Improving K7 dynamic range

Kirivon · 10-11-2010, 09:09 PM

Originally posted by paperbag846

Well the .PEF Jeff game me was actually brighter then the JPEG he posted... he developed his shot darker because that is how he wanted to show it. His .PEF was actually exposed to the right, perfectly I might add, with no clipping and loads of detail in the sky and the landscape. Expose to the right means no clipping on the right side. If you are clipping on both sides, you are not exposing to the right. If you clip in the shadows, it often does not matter nearly as much as clipped highlights (in most cases). But SOMETIMES preserving the highlights leads to a lot of dark areas in the picture! This is OK... if the histogram shows information in those dark areas (and not simply shadow clipping) then you will be able to work some magic in post,.

I didn't look at the PEF since the link was posted after your post, but I just pulled it down and..

I think we have different definitions of "expose to the right." Mine is as follows:

Here is an article that covers the expose to the left vs right debate and the pros and cons of each. He pretty much eloquently sums up what I was trying to convey earlier: "You should expose as bright an image as you can without clipping."

Quote:

In your example, you maybe maximized the spread of the histogram without really playing with really pushing the range. The picture is good, but I think there would be some techniques you could use (split toning, saturation/luminescence tweaks, and contrast enhancement) to really make it pop. RAW file you posted looks about right, but maybe a little blown.

My wide DR example took literally 30 seconds to accomplish. The OP was looking for more DR, but didn't really want the perceived work and inconvenience of raw. Thus I was giving examples of the extra headroom in RAW files to try to convince him to switch. As for the techniques, many of them can be performed on JPG images as well, though with reduced effectiveness.

JeffJS · 10-11-2010, 09:29 PM

Actually, I don't pay any attention to histograms for reasons I outline here.

https://www.pentaxforums.com/forums/general-photography/110784-ettr-question.html#post1142165

If I ETTR, it is with a meter and I've done so to make whites, truly white (or as close as possible). I'll go to the left for blacks for exactly the same reason. That's the reason I use Spot metering instead of the others (CW, Matrix). Some think I'm a fool for using such antiquated technology on a modern dSLR but it works for me. In the case of the photo I used for example in this thread, it's entirely possible that I Metered to the right. I couldn't tell you exactly what spot I used but the histograms and blinkies on my review screen are turned off. If ETTR with the histogram works for anyone, by all means, use it. There's more than one way to snap a photo

**Rondec** · 10-12-2010, 03:35 AM

The biggest thing with the K7 is to keep iso as low as possible. You really have excellent DR at iso 100-400, but above that it starts dropping off considerably. Often, if you want a well exposed sky, you have to under expose the rest of your image a little (sometimes a lot) and then pull up the shadows in post processing. This really works well if you are at low iso, but don't try it above 800. ETTR to the right is a way of reducing noise, not so much of improving dynamic range IMO.

paperbag846 · 10-12-2010, 06:49 AM

Originally posted by Rondec

ETTR to the right is a way of reducing noise, not so much of improving dynamic range IMO.

Sorry for the confusion, I used Adobe's DNG converter and the histogram looked completely different! Before, when I imported, it resembled the histogram below, but now it resembles the one above!

In any case, I think the most important thing (not being ETTR, although it can help) is simply to control clipping. If you have zero clipping (or at least, no highlight clipping) you can post-process your image to get as much dynamic range as you might want. ETTR is a way of lowering your ISO, and the lower the ISO, the better.

Happy shooting!

Last edited by paperbag846; 11-23-2010 at 10:47 AM.

Tony3d · 10-12-2010, 07:43 AM

I know I'll probably sound really stupid, but what does ETTR stand for?

JeffJS · 10-12-2010, 07:43 AM

Expose To The Right. The idea being as a general rule, you want your histogram to be centered to the right of the diagram.

FullertonImages · 10-12-2010, 01:59 PM

Originally posted by JohnBee

The K-7 has very good DR at nominal ISO (100-200 range).
All you need to do to tap into it, is shoot in RAW and preserve your highlights.
You'll have no problems keeping-up with a D700 FF.

It's true. THe K-7 has extraordinary amounts of information in the shadows. And more importantly, when shooting RAW, it has the kind of information that can be pulled out pretty aggressively without adding much noise. And the noise reduction in LR3 is so much better than LR2, and it sure seems to have the K-7's number in this regard. Since switching to LR3 and getting pretty aggressive with pulling out shadow detail and applying moderate NR to smooth things out. It's not uncommon for me to crank the Recovery, pull the exposure slider way back, push the brightness over 100, put the Fill Light over 50 the Blacks up to 40 or so, apply a little bit of NR and sharpening, and have an image that looks great at 100%, of a scene that looked like it should have needed HDR.

Like JohnBee said, just make sure you preserve the highlights, and you'll be surprised what you can pull out of the shadows. Just be careful that you don't delve too greedily and too deep. There are older and fouler things than orcs in the deep parts of your image.

glanglois · 10-12-2010, 02:47 PM

Originally posted by JeffJS

Expose To The Right. The idea being as a general rule, you want your histogram to be centered to the right of the diagram.

Did you type that exactly as you meant it?

My (minimal) understanding of ETTR says that you expose the image so the highlights you're interested in keeping are as far to the right as possible without falling off the cliff, i.e., losing them to clipping.

The center of the exposure range, then, could be anywhere - right, left, or in the middle of the scale. ETTR doesn't care about the center but only the "interesting" highlights.

Did I get that wrong?

paperbag846 · 10-12-2010, 03:27 PM

Originally posted by glanglois

Did you type that exactly as you meant it?

My (minimal) understanding of ETTR says that you expose the image so the highlights you're interested in keeping are as far to the right as possible without falling off the cliff, i.e., losing them to clipping.

The center of the exposure range, then, could be anywhere - right, left, or in the middle of the scale. ETTR doesn't care about the center but only the "interesting" highlights.

Did I get that wrong?

You are both describing the same thing. The easiest way to remember is...

I want the tip of my histogram to be as close to the right as possible, without touching it.

This will likely leave the "lump" of the histogram somewhere right of center

.

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10-11-2010, 09:09 PM	#16
Kirivon Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Colorado Posts: 173	Originally posted by paperbag846 Well the .PEF Jeff game me was actually brighter then the JPEG he posted... he developed his shot darker because that is how he wanted to show it. His .PEF was actually exposed to the right, perfectly I might add, with no clipping and loads of detail in the sky and the landscape. Expose to the right means no clipping on the right side. If you are clipping on both sides, you are not exposing to the right. If you clip in the shadows, it often does not matter nearly as much as clipped highlights (in most cases). But SOMETIMES preserving the highlights leads to a lot of dark areas in the picture! This is OK... if the histogram shows information in those dark areas (and not simply shadow clipping) then you will be able to work some magic in post,. I didn't look at the PEF since the link was posted after your post, but I just pulled it down and.. I think we have different definitions of "expose to the right." Mine is as follows: Here is an article that covers the expose to the left vs right debate and the pros and cons of each. He pretty much eloquently sums up what I was trying to convey earlier: "You should expose as bright an image as you can without clipping." Quote: In your example, you maybe maximized the spread of the histogram without really playing with really pushing the range. The picture is good, but I think there would be some techniques you could use (split toning, saturation/luminescence tweaks, and contrast enhancement) to really make it pop. RAW file you posted looks about right, but maybe a little blown. My wide DR example took literally 30 seconds to accomplish. The OP was looking for more DR, but didn't really want the perceived work and inconvenience of raw. Thus I was giving examples of the extra headroom in RAW files to try to convince him to switch. As for the techniques, many of them can be performed on JPG images as well, though with reduced effectiveness.

10-11-2010, 09:29 PM	#17
JeffJS Inactive Account Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Michigan, USA Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 7,484	Actually, I don't pay any attention to histograms for reasons I outline here. https://www.pentaxforums.com/forums/general-photography/110784-ettr-question.html#post1142165 If I ETTR, it is with a meter and I've done so to make whites, truly white (or as close as possible). I'll go to the left for blacks for exactly the same reason. That's the reason I use Spot metering instead of the others (CW, Matrix). Some think I'm a fool for using such antiquated technology on a modern dSLR but it works for me. In the case of the photo I used for example in this thread, it's entirely possible that I Metered to the right. I couldn't tell you exactly what spot I used but the histograms and blinkies on my review screen are turned off. If ETTR with the histogram works for anyone, by all means, use it. There's more than one way to snap a photo

10-12-2010, 03:35 AM	#18
Rondec Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Gladys, Virginia Photos: Gallery Posts: 27,653	The biggest thing with the K7 is to keep iso as low as possible. You really have excellent DR at iso 100-400, but above that it starts dropping off considerably. Often, if you want a well exposed sky, you have to under expose the rest of your image a little (sometimes a lot) and then pull up the shadows in post processing. This really works well if you are at low iso, but don't try it above 800. ETTR to the right is a way of reducing noise, not so much of improving dynamic range IMO.

10-12-2010, 06:49 AM	#19
paperbag846 Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Photos: Gallery Posts: 2,395	Originally posted by Rondec ETTR to the right is a way of reducing noise, not so much of improving dynamic range IMO. Sorry for the confusion, I used Adobe's DNG converter and the histogram looked completely different! Before, when I imported, it resembled the histogram below, but now it resembles the one above! In any case, I think the most important thing (not being ETTR, although it can help) is simply to control clipping. If you have zero clipping (or at least, no highlight clipping) you can post-process your image to get as much dynamic range as you might want. ETTR is a way of lowering your ISO, and the lower the ISO, the better. Happy shooting! Last edited by paperbag846; 11-23-2010 at 10:47 AM.

10-12-2010, 07:43 AM	#20
Tony3d Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Orlando Florida Posts: 487 Original Poster	I know I'll probably sound really stupid, but what does ETTR stand for?

10-12-2010, 07:43 AM	#21
JeffJS Inactive Account Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Michigan, USA Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 7,484	Expose To The Right. The idea being as a general rule, you want your histogram to be centered to the right of the diagram.

10-12-2010, 01:59 PM	#22
FullertonImages Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Boulder, CO Posts: 883	Originally posted by JohnBee The K-7 has very good DR at nominal ISO (100-200 range). All you need to do to tap into it, is shoot in RAW and preserve your highlights. You'll have no problems keeping-up with a D700 FF. It's true. THe K-7 has extraordinary amounts of information in the shadows. And more importantly, when shooting RAW, it has the kind of information that can be pulled out pretty aggressively without adding much noise. And the noise reduction in LR3 is so much better than LR2, and it sure seems to have the K-7's number in this regard. Since switching to LR3 and getting pretty aggressive with pulling out shadow detail and applying moderate NR to smooth things out. It's not uncommon for me to crank the Recovery, pull the exposure slider way back, push the brightness over 100, put the Fill Light over 50 the Blacks up to 40 or so, apply a little bit of NR and sharpening, and have an image that looks great at 100%, of a scene that looked like it should have needed HDR. Like JohnBee said, just make sure you preserve the highlights, and you'll be surprised what you can pull out of the shadows. Just be careful that you don't delve too greedily and too deep. There are older and fouler things than orcs in the deep parts of your image.

10-12-2010, 02:47 PM	#23
glanglois Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Madison, Wis., USA Posts: 1,506	Originally posted by JeffJS Expose To The Right. The idea being as a general rule, you want your histogram to be centered to the right of the diagram. Did you type that exactly as you meant it? My (minimal) understanding of ETTR says that you expose the image so the highlights you're interested in keeping are as far to the right as possible without falling off the cliff, i.e., losing them to clipping. The center of the exposure range, then, could be anywhere - right, left, or in the middle of the scale. ETTR doesn't care about the center but only the "interesting" highlights. Did I get that wrong?

10-12-2010, 03:27 PM	#24
paperbag846 Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Photos: Gallery Posts: 2,395	Originally posted by glanglois Did you type that exactly as you meant it? My (minimal) understanding of ETTR says that you expose the image so the highlights you're interested in keeping are as far to the right as possible without falling off the cliff, i.e., losing them to clipping. The center of the exposure range, then, could be anywhere - right, left, or in the middle of the scale. ETTR doesn't care about the center but only the "interesting" highlights. Did I get that wrong? You are both describing the same thing. The easiest way to remember is... I want the tip of my histogram to be as close to the right as possible, without touching it. This will likely leave the "lump" of the histogram somewhere right of center .