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05-29-2011, 01:39 AM   #226
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QuoteOriginally posted by planedriver Quote
even the K-5's images look (too) digital compared to those taken with the k200...


Granted the K200D was infamous for its out of camera JPG's, but lets not get carried away here... It's no K-5.
And by that I mean; On resolution, color, DR and pretty much every other aspect of the unit itself.

And so comments such as the K-5 being more digital than the K200D just don't seem very reasonable.
In fact... I've never worked with a camera that allows as much film like qualities in processing than the K-5 to date.
And that would include a K200D, Kx, K20's and two full frames along the way.







To which I'd add, there's nothing wrong with being enthusiastic, but... please.. lets keep it in context.


Last edited by JohnBee; 05-29-2011 at 03:59 PM.
05-29-2011, 02:30 AM   #227
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QuoteOriginally posted by JohnBee Quote
And so comments such as the K-5 being more digital than the K200D just aren't reasonable at all.
Why not John? Some sensors, some WB and even some certain colors can give plastic looking results. For instance with any camera any lens a rose in my garden gives always a plastic looking picture even more plastic than a fake plastic rose look, whenever I took it's picture (light cherry color). We don't know what scenes he is talking about, his experience with both cameras, and here we are talking about CCD vs CMOS systems. I can take all plastic looking pictures with a K200D with an intended user error also.

BTW when replying I saw 6 pics you've posted and but can see only two, second one (1348) has a plastic unnatural look even though it's BW picture.

I have 3 questions for you John:
1-Did you ever own a K200D?
2-Why didn't you accept my K5 vs K200D challenge?
3-You said you were going to re-check your K5 about stain issue, did you performed the test?

PS. About myself&K5, if someone care, K5 is out of question for me because n0-one knows if Sony started to produce clean sensors for K-5 and D7000, I've seen reports of stainy K5 sensors with serial numbers >40xxxx and also seen stain reports of D7000 at dpreview, the glue evaporation is blamed attaching sensor and the glass on the top of the sensor from the stains. You know the stained/nonstained sensor poll here already AF issues are just another story.
05-29-2011, 02:43 AM   #228
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QuoteOriginally posted by cbaytan Quote
About myself&K5, if someone care, K5 is out of question for me because n0-one knows if Sony started to produce clean sensors for K-5 and D7000, I've seen reports of
I have to say, even though I'm a total advocate of the K200D and I still haven't been able to bring myself to sell mine, even a stained K5 is better than a K200D. You can only see stains if you've got clear sky (or another totally flat colour) exactly where the stain is at a very small aperture.. In my photography, this almost never happens - and when it does, it's on a flat colour, it takes 10 seconds to clone out if that's the image you want to print. Don't let stains stop you.
05-29-2011, 03:07 AM   #229
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ooooohhhh

the k200d is special. different. the K-5 is great..impressive..in many many (every) ways it is much much more usable camera. In fact I love it. with the grip it is unbeatably comfortable.. no way I'm going to sacrifie this comfort and acceptable size...even when a 7D or a d300 offers more enhanced AF..those cameras are BIG..

so my K-5 is my number#1 camera

but at low iso my k200d keeps impressing me..again and again...with sharp lenses like the da12-24 or the fa50..I'm always impressed..those pictures are more 3D than the others..this is completely subjective of course.

Andras

05-29-2011, 06:09 AM   #230
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Oh WOW. Whistles, bells, alarm signs & sirens, flashing lights, this is the kind of picture IQ I looove to see in all of my pictures. I hope I will long enough to live to see affordable cameras will be able take such photos, every single time I shot, even at 6400 ASA.

Oh wait, without any PP'ing I mean, of course.

Congrats.
QuoteOriginally posted by JohnBee Quote

05-29-2011, 08:21 AM   #231
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QuoteOriginally posted by cbaytan Quote
Why not John? Some sensors, some WB and even some certain colors can give plastic looking results. For instance with any camera any lens a rose in my garden gives always a plastic looking picture even more plastic than a fake plastic rose look, whenever I took it's picture (light cherry color). We don't know what scenes he is talking about, his experience with both cameras, and here we are talking about CCD vs CMOS systems. I can take all plastic looking pictures with a K200D with an intended user error also.
That's been exactly my point.

QuoteQuote:
BTW when replying I saw 6 pics you've posted and but can see only two, second one (1348) has a plastic unnatural look even though it's BW picture.
Not sure what you're referring too, I only posted 5 pics in my last comment. However, I doubt the plastic look(as you call it) is from the camera. The surrealism in the shot is a process and intentional and is something that we did with film(from slides).

QuoteQuote:
I have 3 questions for you John:
1-Did you ever own a K200D?
2-Why didn't you accept my K5 vs K200D challenge?
3-You said you were going to re-check your K5 about stain issue, did you performed the test?
1. Yes, it was our third Pentax out of 6 that we've owned.
2. Don't know which one you're talking about.
3. And yes, its clean(thankfully)

QuoteQuote:
PS. About myself&K5, if someone care, K5 is out of question for me because n0-one knows if Sony started to produce clean sensors for K-5 and D7000, I've seen reports of stainy K5 sensors with serial numbers >40xxxx and also seen stain reports of D7000 at dpreview, the glue evaporation is blamed attaching sensor and the glass on the top of the sensor from the stains. You know the stained/nonstained sensor poll here already AF issues are just another story.
I've never seen a stain from the Nikon side that looked like those on the K-5. However, I can't say that I blame you. My wife and I each bought K-5's this year for our work kit and we purchased them with extended warranty's from Henry's Camera. Which covers us against stains defect for 3 full years. However, had we not had such an option, I probably wouldn't have ever upgraded.

Anyways, we gave our K200D away to my older sister who has never owned a DSLR during a visit here last summer. It served us well and she's been enjoying it ever since. And so there's nothing inherently wrong with the K200D, it's a fine entry level camera. But it's far from magical

I just think alot of this thread is from point and shoot style opinions.
But if someone took both systems and carried out head to head photo's they'd soon see the realism behind the claims(as demonstrated earlier in this thread).


QuoteOriginally posted by cbaytan Quote
Oh WOW. Whistles, bells, alarm signs & sirens, flashing lights, this is the kind of picture IQ I looove to see in all of my pictures. I hope I will long enough to live to see affordable cameras will be able take such photos, every single time I shot, even at 6400 ASA.

Oh wait, without any PP'ing I mean, of course.

Congrats.
Thanks, and the good news here is that there was no special PP applied to this whatsoever other than RAW development(a-typical). And so it was nothing more than a color card, natural light, camera and lens and shot at 1/100, ISO320.

Last edited by JohnBee; 05-29-2011 at 08:31 AM.
05-29-2011, 08:28 AM   #232
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QuoteOriginally posted by JohnBee Quote
2. Don't know which one you're talking about.
https://www.pentaxforums.com/forums/1495463-post203.html

QuoteOriginally posted by JohnBee Quote
Thanks, and the good news here is that there was no special PP applied to this whatsoever other than RAW development(a-typical). And so it was nothing more than a color card, natural light, camera and lens and shot at 1/100, ISO320.
And the lens and aperture is?

Last edited by cbaytan; 05-29-2011 at 08:38 AM.
05-29-2011, 08:43 AM   #233
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QuoteOriginally posted by planedriver Quote
but at low iso my k200d keeps impressing me..again and again...with sharp lenses like the da12-24 or the fa50..I'm always impressed..those pictures are more 3D than the others..this is completely subjective of course.Andras
Hello again Andras,
I think much of oppinions surrounding the K200D are based on out of camera IQ. And don't get me wrong... I'm not knocking that. In fact, I think that if Pentax could make a point that matched the K200D output, they'd probably become legendary.

However, in an earlier discussion(in this thread), someone posted that the only camera he was aware of that was better than the K200D in terms of 3D or spatial resolution qualities was the Nikon D3x.

And so to help shed light on the issue, I took the liberty of posting the following 3 files:

Candidate A2
Candidate B2
Candidate C2

To which I would ask... which camera has more or less 3D effect again?
To which I would add... what exactly are we looking at here and why?

Ps. I haven't had much time to work with the K-5 since I've gotten mine, but it seems as though the more I do, the more it continues to amaze me. Granted taking advantage of the added color space and DR does take some getting used too. But the rewards are definitely worth the efforts. And the prints to come-out of the K-5 are unlike anything I've ever seen from any crop sensor to date.


Last edited by JohnBee; 05-29-2011 at 09:03 AM.
05-29-2011, 08:48 AM   #234
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QuoteOriginally posted by cbaytan Quote
Why not John? Some sensors, some WB and even some certain colors can give plastic looking results.
I'd claim that is not a result of the sensor. WB can play into it, but mostly, it's simply a result of the exposure and the demosaicing algorithm.

QuoteQuote:
For instance with any camera any lens a rose in my garden gives always a plastic looking picture
You are almost certain overexposing the red channel. This is a common issue, indeed, with any camera. If the scene is pure red (or pure green, or pure blue), then an exposure that gets the *overall* light level as bright as you want will be
overexposed in the specific channel that matches the local color, because instead of the reflected light being well balanced between R, G, and B channels, it it all in one channel. Any sensor that failed to reflect this reality would be defective.

Anyhow, I'm quite convinced I'd be happy with the K-5. if I had an extra $1500 to spend, I'd get one in a heartbeat. But meanwhile, my K200D keeps making me happy. And again, I say that as someone who shoots high ISO more than my share of the time. No doubt, the K-5 is a stop or so better (as measured by dxomark and verified by my own comparisons using the sample RAW files from Imaging Resource) in this department, but I guess I just can't be convinced to be dissatisfied with the performance of the K200D - again, even at high ISO. I've viewed images on screen, I've printed them, I've had them projected quite large - I just don't see IQ to be a problem at any ISO.

Really, just about all DSLR's are more than good enough in terms of IQ for most purposes; I'm not going to claim the K200D is extra special. The fact that I believe IQ is largely a non-issue means that usability, ergonomics, feature set, and price point are really the main differentiators, and that's what really made the K200D unique.

A couple of random images, not trying to prove any particular point except that there's no reason to be dissatisfied with the IQ of the K200D.

This one push processed to the equivalent of ISO 4500:



This one at ISO 200:

05-29-2011, 08:50 AM   #235
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QuoteOriginally posted by cbaytan Quote
Jupiter-9 f/2
But I've achieved similar results with a kit lens.

Also, I remember the challenge now.
And my response to that was the Imaging Resource RAW files which I posted here:

Candidate A2 - K200D ISO100
Candidate B2 - K-5 ISO200
Candidate C2 - D3x ISO200.

And the reason for that is where there would be far to many variables between samples to ever allow anyone to draw any sound conclusions from them. Not to mention how easy it is to achieve that 3D look with images nowadays.

QuoteOriginally posted by Marc Sabatella Quote
I'd claim that is not a result of the sensor. WB can play into it, but mostly, it's simply a result of the exposure and the demosaicing algorithm.
Agreed! - I think the CMOS sensor underwent very good development in terms of processing and output.
And I don't mean to taunt you with claims of a K-5, but I recently discovered a demosaic engine(a new one) that outperforms the legendary Raw Photo Processor. Which did wonders with the K-5 btw. However this new one is far better and available on PC

But I don't want to spoil everything, because I'm writing a post/review on it atm.
Which I plan to post sometime later today.
Though I will say, I think most people will find the results to be 'AmaZing'

QuoteQuote:
This one at ISO 200:
Loved it before and love it again!

Last edited by JohnBee; 05-29-2011 at 09:13 AM.
05-29-2011, 09:37 AM   #236
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When I was taking macros with Tamron 70-300 LD Di in the garden today a ladybird appeared and requested for a immediate shot, I switched to non-macro mode which I don't like the results generally, here is the todays pic. Wondering how'd be with DA16-45mm or FA 35-80mm

05-29-2011, 10:03 AM   #237
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These are the kind of pictures where my k200d seems to give me more 3D effect than any other camera I tried. No tests, no science nothing..just personal taste.










and don't get me wrong...the K-5 opened up new possibilities for me..so both cameras have solid place in my bag





Andras
05-29-2011, 10:07 AM   #238
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QuoteOriginally posted by planedriver Quote
These are the kind of pictures where my k200d seems to give me more 3D effect than any other camera I tried. No tests, no science nothing..just personal taste.
Well I for one really like the last boat shot!

Last edited by JohnBee; 05-29-2011 at 10:41 PM.
05-29-2011, 04:24 PM   #239
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Nice pics planedriver, but im sorry i dont see any 3d pop to them except that last boat one has abit.
3d pop is most influenced by the lens and scene rather than the sensor.
05-31-2011, 12:48 PM   #240
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QuoteOriginally posted by JohnBee Quote
Well I for one really like the last boat shot!
thanks JohnBee

QuoteOriginally posted by TOUGEFC Quote
Nice pics planedriver, but im sorry i dont see any 3d pop to them except that last boat one has abit.
3d pop is most influenced by the lens and scene rather than the sensor.
well there's no point in a never ending argument..personal taste is always there..and you will always definitely find people who praise the CCD sensor over the CMOS. (me in certain situations and not genarally). this is an old story.

Andras
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