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09-10-2007, 10:44 PM   #76
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QuoteOriginally posted by Tom Lusk Quote
I find myself in the bizarre position of being in agreement with RH.

To label the K10D as a Pro-level camera?

I don't believe even Pentax (the company) would make that statement.

From what I've seen, there is a relatively small group of photographers (as compared to Pro Canon and Nikon users) that make a living using Pentax equipment. The two that I've noticed (through this forum only) are fashion photographers - whose needs are quite different from many of us, and, apparently, in the completely controlled conditions of a studio, the 10D can do the job.

My guess is that for every fashion photographer, there are dozens or even hundreds of non-fashion photographers (sports/landscape/wildlife/photojournalism). I might be way out in left field here, but I don't think so.

It would be hard to argue that the 10D is not a great value for value-conscious consumers. Maybe even impossible - I know I wouldn't try it.

But let us not inflate its abilities to the levels of real Pro cameras.
Is expert close enough to pro??????
TIPA | Technical Image Press Association | Awards 2007
At least some think it is "good enough" Guess it just depends on what type of pro you are/want to be.
And to comment to someone else somewhere in this thread, I believe the Canon 5d is NOT considered a pro model either....

09-10-2007, 11:48 PM   #77
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QuoteOriginally posted by jeffkrol Quote
Is expert close enough to pro??????
TIPA | Technical Image Press Association | Awards 2007
Mr. 110, you've provided only 1/3rd of the story and according to your own theory, the sample size is actually too small ! (so nothing is worth mentioning or not even to say to be trustable)

The K10D actually wins all the 3 major prizes for the European DSLR, TIPA Award and the Japanese Camera Grand Prix of the Year.

But, then, so.. What?

Since Pentax has not won any major award or prize since the MZ-5 in 1995 until the K10D now. So, I bet the K10D can go strong for another twelve years until the next "real thing" comes (in 2019?)! ;-D LOL!

QuoteQuote:
And to comment to someone else somewhere in this thread, I believe the Canon 5d is NOT considered a pro model either....
Me too. My 5D is just used as a P&S camera in my hands and I shoot jpegs mostly with it. In contrast, with all my Pentax DSLRs, I shoot in RAW almost 100% of time and have spent tremendous of time in Post Processing these RAW files to yield "great" looking results. I think my Pentax DSLRs must be a more professional camera for each of them as I use them much more professionally!
09-11-2007, 12:25 AM   #78
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QuoteOriginally posted by RiceHigh Quote
Me too. My 5D is just used as a P&S camera in my hands and I shoot jpegs mostly with it. In contrast, with all my Pentax DSLRs, I shoot in RAW almost 100% of time and have spent tremendous of time in Post Processing these RAW files to yield "great" looking results. I think my Pentax DSLRs must be a more professional camera for each of them as I use them much more professionally!
Thank the Lord for that World class photo button on 5D...
09-11-2007, 02:43 AM   #79
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Where are these CHEAP lensES??????????????

The OMG it is another :where's pentax thread?? Is because there are NO NEW LENSEs.......

OMG is when old lenses are selling above NEW Nikons........I have finally faced it that EVenthough the K10D is by far the best bang for the buck.....there are not enough lenses to go around, especially on the long end......I was using a friend's D200...and i wasn't impressed, until I played with the 18-400 nikkor which she got for $800.....How much would that lens go for in PEntax????? Better yet, if you could even find it.....Please no "definitely sell/give me your pentax equipment".........I will keep what I have, but Nikon is SUPPORTING there old, new,, and newest bodies with Lenses........Pentax from what I have seen....has not even come close to fullfilling lens demand

09-11-2007, 04:11 AM   #80
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QuoteOriginally posted by rdrum76 Quote
Where are these CHEAP lensES??????????????
You want cheap lenses with a nice range.... what's wrong with Sigma&Tamron's 70-300... or new Tamron 18-250?

Cryin' for long DA* glass I can understand (there is little or no alternative), but the budget segment seems to be nicely covered by third party manufacturers. Having announced 17-70&55-300 today would be nice, but somehow i doubt they will bring us any kind of revolution. So in the mean time, you really have the alternative...
09-11-2007, 05:06 AM   #81
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I think Pentax is doing fine.

I believe that Pentax is making a smart strategic move. Maybe not intentionally but by happenstance.

Let's face it. I like my Pentax camera, but the Pentax brand can NOT compete with Canon and Nikon for publicity. That's a fact.

If Pentax were to launch new cameras in close proximity with Canon and Nikon they wouldn't get the needed publicity. All the general population would remember were Canon and Nikon.

By putting the release off for a few months or longer they will get the full attention when they DO release new models.
We can also get back to the point that the K10D is not old yet. It will keep selling, though perhaps not so good, for a while yet. The K10D got released in Norway in January/February -07. So 'here' it's still a new camera and it still performs very well.

I also believe that they may have, should or will learn something from Canon about how to do a proper release. A press release should be followed up by product delivery ASAP.

I hope they have learned from the DA* mistake and play their cards tight, such that the next press release will be followed by a product within 1-2 weeks.

Regards,
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09-11-2007, 05:57 AM   #82
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I just wish people would quit comparing the K10D to cameras that cost double its price and upwards.

Is it perfect? Hell no, there are flaws with it that annoy me. But I got a weather sealed, image stabilized camera with a lot of functionality, and a DA* lens for under $2000 Australian. You know how much that would cost me to get in Canon or Nikon? You have to go to "L" glass to get weather sealing in Canon, and the 40D still isn't sealed, so upwards you go to the pro models! And Nikon can't even agree on what lenses of theirs are sealed or not, or how well they are sealed!

Ricehigh just picks on ridiculous points that really rarely EVER effect the final images, and I'll be damned if I can find any photos from him that make me care about his opinions.

Its like some backyard handyman with a racing car up on blocks or on a dyno, testing, testing, testing, then telling the driver that the car is a piece of crap and he should use another brand. Meanwhile, the driver just won his 5th race of the day, or at worst had a lot of fun competing with his "inferior" car.
09-11-2007, 06:16 AM   #83
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QuoteOriginally posted by RiceHigh Quote
Mr. 110, you've provided only 1/3rd of the story and according to your own theory, the sample size is actually too small ! (so nothing is worth mentioning or not even to say to be trustable)
Actually that is just results. How many judges is the sample size...
AND it is 110................. And............to.........make..........it .............easy..............for ............you........to ..........understand.........I .......will........
talk............real..........slow.............READ............THIS............AND..... PAY...ATTENTION .......TO .............. NUMBER.......3
5D: In-Camera Meter Calibration? [Archive] - Open Photography Forums
Doug Kerr
May 30th, 2006, 03:20 PM
Hi, Amit,

This area is more complicated that one might think.

A short answer is this:

1. The internal meter is generally calibrated consistently with the applicable ISO standrds. That is, the aperture/shutter speed combination it chooses (indicates) is consistent with what one would expect for a meter calibrated under ISO standards.

2. In fact, the sensitivity of the sensor, when set to "ISO 100", would probably be rated in a test under the applicable ISO standard at about ISO 125-135

3. The implication of this is that the camera in metered operation will provide an expsure on the sensor about 0.4 stop "hot" compared to what is contemplated by the ISO standards.

4. The ISO standards, taken together, provide an expsure result that, in effect, allows a 1/2 stop headroom to prevent blowing out of the highlights in the case that the scene being metered has a substantially lower average reflectance than is contemplated in the meter calibration.

From here on this is just my conjecture.

5. I suspect that Canon feels, because of the fact that the Evaluative metering system is smarter than the metering system contemplated by the ISO standard (which is just based on the detemination oif average scene luminace), it does a better job of outguessing the highlights. Therefore the 1/2 stop headroom bulit into the ISO standards isn't needed. So evidently they decided to "burn" it.

6. They could have done this by adopting a hotter "calibration" of the exposure metering system than called for by the ISO stadanrd. But if they did, then a photographer who used an external exposure meter (calibrated in accordance with the ISO standard) would get a different exposure recomendation than for the metering system in the camera. This would have caused a lot of consternation.

7. Therfore, apparently, they decided to burn the headroom by underating the ISO sensitivity of the sensor system.

So to answer your question: The expsure meter in the camera is probably "accurate". But that's not the whole story.

If you want your external expsure meter to recommen an expsure that will give a result consistent with what you get with the in-camera metering, you need to set the ISO sensitivity on teh meter to teh face vaolue set on teh camera - oif you set the camera to ISO 100, set teh externqal meter to ISO 100.

If you want some more information on who this works, you might want to look at my tutorial article, "Exposure Meter Calibration", available here:

Articles by Doug Kerr


QuoteOriginally posted by RiceHigh Quote
The K10D actually wins all the 3 major prizes for the European DSLR, TIPA Award and the Japanese Camera Grand Prix of the Year.

But, then, so.. What?

Since Pentax has not won any major award or prize since the MZ-5 in 1995 until the K10D now. So, I bet the K10D can go strong for another twelve years until the next "real thing" comes (in 2019?)! ;-D LOL!
Again nothing but gloom and doom and predictions (as is your style) of disaster and failure. If anything is too dark it's your attitude.





QuoteOriginally posted by RiceHigh Quote
Me too. My 5D is just used as a P&S camera in my hands and I shoot jpegs mostly with it. In contrast, with all my Pentax DSLRs, I shoot in RAW almost 100% of time and have spent tremendous of time in Post Processing these RAW files to yield "great" looking results. I think my Pentax DSLRs must be a more professional camera for each of them as I use them much more professionally!
You would have been better off w/ a P&S. Then you wouldn't even have to "bother" w/ the drudgery of switching a lens ever. And PP is usually NOT as time consuming as you make it out to be. Only depends on how you approach it.
Most Pentax shots just have compressed contrast. Takes a second to do a contrast boost and if needed (and admittidly most of the time at defaults due to the metering adhereing to the ANSI standard and NOT cheating on the ISO ala Canon ) an exposure boost. And to use a worn out analogy, Ansel Adams probably spent much more time "tweaking" his RAW files (film) then just taking the shot. MAYBE he wouldn't have to in the digital age BUT it is part of the mystique.
Now since you seem as busy as me, this "time" seems to be plenty available.
The sad thing is your pride will not allow you to EVER see your error in thinking.....


Last edited by jeffkrol; 09-11-2007 at 06:51 AM.
09-11-2007, 06:43 AM   #84
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QuoteOriginally posted by jeffkrol Quote
Most Pentax shots just have compressed contrast. Takes a second to do a contrast boost and if needed (and admittidly most of the time at defaults due to the metering adhereing to the ANSI standard and NOT cheating on the ISO ala Canon ) an exposure boost.
Mr. 110, why "adhering to ANSI standard" implies "exposure boost"? Why a correct ISO *sensitivity* (same as rated) will lead to "compressed contrast"?? Why exposure level and sensitivity are something to be deal with the contrast and why sensitivity will affect exposure??? Isn't that the light meter has already known the sensitivity in use, i.e., the ISO speed?!

Pls enlighten all of us, my guru!

QuoteQuote:
And to use a worn out analogy, Ansel Adams probably spent much more time "tweaking" his RAW files (film) then just taking the shot. MAYBE he wouldn't have to in the digital age BUT it is part of the mystique.
Now since you seem as busy as me, this "time" seems to be plenty available.
Then, digital Pentaxians are probably modern Ansel Adams. Great, we have all become big gurus!
09-11-2007, 06:58 AM   #85
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QuoteOriginally posted by RiceHigh Quote
Mr. 110, why "adhering to ANSI standard" implies "exposure boost"? Why a correct ISO *sensitivity* (same as rated) will lead to "compressed contrast"?? Why exposure level and sensitivity are something to be deal with the contrast and why sensitivity will affect exposure??? Isn't that the light meter has already known the sensitivity in use, i.e., the ISO speed?!

Pls enlighten all of us, my guru!



Then, digital Pentaxians are probably modern Ansel Adams. Great, we have all become big gurus!
What the hell are you babbeling about. The WHOLE point is that the Canon Exposes "1/2 stop HOT". Period. End of discussion. No arguement possible. And when one is wrong w/ such a basic concept, I don't really bother w/ anything else they say. Contrast/gamma is nothing but a curve applied to the data and can be whatever the designer wants. RAW data is ugly dark, and linear. No right or wrong, unless it is "what you don't like"..... See, you listen and read and don't comprehend. ALL you lens measurebations are WRONG...period. Subtract a 1/2 stop from all your data.....PERIOD.....
Sorry I really though you were just smart and misguided. Apparently the smart part is incorrect.
09-11-2007, 07:04 AM   #86
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QuoteOriginally posted by jeffkrol Quote
The sad thing is your pride will not allow you to EVER see your error in thinking.....
So, I have asked you the questions. Forget about the Canon first as do remember that here is a PENTAX Forum. Please explain to all of us why an absolutely correct ISO (which Pentax DSLRs have) will lead to all those problems mentioned by you, i.e., "compressed contrast", images that needs "exposure boost" and "ANSI standards" means there will be "exposure boost" required and so on..

I AM asking you for your repeatedly raised points as emphasized. We just wish to know WHY are those? But you even don't answer your own raised *questions*, how can all of us here know what you are THINKING about?
09-11-2007, 07:07 AM   #87
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Sorry Ricehigh, but I had a real 5D vs K10D battle which was documented in the photo gallery of this site and the 5D quality stinks IMO. It makes a great portrait or studio camera but an awful camera for everything else. Noise levels are close to that of the K10D until ISO 1600, the jpeg quality is soft unless boosted to max on the 5D, the images always have no contrast from the 5D, but that is what I hate about Canon glass.

It's going to have to take 50 Ricehigh's to change my mind about what my "real world" tests have proven me especially in the land of shake reduction, IQ and ergonomics. I'm much happier with the 40D in those regards because at least the 40D can focus properly over the awful focus confirmation of the 5D.

In words the 5D focuses like a beaver between two dams to build and that was from 2 different bodies so don't tell me it was just a bad body. Not too mention I work in a camera store and see all these bright eyed Canon users (lemmings) that bring in there pictures of the same darned thing and they think it's awesome, but it's just another crappy picture of another gopher, or squirrel, or native bird. I've seen 2 great shots from a 5D from 16 customers that have one. The best shots I've seen were from XTi users and K10D users (they are more original thinkers IMO).

Oh and speaking of post-processing, to get my 5D images to look anything like I see on the internet I had to do 30 to 40 minutes of post processing so don't lie to me about the Pentax system Ricehigh because I truly tested things and my results are easy to see and understand because they are based on real world examples from a photographer who took the time to actually test things.

The 40D is more professional than the 5D IMO because the focus is accurate and much faster than the 5D, weather sealed (like K10D from a year ago), wireless battery grip available, has PC output (finally), 3in screen, the canon worthless live view, and it just has a better body than the 5D, plus a pop-up flash is very useful, but some people frown and say pop-ups only belong in an amateurs hands, but I guess technology is behind for professionals.

So Ricehigh, how was the vacation? Aparently not relaxing enough since you still feel the need to ramble on about your fake testimony and artificial reasonings. LOL
09-11-2007, 07:07 AM   #88
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QuoteOriginally posted by jeffkrol Quote
Sorry I really though you were just smart and misguided. Apparently the smart part is incorrect.
The sad part is, he probably really IS smart. The problem comes when he begins to believe he's smarter than the rest of the world. He's not, but he seems to think he is. And even if he were, who cares? Do you care if Ansel Adams was smarter than everyone else? Or is it his images that matter, regardless of how his camera performed on the test charts? Rice is the ultimate measurbator. That's okay, if that's where he gets his kicks. But don't pretend for a second that he's anything more than a Monday morning quarterback. Someone who lacks the courage to particpate in professional sports because it might reveal the truth to them, but who LOVES to sit on the sidelines and say, "I could do that." Dude...you couldn't. Not in your wildest dreams with a 10 yard headstart.
09-11-2007, 07:17 AM   #89
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QuoteOriginally posted by RiceHigh Quote
So, I have asked you the questions. Forget about the Canon first as do remember that here is a PENTAX Forum. Please explain to all of us why an absolutely correct ISO (which Pentax DSLRs have) will lead to all those problems mentioned by you, i.e., "compressed contrast", images that needs "exposure boost" and "ANSI standards" means there will be "exposure boost" required and so on..

I AM asking you for your repeatedly raised points as emphasized. We just wish to know WHY are those? But you even don't answer your own raised *questions*, how can all of us here know what you are THINKING about?
I presented evidence of a great error on your part and you procced to deflect the question. Another personality pattern that is detrimental to your credibility. Dig that hole faster why don't you..... Even old Kodak grey cards said "meter off me and ADD 1/2 stop" As I'm not a Pentax designer, how they designed their contrast curve is not my concern. Only how I will use it to get what I want out of it....
Suddeny it is taboo to mention Canon???? NOW you make me laugh.......
09-11-2007, 07:29 AM   #90
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QuoteOriginally posted by codiac2600 Quote
Sorry Ricehigh, but I had a real 5D vs K10D battle which was documented in the photo gallery of this site and the 5D quality stinks IMO.
Any direct link to be provided?

QuoteQuote:
So Ricehigh, how was the vacation? Aparently not relaxing enough since you still feel the need to ramble on about your fake testimony and artificial reasonings. LOL
The vacation is a nice one except I was busy enough to visit so many people and places. Hawaii is a good and beautiful place and everywhere are clean. It's so relaxing. People are nice too.

Well, for the first time, I haven't brought any Pentax gear. And as such, there was nothing to be rambled about :-)

Btw, in the below link are two of the pictures taken from my Hawaii trip. Just look at the two pictures and forget about my article, so as to keep everything good! ;-D LOL..

RiceHigh's Pentax Blog: Underexposure Tendency of K10D and K100D
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