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11-20-2007, 07:28 PM   #76
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Now see what you did!!!

QuoteOriginally posted by borno Quote
I should have put my boots on
anyways a post at THE blog states my feelings re: this matter:
First the crummy babelfish translation and my request for a full translation:
Care to actually be useful and give us a better translation than:
Yesterday, the guest resulted in the company to play the family in view of the recent command to compare the attention the K10D list counter- picture to incline the question to send out the statement as follows, the full text:

Has gone on the market since K10D widely receives the user the attention, discusses the trade in this guest (Shanghai) the limited company to all attention to care about the guest results in the product the user to express the heartfelt gratitude!

The guest results in the company in line with take the user as this manner, photographs the portrait regarding user continuously nice use K10D to have the question which the level inclines, the guest discusses the trade (Shanghai) the limited company to pledge the user:

If the user discovered purchases regular PENTAX the K10D camera has this problem, may deliver to the guest discusses the trade authorization post-sale service center, free synthesis test and adjustment.The portrait occurs which in view of the K10D camera inclines the question, may lengthen 1 year warranty period service.

The guest discusses the trade (Shanghai) the limited company
Address: The Shanghai Xuhui area initiates the fine creek road 789 precious international squares 23D

.................................
BTW: It's all pretty meaningless. The errors could still be "within tolerance" but they decided to appease the squeaky wheels".
Pentax is not the only camera company w/ tilted viewfinders...
SEE THIS:
Canon EOS Forum: rebel XT sensor off/tilted .5 degrees relative to viewfinder framing - photo.net
Rebel XT sensor off/tilted .5 degrees relative to viewfinder framing

mark fieldsphoto.net patron, May 15, 2006; 12:47 p.m.

I have done a carefull study with the viewfinder on my rebel XT. the sensor/viewfinder alignment ia off by .5 degrees. It is not a focus or distortion (barrell/pincushion) issue as I do understand what those are about. I did a carefull tripod test with the bottom of the frame exactly lined up with a sqaure frame and the left bottom is tilted up(the entire frame is roated .5 out of "square". I do understand that the viewfinder shows about 94-95 % of what is actually captured in the file- that is not the issue. Every one of my images- particulalry those that involve angles and straight lines with horizon lines/curbs/windows etc require that I rotate my images in photoshop .5 degrees. It is easily noticeable. has anyone else had this issue and can canon fix it. Could I demand replacement body? It happens that because 5 % of what is in the files was not actually seen in the viewfinder (becuase its not a 100% accurate viewfinder) after I rotate the files .5 (to the left) I do not loose any of what i thought i was getting anyway but its still a hassle.. I just crop off that bit that i loose. Any ideas? I think I'd prefer to have it fixed or get a replacement. Your thoughts/ experience with same? Many thanks.

mark


Andy Radin, May 15, 2006; 02:19 p.m.

My Nikon N80 and D70 had the same problem. It's a problem in the viewfinder alignment, not the sensor (or film). Part of what makes a cheaper camera cheap is loose tolerance for things like this. However if you complain and send it back, it'll likely get fixed.

M Barbuphoto.net patron, May 16, 2006; 12:43 p.m.

I noticed this with my 20D, though I haven't measured the amount.
ECT,,,,ECT for all brands....
SOOOO... that's the way I see it. Down and dirty fast production for all brands. Is Pentax better or worse than the others of it's class (For multiple thousands my viewfinder better be in alignment.)???? Don't know.

November 20, 2007 11:51 AM

11-20-2007, 07:43 PM   #77
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QuoteOriginally posted by jeffkrol Quote
BTW: It's all pretty meaningless. The errors could still be "within tolerance" but they decided to appease the squeaky wheels".
Pentax is not the only camera company w/ tilted viewfinders...
SEE THIS:
Canon EOS Forum: rebel XT sensor off/tilted .5 degrees relative to viewfinder framing - photo.net
Rebel XT sensor off/tilted .5 degrees relative to viewfinder framing
Dismiss the problem all you like but it's still there and it's obviously in a significant number of Pentax's top DSLR model. Over the years I've owned many SLRs and a few DSLRs and my K10D finder has been far and away the worst aligned that I have ever experienced. It irritates me to the point that I could no longer use the camera so it's a problem and I know I'm not alone in my experience of this problem.
11-20-2007, 08:01 PM   #78
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not dismissing it at all, just putting it into perspective. It's up to each individual to decide for himself if it's an issue. What does this say to you re: the "state of the art"????
Re: D200 Grid Lines - Off? Not quite right?: Nikon D300/D200/D100 Forum: Digital Photography Review
TartarFan wrote:
> I set my camera on a tripod, lined up the grid lines in the
> viewfinder with the Horizon, and put it on interval timer.
>
> Yet when I upload the pictures, they are crooked.


I've yet to see a Nikon viewfinder perfectly aligned (try it without gridlines using the bottom edge of the viewable area as the "guide"; same problem). On one of my cameras it was so frustrating that I finally just created a Photoshop Action and lived with the reduced image size ;~(. The thing that's curious to me is that EVERY Nikon DSLR I've used has the problem in the same direction. You'd think if it were really an alignment problem that some viewfinders would slant left and some right.

--
Thom Hogan
author, Nikon Field Guide & Nikon Flash Guide
editor, Nikon DSLR Report
author, Complete Guides: D50, D70, D100, D200, D1 series, D2h, D2x, S2 Pro

Thom Hogan's Nikon Field Guide and Nikon Flash Guide
From the same thread, if anyones bothering:
Re: D200 Grid Lines - Off? Not quite right?: Nikon D300/D200/D100 Forum: Digital Photography Review
My F90x had this problem (with type-E VF), my F100 has it (with type-E VF), my Fuji S3 has it (with the integrated gridlines). With film I thought it would have something to do with the film mechanism but it seems it has not since these reports of D200 seems to verify that it continues with digital (also with other models than Fujifilms).


EDIT: As to another year warranty, that was Pentax's standard when you had a camera repaired. They guaranteed it for another year, and as far as I know NOT just the original repar. Still (for my own curiosity) would like a real unbiased translation of exactly what they said.
EDIT 2: My D is probably about 1 degree off, doesn't bother me the least, never checked my superprogram, spotmatic or KX.... MY opinion has not bearing on anyone elses.....but for those it bothers send it in......

Last edited by jeffkrol; 11-20-2007 at 08:34 PM.
11-20-2007, 08:18 PM   #79
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what did I do???

I sent in my k10d for an adjustment, if it was a nikon I sure would have sent it in also. .75 deg is a lot when you live on the water. I don't see the big deal (I guess hip boots would be a better choice)

11-20-2007, 08:36 PM   #80
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QuoteOriginally posted by borno Quote
I sent in my k10d for an adjustment, if it was a nikon I sure would have sent it in also. .75 deg is a lot when you live on the water. I don't see the big deal (I guess hip boots would be a better choice)
Arrrggg.. if ye had a peg leg you may be better off shaving a wee bit of wood...
11-21-2007, 12:40 AM   #81
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i went ahead and said the heck with it and boxed my k10d up tonight... I figure ill get it back sometime in February lol, maybe the end of jan if im lucky... it stinks that rush service isnt available... i bet its cause they are so backed up with all the leaning viewfinders haha! anyways, i thought i wanted my k10d for the holidays, but ill have my darkroom set up soon and i think doing black and white prints for the holidays will actually be more memorable... especially since ill be doing the shooting, developing, and printing all myself... i just hope they actually fix the viewfinder while they have it. ive hears storys about it not getting fixed, or them replacing the unit with one that has a viewfinder with the same problem... i sent in a letter describing the problem, along with a print i took of the bathroom mirror explaining that the bottom of the mirror was lined up perfect in the view finder when i took it, thus making the print lopsided to the right for them to see....
11-24-2007, 07:58 AM   #82
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Fixed K10D ?

Bonjour,

I received today my fixed K10D and rushed to perform tests.

The repair slip details 4 operations: CCD parallax adjustment 0,3°, image tests, computing programming, general check.

Here are the results :!:

I used the same protocol as before, described here. I used the remote + 3 seconds, and the shake-reduction system is off.


First batch of tests



Surprise, the picture is no longer horizontal while the K10D is horizontal! It is the opposite problem of the one I had before!



Good news , the viewfinder shows exactly what is capture by the image. I could rely on the viewfinder to check my picture is horizontal.

Bad news , the viewfinder and the image sensor are not longer aligned with the body of the K10D.


Second batch of tests

So I tried a second series of tests. Here, the K10D is aligned so the picture on the viewfinder is perfectly horizontal. To obtain that, I simply put a CD under the right part of the K10D body.



Here what I see on the viewfinder.



No surprise, the viewfinder and the picture are the same, and both are horizontal .




For better readability, full-size pictures are available here.


Conclusion

So I have mixed feelings:
  • I could trust the viewfinder now, I get what I see,
  • but I could no longer rely on the alignment given by the K10D body.
For me, this seems really strange :?

Shall I send my K10D back again and take no picture for one more month :?:

Last edited by rei_vilo; 11-25-2007 at 06:28 AM.
11-24-2007, 08:54 AM   #83
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QuoteOriginally posted by rei_vilo Quote
Bonjour,

I received today my fixed K10D and rushed to perform tests.

The repair slip details 4 operations: CCD parallax adjustment 0,3°, image tests, computing programming, general check.

Here are the results :!:

I used the same protocol as before, described here. I used the remote + 3 seconds, and the shake-reduction system is off.


First batch of tests
SNIP

Surprise, the picture is no longer horizontal while the K10D is horizontal! It is the opposite problem of the one I had before!

SNIP
Good news , the viewfinder shows exactly what is capture by the image. I could rely on the viewfinder to check my picture is horizontal.

Bad news , the viewfinder and the image sensor are not longer aligned with the body of the K10D.


Second batch of tests

So I tried a second series of tests. Here, the K10D is aligned so the picture on the viewfinder is perfectly horizontal. To obtain that, I simply put a CD under the right part of the K10D body.

SNIP

Here what I see on the viewfinder.

SNIP

No surprise, the viewfinder and the picture are the same, and both are horizontal .

SNIP


For better readability, full-size pictures are available :arrow: here.


Conclusion

So I have mixed feelings:
  • I could trust the viewfinder now, I get what I see,
  • but I could no longer rely on the alignment given by the K10D body.
For me, this seems really strange :?

Shall I send my K10D back again and take no picture for one more month :?:
Apparently it is easier to align the sensor to the VF than align the VF to the body. And apparently your original sensor was aligned w/ the body. Now it's not. I would call first before sending it in and see if you got a good explaination and reassurance that they can indeed correct the VF.
Personally as long as you can align the VF image there is no more big deal. You can rely on your eyes not a bubble level...

11-24-2007, 12:18 PM   #84
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QuoteOriginally posted by rei_vilo Quote


Conclusion

So I have mixed feelings:
  • I could trust the viewfinder now, I get what I see,
  • but I could no longer rely on the alignment given by the K10D body.
For me, this seems really strange :?
Thatīs interesting. My sensor was dead straight with the camera before I sent it in, but the viewfinder was way off. Now everything is in line; bottom of camera, VF and sensor. So the service guys obviously adjusted the VF in my case.

My VF was 1.03 degrees off and the sensor straight, so that may have been the reason why they didnīt touch my sensor. Just a thought....

// Mats
11-25-2007, 01:19 AM   #85
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What a measurbation!

What a measurabation! Simple, effective, clear, interestng and wonderful..! I shall include your post in my blog to share with all Pentaxians on the net! Well done and thumb up!

Well, for your case, I have an even more concise conclusion: Pentax has misaligned your CCD for an already misaligned viewfinder! Good job!(?) ;-)

QuoteOriginally posted by rei_vilo Quote
Bonjour,

I received today my fixed K10D and rushed to perform tests.

The repair slip details 4 operations: CCD parallax adjustment 0,3°, image tests, computing programming, general check.

Here are the results :!:

I used the same protocol as before, described here. I used the remote + 3 seconds, and the shake-reduction system is off.


First batch of tests



Surprise, the picture is no longer horizontal while the K10D is horizontal! It is the opposite problem of the one I had before!



Good news , the viewfinder shows exactly what is capture by the image. I could rely on the viewfinder to check my picture is horizontal.

Bad news , the viewfinder and the image sensor are not longer aligned with the body of the K10D.


Second batch of tests

So I tried a second series of tests. Here, the K10D is aligned so the picture on the viewfinder is perfectly horizontal. To obtain that, I simply put a CD under the right part of the K10D body.



Here what I see on the viewfinder.



No surprise, the viewfinder and the picture are the same, and both are horizontal .




For better readability, full-size pictures are available :arrow: here.


Conclusion

So I have mixed feelings:
  • I could trust the viewfinder now, I get what I see,
  • but I could no longer rely on the alignment given by the K10D body.
For me, this seems really strange :?

Shall I send my K10D back again and take no picture for one more month :?:
11-25-2007, 02:21 AM   #86
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QuoteOriginally posted by jeffkrol Quote
Apparently it is easier to align the sensor to the VF than align the VF to the body. And apparently your original sensor was aligned w/ the body. Now it's not. I would call first before sending it in and see if you got a good explaination and reassurance that they can indeed correct the VF.
Personally as long as you can align the VF image there is no more big deal. You can rely on your eyes not a bubble level...
Bonjour Jeffkrol,

Thank you for your message. Actually, this is exactly what I plan to do. I'll send a message to the Pentax repair-shop.

I'm very happy with getting what I see , but I'd like also to understand why I don't get all viewfinder + image + body aligned

Question is: are other K10D users affected with the same partial alignment?

Best regards,
11-25-2007, 02:30 AM   #87
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QuoteOriginally posted by RiceHigh Quote
What a measurabation! Simple, effective, clear, interestng and wonderful..! I shall include your post in my blog to share with all Pentaxians on the net! Well done and thumb up!

Well, for your case, I have an even more concise conclusion: Pentax has misaligned your CCD for an already misaligned viewfinder! Good job!(?) ;-)
Bonjour RiceHigh,

Yes, good job indeed

I edited my first post and added the details of the test protocol and the results I get before sending my K10D to Pentax.

I hope this could help you.
11-28-2007, 12:12 AM   #88
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QuoteOriginally posted by matsoberg Quote
Thatīs interesting. My sensor was dead straight with the camera before I sent it in, but the viewfinder was way off. Now everything is in line; bottom of camera, VF and sensor. So the service guys obviously adjusted the VF in my case.

My VF was 1.03 degrees off and the sensor straight, so that may have been the reason why they didnīt touch my sensor. Just a thought....
Well my K10D came back from service today, the second round, 58 days away all up and over $50 in freight costs. The service report in this instance simply states "Camera repaired by Pentax Japan", there is no other information. I haven't had a chance to test it yet, I will do this evening, til then keeping my fingers crossed for a good outcome.

Before my K10D was sent for repair of the tilted finder the base was very well aligned with the sensor, as close to perfect as anyone would want, a very good thing considering I shoot a lot of panoramas on a dedicated rig. I would be mighty disappointed if the sensor alignment was adjusted to compensate for a poorly aligned finder, seems like the tail wagging the dog to me.

I read comments relating to rei_vilos parallel post at photos qui penchent ā droite
some interesting comments follow. I wonder how the people saying it shouldn't be a problem would react had their bodies been so afflicted?

Cheers,
11-28-2007, 03:48 AM   #89
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QuoteOriginally posted by hinman Quote
All of my shots are tilted clockwise for an angle. I always have SR turned on but I doubt if turning off would make anything better.
I hadn't paid any attention to this thread since I don't have a K10D. And until very recently I have never paid particularly close attention to whether my images were a bit off the vertical or horizontal. But since I recently started shooting the dance group and passing prints around that I want to be of the best quality I can make them, I started paying attention to this.

On my K100D I find that every image needs between one to two and a half degrees rotation clockwise. At first I thought it was just my carelessness, but even when I have paid particular attention at the moment of shooting I still come home and find the rotation problem is there.

Consequently, I have gone from never using the Rotate tool when post-processing to it now being the first thing I do. I also have to remember to leave myself a little margin for trimming when framing my shots. If I compose so as to carefully fill the frame without need for cropping, I find that after rotation I have to crop to something other than what I had in mind.
11-28-2007, 05:49 AM   #90
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QuoteOriginally posted by matsoberg Quote
Thatīs interesting. My sensor was dead straight with the camera before I sent it in, but the viewfinder was way off. Now everything is in line; bottom of camera, VF and sensor. So the service guys obviously adjusted the VF in my case.
I just tested my camera, it's better but it looks like they adjusted the sensor position in my case as images are not nearly as well aligned with the base of the camera as they were before. I'm not impressed. At least before there was one thing I could trust, the image alignment relative to the base used to be 0.04 degree now it's closer to 0.46 degree.
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