Two hypothetical future bodies I'd like to see..

RioRico · 02-11-2011, 07:22 AM

Originally posted by violini

Yes, I would like to see a digital ZX-5n and ZX-L and no LCD on the back.

Sorry, that won't happen. Digicams demand LCD's. The great strength of digital over film, besides that the cost-per-shot is zero, is the instant feedback available on the chimp.screen. IMHO the only ways to lose the screen are:

* Video feed to bluetooth VR goggles or neural implant
* Holographic projection - image here, histo there, etc
* Thin-film LCD coating to turn the whole camera into a display device, from 'skin' to screen

The hypothetical future body I want to see? I've described it a couple times already over the last year or so: a 6x9cm folder with interchangeable lenses mounted on a solenoid-driven lensboard for full tilt-shift-extension-focus control. Every lens a PC-macro lens! Resolution up the yazoo! All other cam.makers left in the dust! Pentax uber alles! But I won't hold my breath...

vicentesagredo · 02-12-2011, 11:09 AM

first one sound cool...
second one has to be really expensive because of the planned obsolescence

hillerby · 02-12-2011, 12:06 PM

Originally posted by zelovoc

i would like to have digital k1000 without any additional functions with viewfinder from me super

How about an LX .... only digital?

sambo · 02-12-2011, 02:09 PM

I would love a full frame digital MZ-5n. As for dropping the rear lcd, I think I could actually live with that if:

it had a very flexible user mode and you could tether with phone/tablet/pc over wireless/usb for setting the multitude of menu items and chimping. I have a bad habit of almost never reviewing shots until I have loaded them onto my computer, so I wouldn't miss chimping much.

They could add an optional swivel lcd option to screw into tripod mount (with threads to still mount on a tripod) or on the hotshoe.

Heck, they could even turn the focus assist beam into a mini-projector that you could beam onto a nearby white surface.

violini · 02-13-2011, 05:15 PM

The reason to eliminate LCD on the back is to keep the camera thin and light. I don't care for live view anyway. The only use of back LCD is for instant review of shot. Back in the film days, one does not have such luxury, and therefore bracket shots are the way to go.

eddie1960 · 02-13-2011, 05:17 PM

i'd be in on this, the mz5n got me back to pentax

RioRico · 02-13-2011, 07:30 PM

Originally posted by violini

The reason to eliminate LCD on the back is to keep the camera thin and light. I don't care for live view anyway. The only use of back LCD is for instant review of shot. Back in the film days, one does not have such luxury, and therefore bracket shots are the way to go.

Like I said, losing the display screen just ain't gonna happen. No digicam maker will risk money on a camera that people won't buy because THEY CAN"T REVIEW THEIR SHOTS! Bracketing isn't enough -- it doesn't let you know if you've really screwed up. And some focusing situations demand LiveView.

What WILL happen is that newer semiconductor technologies will make the screen thinner and lighter. Then that part of the argument goes away. And them who don't wanna chimp, don't gotta chimp. But hey, chimping is traditional! Early fotogs using actinic-light emulsions would shoot, then develop the plate under a safelight, and throw it in the fixer when it reached the desired density. To me, that's chimping for exposure. I'll bet Ansel Adams would have LOVED a big LED screen on the back of his 8x10 viewcam.

Yeah, think of an ideal minimal digicam: no LCD, no AF, no features -- and no sales.

acrollet · 02-13-2011, 07:51 PM

everyone carries around a smartphone these days, why not combine the ideas and have the lcd-less camera talk to your phone over wifi? all the chimping you want, and the lcd can be used in *any* position. and if you find you can't live without the lcd on the back, duct tape your phone right on there

violini · 02-14-2011, 08:16 AM

The back LCD is redundant to me. All the info displaced there are duplicated on top LCD and viewfinder. Advanced electronics in metering and AF and PP would render the old-timers bad habit of chimping superfluous.

RioRico · 02-14-2011, 01:04 PM

Originally posted by violini

The back LCD is redundant to me. All the info displaced there are duplicated on top LCD and viewfinder. Advanced electronics in metering and AF and PP would render the old-timers bad habit of chimping superfluous.

Are you saying that you *never* review shots on your Kx and K7? Honestly? You never check for composition or exposure? You never know if that last shot was any good, and you don't care? You never read the data from that last shot, use it as a guideline for your next shot?

This sounds like the basis for a poll: Do you chimp (review shots), yes or no?

And why say, "the old-timers bad habit of chimping" ?? Maybe the poll should be broken down into 'age' and "years of photo experience" areas.

And you say, "All the info displaced there are duplicated on top LCD and viewfinder." I haven't noticed that the top panel and VF on my K20D give me the same data as the rear panel: histogram, FL, mode and WB info, etc. For that matter, losing the rear panel would make the settings and functions menus rather hard to see. How many cameras would Pentax sell without this?

There are a couple simple ways to have a simple camera. 1) Shoot film. 2) Tape over the LCD screen. Easy as cake. Piece of pie.

I already suggested ways to lose the screen without losing functionality. Quoting myself from #17 above:

* Video feed to bluetooth VR goggles or neural implant
* Holographic projection - image here, histo there, etc
* Thin-film LCD coating to turn the whole camera into a display device, from 'skin' to screen

acrollet above suggested using a phone for the display, which is more off-the-shelf than my options, but it's the same idea as my first one (video feed). Which reminds me of another use of the screen: to display the images to others. It's not just the fotog who chimps -- they can show the image instantly to the subject or audience. Back in the day, a fotog might have to carry their film camera(s) AND a Polaroid, to show subjects what they look like. That was the only way to quickly review images then. Now we have that instant review, with the litter of Polaroid debris.

violini · 02-15-2011, 05:38 PM

RioRico, sorry, I was just having fun and getting over board. Of course, I wouldn't mind to have a very feature rich DSLR which would require the most up to date Intel CPU to run, but at the same time I also wish to have a simple retro style digital MZ-5N or 6. Look, Fujifilm already made one, 12MP APS-c sensor.

RioRico · 02-19-2011, 10:19 PM - **1 Like**

Oh, that X100 is a sweet little thing, there's no denying! It quite reminds me of the Canon Demi-EE17 half-frame I had, back in the day. Shots from that one got national publication. Hay, I'd *really* like to see a digital version of the Dial35! But can a fixed-lens cam survive in a world of zooms and interchangeable lenses? You'll note that the X100 *does* have an LCD screen, so it's not completely minimal. We'll watch where it goes, eh?

violini · 02-20-2011, 11:40 AM

It won't be long we'll be able to buy 36x24mm CCD at Radio Shack and grandmother board in the form of film cartridge to run the electronics; and yes, a super thin display screen you can double-face taped on the camera back.

**nater** · 09-08-2016, 10:16 AM

Looks like there is now a wider realization of my second idea that cameras need to be software platforms, Tony Northrup talks about it quite a bit in "The DEATH of the Consumer Camera":

You Tube

If people here are interested, maybe we can put together a public petition to Ricoh/Pentax to evolve the Pentax camera platform.

02-14-2011, 08:16 AM	#24
violini Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: Winnipeg MB Photos: Gallery Posts: 350	The back LCD is redundant to me. All the info displaced there are duplicated on top LCD and viewfinder. Advanced electronics in metering and AF and PP would render the old-timers bad habit of chimping superfluous. Last edited by violini; 02-14-2011 at 12:02 PM.

02-14-2011, 01:04 PM	#25
RioRico Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Limbo, California Posts: 11,263	Originally posted by violini The back LCD is redundant to me. All the info displaced there are duplicated on top LCD and viewfinder. Advanced electronics in metering and AF and PP would render the old-timers bad habit of chimping superfluous. Are you saying that you never review shots on your Kx and K7? Honestly? You never check for composition or exposure? You never know if that last shot was any good, and you don't care? You never read the data from that last shot, use it as a guideline for your next shot? This sounds like the basis for a poll: Do you chimp (review shots), yes or no? And why say, "the old-timers bad habit of chimping" ?? Maybe the poll should be broken down into 'age' and "years of photo experience" areas. And you say, "All the info displaced there are duplicated on top LCD and viewfinder." I haven't noticed that the top panel and VF on my K20D give me the same data as the rear panel: histogram, FL, mode and WB info, etc. For that matter, losing the rear panel would make the settings and functions menus rather hard to see. How many cameras would Pentax sell without this? There are a couple simple ways to have a simple camera. 1) Shoot film. 2) Tape over the LCD screen. Easy as cake. Piece of pie. I already suggested ways to lose the screen without losing functionality. Quoting myself from #17 above: * Video feed to bluetooth VR goggles or neural implant * Holographic projection - image here, histo there, etc * Thin-film LCD coating to turn the whole camera into a display device, from 'skin' to screen acrollet above suggested using a phone for the display, which is more off-the-shelf than my options, but it's the same idea as my first one (video feed). Which reminds me of another use of the screen: to display the images to others. It's not just the fotog who chimps -- they can show the image instantly to the subject or audience. Back in the day, a fotog might have to carry their film camera(s) AND a Polaroid, to show subjects what they look like. That was the only way to quickly review images then. Now we have that instant review, with the litter of Polaroid debris. Last edited by RioRico; 02-14-2011 at 01:12 PM.

02-15-2011, 05:38 PM	#26
violini Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: Winnipeg MB Photos: Gallery Posts: 350	RioRico, sorry, I was just having fun and getting over board. Of course, I wouldn't mind to have a very feature rich DSLR which would require the most up to date Intel CPU to run, but at the same time I also wish to have a simple retro style digital MZ-5N or 6. Look, Fujifilm already made one, 12MP APS-c sensor. Last edited by violini; 08-09-2011 at 12:38 PM.

02-20-2011, 11:40 AM	#28
violini Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: Winnipeg MB Photos: Gallery Posts: 350	It won't be long we'll be able to buy 36x24mm CCD at Radio Shack and grandmother board in the form of film cartridge to run the electronics; and yes, a super thin display screen you can double-face taped on the camera back. Last edited by violini; 11-24-2012 at 07:52 PM.

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02-11-2011, 07:22 AM	#16
RioRico Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Limbo, California Posts: 11,263	Originally posted by violini Yes, I would like to see a digital ZX-5n and ZX-L and no LCD on the back. Sorry, that won't happen. Digicams demand LCD's. The great strength of digital over film, besides that the cost-per-shot is zero, is the instant feedback available on the chimp.screen. IMHO the only ways to lose the screen are: * Video feed to bluetooth VR goggles or neural implant * Holographic projection - image here, histo there, etc * Thin-film LCD coating to turn the whole camera into a display device, from 'skin' to screen The hypothetical future body I want to see? I've described it a couple times already over the last year or so: a 6x9cm folder with interchangeable lenses mounted on a solenoid-driven lensboard for full tilt-shift-extension-focus control. Every lens a PC-macro lens! Resolution up the yazoo! All other cam.makers left in the dust! Pentax uber alles! But I won't hold my breath...

02-12-2011, 11:09 AM	#17
vicentesagredo Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Concepcion Posts: 100	first one sound cool... second one has to be really expensive because of the planned obsolescence

02-12-2011, 12:06 PM	#18
hillerby Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Sherman Texas Photos: Gallery Posts: 224	Originally posted by zelovoc i would like to have digital k1000 without any additional functions with viewfinder from me super How about an LX .... only digital?

02-12-2011, 02:09 PM	#19
sambo Junior Member Join Date: Feb 2011 Location: Vancouver Posts: 41	I would love a full frame digital MZ-5n. As for dropping the rear lcd, I think I could actually live with that if: it had a very flexible user mode and you could tether with phone/tablet/pc over wireless/usb for setting the multitude of menu items and chimping. I have a bad habit of almost never reviewing shots until I have loaded them onto my computer, so I wouldn't miss chimping much. They could add an optional swivel lcd option to screw into tripod mount (with threads to still mount on a tripod) or on the hotshoe. Heck, they could even turn the focus assist beam into a mini-projector that you could beam onto a nearby white surface.

02-13-2011, 05:15 PM	#20
violini Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: Winnipeg MB Photos: Gallery Posts: 350	The reason to eliminate LCD on the back is to keep the camera thin and light. I don't care for live view anyway. The only use of back LCD is for instant review of shot. Back in the film days, one does not have such luxury, and therefore bracket shots are the way to go.

02-13-2011, 05:17 PM	#21
eddie1960 Pentaxian Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: Toronto Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 13,663	i'd be in on this, the mz5n got me back to pentax

02-13-2011, 07:30 PM	#22
RioRico Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Limbo, California Posts: 11,263	Originally posted by violini The reason to eliminate LCD on the back is to keep the camera thin and light. I don't care for live view anyway. The only use of back LCD is for instant review of shot. Back in the film days, one does not have such luxury, and therefore bracket shots are the way to go. Like I said, losing the display screen just ain't gonna happen. No digicam maker will risk money on a camera that people won't buy because THEY CAN"T REVIEW THEIR SHOTS! Bracketing isn't enough -- it doesn't let you know if you've really screwed up. And some focusing situations demand LiveView. What WILL happen is that newer semiconductor technologies will make the screen thinner and lighter. Then that part of the argument goes away. And them who don't wanna chimp, don't gotta chimp. But hey, chimping is traditional! Early fotogs using actinic-light emulsions would shoot, then develop the plate under a safelight, and throw it in the fixer when it reached the desired density. To me, that's chimping for exposure. I'll bet Ansel Adams would have LOVED a big LED screen on the back of his 8x10 viewcam. Yeah, think of an ideal minimal digicam: no LCD, no AF, no features -- and no sales.

02-13-2011, 07:51 PM	#23
acrollet Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: USA Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 351	everyone carries around a smartphone these days, why not combine the ideas and have the lcd-less camera talk to your phone over wifi? all the chimping you want, and the lcd can be used in any position. and if you find you can't live without the lcd on the back, duct tape your phone right on there

02-19-2011, 10:19 PM - 1 Like	#27
RioRico Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Limbo, California Posts: 11,263	Oh, that X100 is a sweet little thing, there's no denying! It quite reminds me of the Canon Demi-EE17 half-frame I had, back in the day. Shots from that one got national publication. Hay, I'd really like to see a digital version of the Dial35! But can a fixed-lens cam survive in a world of zooms and interchangeable lenses? You'll note that the X100 does have an LCD screen, so it's not completely minimal. We'll watch where it goes, eh?

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