K7 and Noise Redution

**eccs19** · 10-19-2010, 04:41 PM

Just wondering, if shooting RAW with the K7, does the in camera noise reduction make any difference, or is it all PP? If it does make a difference, what would be recommended to set things to?

brofkand · 10-19-2010, 04:49 PM

The camera doesn't do any NR in RAW, at least none that I can tell. It's up to you to do it all.

JPEGs with NR off actually look like there is some NR done compared to RAW files, so I'd assume the K-7 always does NR with JPEG files, regardless of NR setting.

If someone knows otherwise, please chime in.

Also, I would love to hear what people use for NR. I've used Aperture's built in NR, as well as Camera Raw, and have been unable to reduce noise and hold detail at the same time. It seems that both of these applications just blur the image rather than remove noise.

**jpzk** · 10-19-2010, 04:54 PM

Originally posted by brofkand

The camera doesn't do any NR in RAW, at least none that I can tell. It's up to you to do it all.

JPEGs with NR off actually look like there is some NR done compared to RAW files, so I'd assume the K-7 always does NR with JPEG files, regardless of NR setting.

If someone knows otherwise, please chime in.

Also, I would love to hear what people use for NR. I've used Aperture's built in NR, as well as Camera Raw, and have been unable to reduce noise and hold detail at the same time. It seems that both of these applications just blur the image rather than remove noise.

About the in-camera NR for RAW files: I am being told that none is done.

About NR software: the gurus of NR here on this forum seem to like Topaz Denoise.
They do, however, also use ACR to some extent.

I am sure one of the NR Gurus will soon find this post and reply with better explanations and recommendations.
Stay posted.

JP

GlennG · 10-19-2010, 05:58 PM

Brofkand, I use the NR feature in PaintShop Pro Photo X2 Ultimate. I'm NOT the NR Guru that is sought here, though! The feature seems to work acceptably well, though I do not pixel peep, so I can't tell you whether detail is preserved or not. I just see that the photos look better after the NR feature and I still see plenty of detail, at least on the computer screen. My $0.02 worth.

Thanks.

Glenn

hcc · 10-19-2010, 06:30 PM

On K-7 and noise reduction (NR), there are a number of importants threads/discussons including these:

[1] https://www.pentaxforums.com/forums/pentax-dslr-discussion/106600-k-7-high-iso-success.html

[2] https://www.pentaxforums.com/forums/pentax-dslr-discussion/117808-k7-iso-2500...ing-tests.html

In the thread [1], Kittycat46 explained clearly that there are 3 basic NR techniques:

"a) Shoot RAW, then process with Noise Reduction later

b) JPEG straight out of camera with NR "Off", then process with Noise Reduction software. It sounds counter-intuitive, but NR software like Noise Ninja and Noiseware work best with image files which have not had any previous NR processing done on it.

c) JPEG straight out of camera with "Strong" NR - as you found.
The K-7's detail retention is quite good up to ISO3200, even with Strong NR."

The 3rd technique (c) is the one proposed by Adam in [1].

Personnally, I prefer the 2nd option (b) since shoot mostly in JPEG. I have NR Off and I post-process (PP) the photographs with Noiseware. My choice is linked partly with my regular usage of continuous shooting, for which it is best to kill off in-camera PP including High ISO correction, and the good performances and reasonable price of Noiseware. (It is free basically.)

Koenig, in the thread [2], presented a nice comparison of differnet NR PP techniques. It is worth to read the thread and the various posts.

Overall, a few conclusions:

- Pentax Digital Camera Utility (PDCU) is not bad for some simple (everyday) NR with low ISO

- For high ISO NR, use some dedicated softwares like Noiseware or NoiseNinja. (The post of Koenig [2] is a worthwhile comparison also of NR softwares.)

- On the K-7, most Pentaxians recommend a maximum ISO setting of ISO 3200.

sniper29a · 10-19-2010, 06:57 PM

I believe NR setting in custom functions works in RAW as well. Still, I never use any in-camera processing and always shoot in RAW. No camera has enough processing power and quality to do job well.

When I was looking for a new camera after successfull learning on Canon EOS 400D. Choices were K-7, Canon 7D and Nikon D200 (unsure). Canon/NIkon are kings of JPEG processing and in-camera noise removal. Still, I don't like soft, blured NR RAW images of Canon/Nikon. Pentax is king of quality and price. What I have saved on Pentax, I have spent on PS and Topaz denoise which does better job than expensive Canon/Nikon. Pentax K-7 has got sharp, slightly noisy output which is in seconds turned into brilliant sharp adn detailed picture that Canon/Nikon should be jealous of.

I used to use Noise Ninja, so called gold standart in NR, until I have been advised by guys from this forum that Topaz Denoise is new generation of NR SW. I must admit it does better job than "obsolete" wavelet theory-based NR SWs such as Noise Ninja. I have pruchased Topaz plugin now. Still, I prefer to shoot in as low ISO as possible since you loose dynamic range of sensor and add lots of noise.

It also depends on field of use. ISO800+ maybe good for simple texture-less objects where any NR filter works well. In my case, landscape/macro/sport photography is ISO800 limit with one eye closed. ISO800 is not suitable for fine art. According to DxO Labs. ISO560 is maximum limit for ISO sport photography and I agree with them. Trade off between quality/noise.

10-19-2010, 04:41 PM	#1
eccs19 Site Supporter Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Lisle, Ontario Photos: Gallery Posts: 1,510	K7 and Noise Redution Just wondering, if shooting RAW with the K7, does the in camera noise reduction make any difference, or is it all PP? If it does make a difference, what would be recommended to set things to?

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10-19-2010, 04:49 PM	#2
brofkand Pentaxian Join Date: May 2009 Location: North Carolina Posts: 836	The camera doesn't do any NR in RAW, at least none that I can tell. It's up to you to do it all. JPEGs with NR off actually look like there is some NR done compared to RAW files, so I'd assume the K-7 always does NR with JPEG files, regardless of NR setting. If someone knows otherwise, please chime in. Also, I would love to hear what people use for NR. I've used Aperture's built in NR, as well as Camera Raw, and have been unable to reduce noise and hold detail at the same time. It seems that both of these applications just blur the image rather than remove noise.

10-19-2010, 04:54 PM	#3
jpzk Site Supporter Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Québec Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 8,251	Originally posted by brofkand The camera doesn't do any NR in RAW, at least none that I can tell. It's up to you to do it all. JPEGs with NR off actually look like there is some NR done compared to RAW files, so I'd assume the K-7 always does NR with JPEG files, regardless of NR setting. If someone knows otherwise, please chime in. Also, I would love to hear what people use for NR. I've used Aperture's built in NR, as well as Camera Raw, and have been unable to reduce noise and hold detail at the same time. It seems that both of these applications just blur the image rather than remove noise. About the in-camera NR for RAW files: I am being told that none is done. About NR software: the gurus of NR here on this forum seem to like Topaz Denoise. They do, however, also use ACR to some extent. I am sure one of the NR Gurus will soon find this post and reply with better explanations and recommendations. Stay posted. JP

10-19-2010, 05:58 PM	#4
GlennG Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: Houston, Texas Posts: 824	Brofkand, I use the NR feature in PaintShop Pro Photo X2 Ultimate. I'm NOT the NR Guru that is sought here, though! The feature seems to work acceptably well, though I do not pixel peep, so I can't tell you whether detail is preserved or not. I just see that the photos look better after the NR feature and I still see plenty of detail, at least on the computer screen. My $0.02 worth. Thanks. Glenn

10-19-2010, 06:30 PM	#5
hcc Pentaxian Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Brisbane, Australia Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 4,002	On K-7 and noise reduction (NR), there are a number of importants threads/discussons including these: [1] https://www.pentaxforums.com/forums/pentax-dslr-discussion/106600-k-7-high-iso-success.html [2] https://www.pentaxforums.com/forums/pentax-dslr-discussion/117808-k7-iso-2500...ing-tests.html In the thread [1], Kittycat46 explained clearly that there are 3 basic NR techniques: "a) Shoot RAW, then process with Noise Reduction later b) JPEG straight out of camera with NR "Off", then process with Noise Reduction software. It sounds counter-intuitive, but NR software like Noise Ninja and Noiseware work best with image files which have not had any previous NR processing done on it. c) JPEG straight out of camera with "Strong" NR - as you found. The K-7's detail retention is quite good up to ISO3200, even with Strong NR." The 3rd technique (c) is the one proposed by Adam in [1]. Personnally, I prefer the 2nd option (b) since shoot mostly in JPEG. I have NR Off and I post-process (PP) the photographs with Noiseware. My choice is linked partly with my regular usage of continuous shooting, for which it is best to kill off in-camera PP including High ISO correction, and the good performances and reasonable price of Noiseware. (It is free basically.) Koenig, in the thread [2], presented a nice comparison of differnet NR PP techniques. It is worth to read the thread and the various posts. Overall, a few conclusions: - Pentax Digital Camera Utility (PDCU) is not bad for some simple (everyday) NR with low ISO - For high ISO NR, use some dedicated softwares like Noiseware or NoiseNinja. (The post of Koenig [2] is a worthwhile comparison also of NR softwares.) - On the K-7, most Pentaxians recommend a maximum ISO setting of ISO 3200.

10-19-2010, 06:57 PM	#6
sniper29a Inactive Account Join Date: Sep 2010 Posts: 56	I believe NR setting in custom functions works in RAW as well. Still, I never use any in-camera processing and always shoot in RAW. No camera has enough processing power and quality to do job well. When I was looking for a new camera after successfull learning on Canon EOS 400D. Choices were K-7, Canon 7D and Nikon D200 (unsure). Canon/NIkon are kings of JPEG processing and in-camera noise removal. Still, I don't like soft, blured NR RAW images of Canon/Nikon. Pentax is king of quality and price. What I have saved on Pentax, I have spent on PS and Topaz denoise which does better job than expensive Canon/Nikon. Pentax K-7 has got sharp, slightly noisy output which is in seconds turned into brilliant sharp adn detailed picture that Canon/Nikon should be jealous of. I used to use Noise Ninja, so called gold standart in NR, until I have been advised by guys from this forum that Topaz Denoise is new generation of NR SW. I must admit it does better job than "obsolete" wavelet theory-based NR SWs such as Noise Ninja. I have pruchased Topaz plugin now. Still, I prefer to shoot in as low ISO as possible since you loose dynamic range of sensor and add lots of noise. It also depends on field of use. ISO800+ maybe good for simple texture-less objects where any NR filter works well. In my case, landscape/macro/sport photography is ISO800 limit with one eye closed. ISO800 is not suitable for fine art. According to DxO Labs. ISO560 is maximum limit for ISO sport photography and I agree with them. Trade off between quality/noise.