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09-09-2007, 05:12 PM   #31
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???

"Pentax offers pro stuff at a price the common man can afford"

What pro stuff are you referring to?

09-09-2007, 05:30 PM   #32
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QuoteOriginally posted by RiceHigh Quote
If Pentax *could* sell the K10D at a higher price, why they didn't and don't do that?? Just think about it.

In the DSLR market, Pentax doesn't have the recognition needed to allow them to charge premium prices. So instead, the more immediate goal is to gain that recognition by increasing market share, and continuing to open doors (attract dealers, etc) for future sales, by producing strong, low-cost, products with high sales volume.

The strategy seems to be working so far. And it will continue to work as long as neither Nikon or Canon view the company as an immediate threat, lowering prices to match. That will certainly change at some point and so will the Pentax marketing strategy. But, by that time, Pentax will be a wealthier, more entrenched, company able to compete more directly with those two.

The obvious benefit to consumers in all this is lower prices, now with the Pentax products and perhaps in the furture as the big two lower prices to compete.

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09-09-2007, 06:07 PM   #33
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QuoteOriginally posted by Tom Lusk Quote
"Pentax offers pro stuff at a price the common man can afford"

What pro stuff are you referring to?
The K10D is certainly sufficient to use for professional photography....(though, yes, it was not marketed as a pro camera) It's a great camera, has great features, and looks and feels of professional quality. I am not sure why you're suspicious of my statement. My point was that a person who cannot afford $1300 plus for a body only can now purchase a pro level camera. But I do understand that some of you may disagree.

Last edited by PaulAndAPentax; 09-09-2007 at 06:15 PM.
09-09-2007, 07:07 PM   #34
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We will see what Pentax will do in Feb. of 2008. That is when the K10D replacement will be announced (along with K100D super replacement). The K10D is a fine camera that I would not trade for a Canon 5D. Picked up a friends 5D with 24- something image stabilized lens. It was almost the size of a Pentax 6x7. Canon has no IS lenses I am interested in. No IS fisheye, fast 50mm, 31 or 77 limited. The only other digital camera I lust for is the Leica M8. And boy do I lust for it.
thanks
barondla

09-09-2007, 08:39 PM   #35
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In product cycles the Canon 30D was announced Feb 2006. The Nikon D200 was announced in Nov 2005. Both companies have now announced the successors to these cameras for Canon 1 and half years later and for Nikon 1 year and 10 months later.

Can it be explained why Pentax needs to break their own product cycle just because Canon and Nikon released new cameras? Or do I need to drink a lot of Sake to understand this logic?

Canon and Nikon needed to release something new because their $1500 models were being out performed by an $800 camera by Pentax.
09-09-2007, 10:49 PM   #36
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QuoteOriginally posted by barondla Quote
We will see what Pentax will do in Feb. of 2008. That is when the K10D replacement will be announced
And, since there will be such a wait, will there be firmware updates for the K10D adding additional functionality & any advancements in improved JPG/IQ algorithms? Or is the K10D over and done with in terms of firmware improvements?

QuoteOriginally posted by barondla Quote
The only other digital camera I lust for is the Leica M8. And boy do I lust for it.
thanks
barondla
And for $4000, the couple of filters they toss at you as Leica's way to correct the erroneously designed IR screening.
09-09-2007, 11:23 PM   #37
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QuoteOriginally posted by barondla Quote
We will see what Pentax will do in Feb. of 2008. That is when the K10D replacement will be announced (along with K100D super replacement). The K10D is a fine camera that I would not trade for a Canon 5D. Picked up a friends 5D with 24- something image stabilized lens. It was almost the size of a Pentax 6x7. Canon has no IS lenses I am interested in. No IS fisheye, fast 50mm, 31 or 77 limited. The only other digital camera I lust for is the Leica M8. And boy do I lust for it.
thanks
barondla
I have to agree that my 5D with my 24-105L/4 lens on it is too big and heavy for my like and it is somehow a pain to use for this con! :-)

But then saying it is a 67 is actualy too exaggerated as the 5D is only 100g heavier than the K10D (which is not really small and lightweight neither).

So, I like my K100D, which is compact (relatively), feature rich, quite user-friendly and lightweight. I do choose to carry my K100D with my limited or FA primes or the kit lens if I do not want too much weight when I go out.

Of course, having said that, the 5D is a far more responsive and accurate camera than my K100D and with better image quality, lower noise and more pixel count. So, I can't get the best of both world, probably not until Pentax make a real high-end but compact Pro DSLR come days later when I can then use my excellent true Pentax glass - they was able to do it, the MZ-S is one of those (a few) legends from Pentax (but anyway it seems to be already something somehow long ago).
09-10-2007, 12:14 AM   #38
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rico Quote
In product cycles the Canon 30D was announced Feb 2006. The Nikon D200 was announced in Nov 2005. Both companies have now announced the successors to these cameras for Canon 1 and half years later and for Nikon 1 year and 10 months later.

Can it be explained why Pentax needs to break their own product cycle just because Canon and Nikon released new cameras? Or do I need to drink a lot of Sake to understand this logic?

Canon and Nikon needed to release something new because their $1500 models were being out performed by an $800 camera by Pentax.
The K10D may still "play" for another half year from now onwards for a product cycle of 1.5 year. However, the K100D is now close to the end of that cycle and it should be renewed completely (of course not just by a K100D Super which is nothing "super" at all in real).

The true problem with Pentax is that they lack a true entry level DSLR (by today's standard should be at least 10MP and should be more compact in size - targeted for those ladies and beginners) and no true Pro grade or even upper market DSLR (don't tell me it is the K10D, the *truth* is just that it is NOT. The truth is the K10D is focusing even slower than my MZ-30 at low light and is less accurate. Enough said.).

If Pentax can complete their line up, then they can compete, otherwise, their brand will be used only by a limited group of particular users, probably those old Pentaxians or a few those newcomers who found the K10D or K100D just right for them (for the price point and feature set etc.) and most of the new beginners or high demanding (pro or picky advanced amateur users) will not choose Pentax and go elsewhere. The reality is just as simple as that.

09-10-2007, 12:21 AM   #39
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QuoteOriginally posted by mutley Quote
And, since there will be such a wait, will there be firmware updates for the K10D adding additional functionality & any advancements in improved JPG/IQ algorithms? Or is the K10D over and done with in terms of firmware improvements?
I always can't understand for similar firmware magics imaginations by many people. If Pentax could do it right just by the firmware, they would have done it already. So, the truth is that it is not simple and straightforward as such, there must be a hardware limitation also!
09-10-2007, 12:47 AM   #40
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QuoteOriginally posted by RiceHigh Quote
The K10D may still "play" for another half year from now onwards for a product cycle of 1.5 year. However, the K100D is now close to the end of that cycle and it should be renewed completely (of course not just by a K100D Super which is nothing "super" at all in real).

The true problem with Pentax is that they lack a true entry level DSLR (by today's standard should be at least 10MP and should be more compact in size - targeted for those ladies and beginners) and no true Pro grade or even upper market DSLR (don't tell me it is the K10D, the *truth* is just that it is NOT. The truth is the K10D is focusing even slower than my MZ-30 at low light and is less accurate. Enough said.).

If Pentax can complete their line up, then they can compete, otherwise, their brand will be used only by a limited group of particular users, probably those old Pentaxians or a few those newcomers who found the K10D or K100D just right for them (for the price point and feature set etc.) and most of the new beginners or high demanding (pro or picky advanced amateur users) will not choose Pentax and go elsewhere. The reality is just as simple as that.
Just tell me one thing, did your mother beat you with K1000 while you were a kid?! Is that the reason you keep throwing punches at Pentax all the time!??! What to you think to accomplish!? As we all know, you have 5D, good for you... we all know that, and we don't have/want/need to be reminded all the time...

K10 is a fantastic camera, it has its flaws, but no camera is perfect... Just tell me one thing, name a camera under 700 USD that can compete with K10D...

D300 looks fantastic, it is a true revolution from D200... but it is also caries rather high price tag...

40D is a disappointment? Why, name one reason why 30D owners should upgrade to a new model?

A700 looks nice, but again, with a 1300 USD pricetag and a questionable performance/future. Why? Look at A100... it also looked nice...

e510; Come on, it is a nice entry level camera... but compared with K10, it is just out of its league

D400/XTi... LoL, at K10 pricetag, its ergonomy&features&performance are a joke...

D40/D40x.. .What was wrong with screwdriver??

D80... Very nice camera indeed...


Well thats it, enough for the first post...

PS. Hi guys, was reading ya' all for a while, was about time to register...
09-10-2007, 04:07 AM   #41
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QuoteOriginally posted by B051LjKo Quote
Just tell me one thing, did your mother beat you with K1000 while you were a kid?!
No problem. So I let you know. Your assumption was wrong because I was already an adult when I first touched on a K1000!

QuoteQuote:
Is that the reason you keep throwing punches at Pentax all the time!??! What to you think to accomplish!? As we all know, you have 5D, good for you... we all know that, and we don't have/want/need to be reminded all the time...
Wrong again. Trace and look back the thread and you can see who was talking about the 5D first!

QuoteQuote:
K10 is a fantastic camera, it has its flaws, but no camera is perfect... Just tell me one thing, name a camera under 700 USD that can compete with K10D...
Depending on what you think about "better". My view is the 400D/XTi has better image quality than the K10D.

QuoteQuote:
D300 looks fantastic, it is a true revolution from D200... but it is also caries rather high price tag...
So, what is a *better* Pentax DSLR at a higher price tag?

QuoteQuote:
40D is a disappointment? Why, name one reason why 30D owners should upgrade to a new model?
Higher frame rate, live view function, ultrasonic dust protection, larger mon, new image processor, higher bit RAW and so on.

QuoteQuote:
A700 looks nice, but again, with a 1300 USD pricetag and a questionable performance/future. Why? Look at A100... it also looked nice...
The A100 is totally outdated with an outdated which is inferior in noise at high ISO. At least the image processor is unable to handle such a noisy sensor. The viewfinder of the A100 is even smaller than that of the K100D too.

QuoteQuote:
e510; Come on, it is a nice entry level camera... but compared with K10, it is just out of its league
Oly fans will say different things.

QuoteQuote:
D400/XTi... LoL, at K10 pricetag, its ergonomy&features&performance are a joke...
The K10D has great features and ergonomics, I agree. But the image quality and accuracy of the 400D are better. What are more important anyway?

QuoteQuote:
D40/D40x.. .What was wrong with screwdriver??
The only wrong thing is that it will allow old Nikonians to use their old AF lenses. See?

QuoteQuote:
D80... Very nice camera indeed...
But I know you folks will say the K10D is better.

QuoteQuote:
Well thats it, enough for the first post...

PS. Hi guys, was reading ya' all for a while, was about time to register...
Welcome here. I think it is a very nice Pentax place.
09-10-2007, 05:19 AM   #42
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Loooooooooong post. Make yourself some tea before reading.

Complaining about what the company is or isn't doing is a popular pastime, but one that's never going to go down well here... it would go down even less well on other Pentax forums where people get overly defensive as if you were insulting their family or offending their religion.

Sites like this are part discussion forum but part fan site too. RiceHigh will no doubt have discovered this when he went over to Canon forums and came up with a list of "issues" with his 5D just like he did here... they didn't like it either... and now whenever he comes back here he's a traitor, spy, infidel...

But camera ownership is not a religion. It's possible to own more than one system, and to have problems with them, without being part of some evil anti-Pentaxian conspiracy. If we're going to feel the need to constantly look with suspicion on anyone who criticises Pentax and their equipment, we may as well be on DPreview "discussing" with the fanatical Canon and Nikon users there.

If RiceHigh was "anti-Pentaxian" he wouldn't still own Pentax gear. It's really that simple. As much as some would like to believe it, Canon and Nikon do not need paid double-agents to get people to look at them instead of Pentax.

-

With that said, RiceHigh, frankly I think you expect far too much from camera companies. You find and worry about minor complaints and 'issues', most of which never bother the vast majority of us. I'm afraid that whatever system you go for, you will not be completely happy, and your fellow users will not be happy to hear what you have to say about it.

This is a shame, because occasionally you make criticisms which have a point. The first post in this thread was one of them. It's a point that people have tried to make before... Yes, we did and still would choose Pentax products. Yes, we're invested, and most of us are very happy with our choice. The question is, how many new customers, who are not yet invested in any system, will choose to invest in Pentax? The competitors have the marketing advantages, they're in all the ads, everyone sees them on TV, they're all over websites and magazines with their flashy new gear...
... and, I am going to say it yet again, we should not underestimate the importance of the "latest and greatest". Cameras now are like any other electronic gadget... most people want the newest and "best" technology. It's sad but it's true.

-

Personally, I take photographs. Yes, I know it's shocking, because clearly anyone who makes a criticism of the system is some kind of non-photographer who needs to go and "take some pictures" instead of "pixel-peeping". Well I do take photographs. But the K100d, just like any camera of its level, has it's limitations. The k10d would be an obvious "upgrade", but I am not happy with being limited to 1600 ISO and am not happy with the noise I would get at ISO 1600 (and yes I have tested it - with prints). If the K10d had a good ISO 1600 and 3200 (which is entirely achievable), believe me I would buy it in a heartbeat and not feel any need to "upgrade" for a good few years. But it doesn't. So yes, I would like to see what they will come up with next. If I have to wait until February next year to find out, then clearly I will wait... assuming it is February (why assume that? I don't know. Someone just told us to)... It was nice of Pentax to release that information to one or two people at lunch; if only they could give the rest of us a tiny morself of information as well.

Let's forget camera bodies for a while though. We know where Pentax is. In Japan. My real question is, where are the long lenses? You know, the ones longer than 200mm? And maybe faster than f/5.6 with it? Sorry, I know I shouldn't worry, I should go take some photos... except I can't get any lenses long and fast enough for the kind of shots I want to take. This doesn't matter to those of you who managed to get FA glass or Sigmas while you could. It matters to me though, and not only me. It is not a good situation for a dSLR system to have no current glass longer than 200mm. Will we have to wait until February to find out? Or will we have to wait until February to find out when we will find out? Any information forthcoming at those lunches?

-

OK, I'm off to take some photos now. I can take photos and complain as well; I guess I must be some kind of polymath. Oh and if you read this far you get a medal. Thankyou and apologies for the minutes of your life you won't get back
09-10-2007, 05:30 AM   #43
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Rice.... Why do you care if Pentax misses the boat? Go play with your precious 5D and leave us alone.

Although as a Canon Marketing Dept employee (not verified, this is just my personal suspicion)
it should be no surprise you badmouth Pentax so steadfastly.
09-10-2007, 06:01 AM   #44
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QuoteOriginally posted by RiceHigh Quote
No problem. So I let you know. Your assumption was wrong because I was already an adult when I first touched on a K1000!
Then it must have been something older... There definitly has to be a reason for so much bitter talk conserning Pentax... I mean just take a look at the site you call "Pentax blog" (and should be called "Pentax spitting arena")... What I mean is, just read titles of your topics... "SDM = More AF Errors?" "De-centering Defects of Pentax Lenses", "Underexposure Tendency of K10D and K100D"... bla bla bla and dozens more... ONLY the negative stuff, where are posts like "K10D won every major camera award this year", or a major news like this one, from FotoColor:

In the recent German FotoColor is a test of vibration reduction systems. The Sony A100, the Pentax K10D, the D80 with the 18-200VR and the 30D with 17-55IS were tested. The test was done with a shaker. A movement similar to camera shake was applyed with a frequency of 2 Hz and 4 Hz. The focal lenght was about 35 mm (equivalent), the time was 1/2sec and 1/4 sec. First a picture was done without shake, than with shake and shake reduction.
The sharpness of the reference picture was compared to the shaked camera with shake reduction. The resulting sharpness was still:
Pentax K10D 85%
D80 + 18-200VR 78%
30D + 17-55IS 77%
Sony A100 51%
in comparison to the 100% of the unshaked camera.

This result is in controdiction to the normal opinion, that in lens stabilisation is better than in body SR.


Isn't that a mention worthy topic? I think so, and yet you call your self objective, and still do nothing but spiting on Pentax gear, cameras&lenses..

QuoteOriginally posted by RiceHigh Quote
So, what is a *better* Pentax DSLR at a higher price tag?
There isnt any... so you cant compare it... BTW. D300 is a piece of thit compared to new 1Ds mk3... write a topic about that...

QuoteOriginally posted by RiceHigh Quote
Higher frame rate, live view function, ultrasonic dust protection, larger mon, new image processor, higher bit RAW and so on.
Wow, live view... buy a P&S if you want that useless feature... BTW. Compare list of changes between D200&D300 and 30D&40D... The only thing I can say is that Nikon D300 whipes the floor with 40D. 40D is another Canon product desinged very carefully not to give customers 2 much for "only" 1200+ USD... Bigger screen with same resolution, wow really revolutionary, still only 9 AF spots, still no decent viewfinder , still no weather seal... blah...

And btw. Canon dust removal is as crappy as the Pentay one... Yet, when a useless feture is installed in a Pentax camera, you have the need to yell it as loud as you can (and should, because they really need to work on it)... but when the same useless thing is installed in 40D, then it is a GRAT NEW FEATURE... and you dare to call your self objective? come on...

QuoteOriginally posted by RiceHigh Quote
The A100 is totally outdated with an outdated which is inferior in noise at high ISO. At least the image processor is unable to handle such a noisy sensor. The viewfinder of the A100 is even smaller than that of the K100D too.
Viewfinder on 400D&XTi is also a crap... and yet, if it is installed in a Canon camera... then it doesnt matter... great thinking

QuoteOriginally posted by RiceHigh Quote
Oly fans will say different things.
e510 is a really nice camera... but VERY inferior to K10 (start with WS, viewfinder, and yes, NOISE also)...


QuoteOriginally posted by RiceHigh Quote
The K10D has great features and ergonomics, I agree. But the image quality and accuracy of the 400D are better. What are more important anyway
Do not agree with you... ISO 1600 performanse isn't all you know...

QuoteOriginally posted by RiceHigh Quote
The only wrong thing is that it will allow old Nikonians to use their old AF lenses. See?
Nope I dont see it... it is gone, removed... so it will not allow old Nikonians to use old AF lenses... Great thing to do to your loyal community...

QuoteOriginally posted by RiceHigh Quote
But I know you folks will say the K10D is better.
And we will not lie...

QuoteOriginally posted by RiceHigh Quote
Welcome here. I think it is a very nice Pentax place.
It allready feels like home...
09-10-2007, 06:04 AM   #45
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Once again...

He still uses Pentax and plays with his K100d as well as his "precious 5D". He went on Canon forums pointing out 'issues' with the 5D just like he did here. And it wasn't him who brought up the 5D in this thread, it was Pentaxians who felt the need to bash him over the head with said 5D for daring to make another criticism.

And, once again, Canon does not need to pay anyone to persuade people not to look at Pentax. The power of marketing ensures that. As much as we would like to believe it, Canon are not looking here thinking "Oh my, we have to get those people to stop looking at Pentax and come over to us if we're going to survive"...

I've given my view on why RiceHigh will never be happy with any system and never be accepted on any forum. But no doubt I will be considered his accomplice in the Canikon anti-Pentax conspiracy now for defending him

Last edited by ZaphodB; 09-10-2007 at 06:10 AM.
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