat46 Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2007 Posts: 923	Originally posted by deltoidjohn 25p is really not that big of an issue unless you are shooting multicam with different cameras. You can easily re-interpret footage in all proper NLE's without any blended or skipped frames, and no without transcoding at all. There will just be a very slight (but imperceptible) speed change. PAL users have been working around this with film for decades, now the situation is reversed and the NTSC users are crying bloody murder. I'm a PAL user, and yes, for Home Videos, the difference between 24p and 25p is very small, and only an issue if I play straight from the original file. There are 3 points where I can correct the difference. Video Processor software (auto detect/selectable) DVD player (if I burn it to a DVD) (auto detect as well) PC media player (auto detect as well) So 24p or 25p is a bit of a storm in a teacup, especially any serious Videographer.

09-24-2010, 07:24 PM	#23
JeffJS Inactive Account Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Michigan, USA Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 7,484	Originally posted by eccentricphotography For the price, Pentax impresses me. I've had Pentax film and digital. I sold my Canon 7d and 15-85 in favor of a Kx Modified with limited lenses. I hold the photography in higher regard than the video, but the video should be more than an afterthought if it's going to be included. I could also mention lack of tethering and hdmi live out support.DFS. That's kind of my point about Video being a Gimmick and a watered down one at that. If we want the Pro features though, we should be buying the Pro cameras. K7 has HDMI out and will act live. Can't use it to control anything but you can still pipe it out to a larger monitor or an HD Television. Tethering, I've been shaking my head about that one since the release of the K7. DFS, since the release of the K20d. I wonder what I'll be shaking my head about with the K5.. Quote: As far as frame rate, I didn't see a question. Just an opinion. If one is mixing media from different cameras, it's best to have them all the same in frame rate. 24p is movie industry standard. No, it was actually a question, though it may not have come across that way. I really don't know the difference and certainly couldn't point out one vs the other while watching a video clip. Quote: p.s. so far my favorite lenses have been the 77 and 35 macro. 2 pretty good reasons to enjoy Pentax.

09-24-2010, 07:39 PM	#24
jogiba Banned Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Millstone,NJ Posts: 6,491	Originally posted by JeffJS I still think video on an SLR, IS a gimmick. As to the frame rate, 24 vs 25, I'm still trying to figure out why I should care. Wake up. [YT]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NfUUySn3y7w[/YT] Canon Digital Learning Center - Sample EOS 5D Mark II Video: Reverie

09-24-2010, 08:16 PM	#26
deltoidjohn Forum Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Gold Coast, QLD Posts: 88	Originally posted by kittykat46 So 24p or 25p is a bit of a storm in a teacup, especially any serious Videographer. I agree. However you do need to be careful with some of the techniques/processing of 24/25p conversion. Some software or hardware will duplicate frames, blend frames, drop frames or interpolate new frames which can have various negative effects on the final image. Thats why re-interpreting the footage is the best way - it doesn't change any of the individual frames or the sequencing, it basically just changes how the timecode is read. So the 25th frame of a clip gets re-written from 00h 01s 00f (in 24p terms) to 00h 00s 25f (in 25p mode) and so on for the rest of the clip. It just tells the file to play back differently without actually making any changes to it. Originally posted by JeffJS I really don't know the difference and certainly couldn't point out one vs the other while watching a video clip. I don't think anybody could, as long as the clips are played directly from the source (ie the camera's LCD screen) or a PC or some other hardware which can handle it natively. But not all hardware can handle it natively (because of the differences between PAL/NTSC) Playback 24p on a PAL 50hz TV and it will duplicate/blend frames. Drop it onto a 25p PAL timeline in an NLE and the same thing will happen. While the difference between 24p and 25p is imperceptible, the way they behave when played on incompatible/non native equipment or software is very perceptible. So it has to be corrected, which is really no big deal. 30p to 25p... now thats a real pain in the arse.

09-24-2010, 08:32 PM	#27
brofkand Pentaxian Join Date: May 2009 Location: North Carolina Posts: 836	Video on DSLRs, at least at this point, is a gimmick.

09-24-2010, 11:29 PM	#28
Eruditass Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Photos: Gallery Posts: 2,207	Originally posted by JeffJS And by the way, the 5D specs at 30 fps. bzzzt WRONG!

09-24-2010, 11:46 PM	#29
RolloR Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2010 Photos: Albums Posts: 264	24, 25, 30... They're ok. But as long as you can't control the shutter speed, it's kinda pointless.

09-25-2010, 12:28 AM	#30
deltoidjohn Forum Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Gold Coast, QLD Posts: 88	Originally posted by brofkand Video on DSLRs, at least at this point, is a gimmick. Tell that to the thousands of wedding videographers, indy film-makers, actions sports film-makers, film student's, and even famous cinematographers who are using them. Video on DSLR's was a gimmick until Canon changed the game with the 7D & the 5D firmware upgrade, then the 550D which brought the same possibilities to an even cheaper market. The ability to have proper control over DOF, a much wider dynamic range, interchangeable lenses and the ability to almost see in the dark has revolutionised digital videography completely, while at the same time making it available to people at a lower price point than any prosumer video camera (even if you buy a 7D with a few L-series lenses, it still works out cheaper than something like the HVX200!). It's unfortunate that Pentax, like yourself, seem to have not realised the possibilities of DSLR video and believe it is just a gimmick.