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02-22-2011, 08:14 AM   #16
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QuoteOriginally posted by mahukey Quote
the company I was trying to have make the calendars gave me a error message that the pictures would be blurry because of the pixels. I went kind of ballistic, the pictures are fine on my computer screen.
Sounds like you reduced the images for your computer screen (probably 1024x768) and then told them to print it as an 8x10".

Printers have more resolution than most displays. Your issue wasn't low light but that you sent them an image that was the wrong pixel size. This is pretty basic stuff and has nothing to do w/ low light...

02-22-2011, 08:31 AM   #17
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a word of advice

QuoteOriginally posted by mahukey Quote
I wish you all wouldn't take offense. I'm frustrated because of two problems 1. When I have tried to use the k10d in a low lighting situation, setting it at 1600 ISO, wide open, and pushing it three stops I still didn't get good pictures one of the problems was I couldn't use a flash during the performance. And that was the only time I could take the pictures. I tried using the camera in several other situation and felt like the results just were not the same as my film camera.
I'm using my Sigma 70-300mm lens so not it is not a kit lens, my Pentax 55 mm is a kit lens from the K70(back in the day) it is a pretty good lens despite coming from a kit.
2. I was using Shutterfly to create a calendar, I hadn't cropped the pictures and they were a JPEG. I'm thinking about trying again but taking new pictures in RAW and seeing what happens.
Note, just a simple word of advice here which could make all the world of difference in the types of responses you get.

Your first post, and the title of this thread is very argumentitive. To title any post "I'm thinking of changing systems" will generally raise the types of responses you have here, especially when you do so, without posting photos of your problems because we have from time to time, people that come on the forum and deliberately trash the product. This is not saying you intended to do so, but the title of the thread puts people on the defensive.

Now to the issue at hand. I will agree that the K10D is not the best product at low light performance, and I don't think any one will argue that point either. In fact, it may actually be the worst camera pentax has ever made for high ISO function. This, of course is my opinion, but in owing an *istD, the K10D and a K7D, I think I can at least carry some credibility with this argument.

BUT, the issue is not just pentax and the K10D, but also the 10MP nikon and sony cameras using the same sensor.

Additionally, the issue is compounded by your lenses. You have the relitively slow kit lens and a slow tele zoom.

While these lenses may work in outdoor and well lit situations, they simply don;t work in a school gym. As you indicate, you are shooting at 1600ISO and oushing 2-3 stops, implying something like 6400-12800 ISO. Even with the K5, K-x and K-r, which are the pentax high ISO champs, these cameras would be pushed at those settings. Your limitation is not the camera, and the issues you have would not change even if you dumped pentax. Your issues are your lenses, it is as simple as that. Your lenses are F5.6 or slower at the focal lengths you are using them at.

In a high school gym, when I shot my son's Tae Kwon Do tournaments, I used a 50mmF1.4, and sometimes a 105mm F2.8. Even an F2.8 lens was restrictive at 1600 ISO. The best shots were with the F1.4 lens, because you could actually freeze the action. You are giving up a minimum of 2-4 stops (assuming you shoot wide open)

You are in a really tough environment. Unfortunately, even with the best sensors of today, you need to spend a lot of money on lenses to shoot in that enviromnent, it is just that simple.
02-22-2011, 09:05 AM   #18
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Of all the digital SLRs Pentax has released, the K10 does about the worst with regard to high iso situations. Even the older K100 and *ist cameras did better. This is particularly true if you shoot jpeg. Best option is always to shoot RAW and use noise reduction software after the fact.

As Lowell says, your lenses are not such that they are going to enhance your image quality, particularly in low light settings. The kit lens is decent when stopped down to f8, but who wants to shoot at f8 when they are in a low light situation?

Whatever you choose, as Lowell says, you will need to get both a newer camera and faster lenses in order to get the performance that you want. The K5, kx, or kr will all do about two stops better than the K10, letting you shoot to about iso 6400.

Finally, don't worry about printing 8 by 11 with the K10. Photos will be fine at that size and truthfully can be printed larger than that without problem as long as you haven't cropped a whole lot.
02-22-2011, 10:43 AM   #19
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QuoteOriginally posted by mahukey Quote
I wish you all wouldn't take offense. I'm frustrated because of two problems 1. When I have tried to use the k10d in a low lighting situation, setting it at 1600 ISO, wide open, and pushing it three stops I still didn't get good pictures one of the problems was I couldn't use a flash during the performance. And that was the only time I could take the pictures. I tried using the camera in several other situation and felt like the results just were not the same as my film camera.
You really pushed ISO 1600 3 stops (ISO 12800) and expected to get 'good' results? From a JPG? I doubt you could do that with a scanned 35mm negative either (which has twice the area of the APS-C sensor).

QuoteQuote:
I'm using my Sigma 70-300mm lens so not it is not a kit lens, my Pentax 55 mm is a kit lens from the K70(back in the day) it is a pretty good lens despite coming from a kit.
No offense but the sigma isn't the greatest lens in the bunch in terms of resolution. It's probably fine for a lot of things but much better can be had, For Pentax. The 18-55 on the K10d was always a bit of a doorstop IMO, I rarely got a Sharp photo from it. Again, for what it was, it was ok but let's be realistic about it.

QuoteQuote:
2. I was using Shutterfly to create a calendar, I hadn't cropped the pictures and they were a JPEG. I'm thinking about trying again but taking new pictures in RAW and seeing what happens.
What they were most likely telling you, in terms of Pixels, is that there weren't enough of them to do a decent job on your prints for whatever size you chose. Unless you upload full resolution photos, shooting RAW isn't going to change that. The only thing it will change is your post processing starting point. From there, the result is all up to you. You Can push RAW further than you can a JPG but even with RAW a ISO 1600 pushed 3 stops, from a K10d, is still going to look like hell.

I don't know what you think changing systems is going to change in that respect but if that's your decision, good luck.



02-22-2011, 10:56 AM   #20
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Changing systems won't help you in anything except maybe focus speed. Results from a directly comparable Nikon (D200) with a directly comparable lens would be the same.
02-22-2011, 11:01 AM - 1 Like   #21
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Post a shot with exif.

A) Pushing 3 stops.
B) Sigma 70-300 wide open.

Really.
02-22-2011, 11:18 AM   #22
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QuoteOriginally posted by Lowell Goudge Quote
Note, just a simple word of advice here which could make all the world of difference in the types of responses you get.

Your first post, and the title of this thread is very argumentitive. To title any post "I'm thinking of changing systems" will generally raise the types of responses you have here, especially when you do so, without posting photos of your problems because we have from time to time, people that come on the forum and deliberately trash the product. This is not saying you intended to do so, but the title of the thread puts people on the defensive.

Now to the issue at hand. I will agree that the K10D is not the best product at low light performance, and I don't think any one will argue that point either. In fact, it may actually be the worst camera pentax has ever made for high ISO function. This, of course is my opinion, but in owing an *istD, the K10D and a K7D, I think I can at least carry some credibility with this argument.

BUT, the issue is not just pentax and the K10D, but also the 10MP nikon and sony cameras using the same sensor.

Additionally, the issue is compounded by your lenses. You have the relitively slow kit lens and a slow tele zoom.

While these lenses may work in outdoor and well lit situations, they simply don;t work in a school gym. As you indicate, you are shooting at 1600ISO and oushing 2-3 stops, implying something like 6400-12800 ISO. Even with the K5, K-x and K-r, which are the pentax high ISO champs, these cameras would be pushed at those settings. Your limitation is not the camera, and the issues you have would not change even if you dumped pentax. Your issues are your lenses, it is as simple as that. Your lenses are F5.6 or slower at the focal lengths you are using them at.

In a high school gym, when I shot my son's Tae Kwon Do tournaments, I used a 50mmF1.4, and sometimes a 105mm F2.8. Even an F2.8 lens was restrictive at 1600 ISO. The best shots were with the F1.4 lens, because you could actually freeze the action. You are giving up a minimum of 2-4 stops (assuming you shoot wide open)

You are in a really tough environment. Unfortunately, even with the best sensors of today, you need to spend a lot of money on lenses to shoot in that enviromnent, it is just that simple.
I agree .
02-22-2011, 12:08 PM   #23
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I think the others have sufficiently discussed the low light issues.

A note on your shutterfly issue: they recommend (taken from their help page)

Code:
Original image dimensions  Recommended print sizes

Less than 640 x 480 Wallet

640 x 480 4 x 6 with note
1024 x 768 4 x 4 with note
4 x 6
1152 x 864 5 x 7
1600 x 1200 8 x 8 with note
8 x 10
2000 x 1600 11 x 14
12 x 12 with note
16 x 20
20 x 30
So I'm quite convinced that somewhere in your process you must have done a resize.

// Edit: let's rephrase that last sentence

If your K10D is configured for the highest resolution (so you did not set that lower to get more images on a SD card), your resolution should be 3 times as big as 2000x1600 (2x1.6 equals 3.2 MP, your K10D does 10MP) and you should be OK if you did not, somewhere in your process, resize the images in some way.


Last edited by sterretje; 02-22-2011 at 12:27 PM.
02-22-2011, 12:45 PM   #24
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Yeah, just adding to the 'don't feel bad' factor, here: it does seem that you had an uploading issue that meant the files were probably a lot fewer pixels, never mind MP, than your camera is capable of producing, but remember this: low-light sports are challenging enough with the right sort of glass, never mind slow kit zooms and a camera body four generations old, which is kind of an eternity in recent history.

It's not the brand, it's that you're trying to push an older camera past its specs. (By underexposing three stops and trying to fix that in post, apparently) Even going to a K20d would probably help you out a lot, put any old prime lens on there, and shoot at 3200.

Even with a fast lens, it's likely you could find use of every stop of usable high-ISO *and* the stabilized camera body at least from time to time. (fast primes of appropriate length are expensive if available at all with other brands that have in-lens systems only.) Even then, it can take some skill. Gymnasiums have pretty crappy light, generally: (Quantity's one issue, making it look *good*... ) ...you shoulda tried it with color film at 800 at *best* and cameras from the early Seventies.

A nice thing, by the way, is that all this development that's been going on since the K10d was engineered is meaning that a lot of the tech is at some better plateaus of capability. The tech's probably about at the point of just maturing rather than jumping by leaps and bounds every model year.

Last edited by Ratmagiclady; 02-22-2011 at 01:11 PM.
02-22-2011, 02:46 PM   #25
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QuoteOriginally posted by SpecialK Quote
Post a shot with exif.

A) Pushing 3 stops.
B) Sigma 70-300 wide open.

Really.
This sums it up. Changing systems is not going to help.

Here's what will help.

1) Buying even a cheap K-x will help a lot
2) Getting a decent fast lens will help a lot (something f2.8 or preferably faster)
3) Shooting RAW will help a bit
4) Using noise reduction software will help

Do all those thing and you will get decent images. What system you shoot has nothing to do with it; you need a current generation body (actually K-x or newer), fast glass, RAW images and decent post processing skills.
02-23-2011, 12:20 PM   #26
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The new Sony sensor in the K5 and D7000 is a quantum leap up from the K10D even from ISO 100. The sensors dynamic range is quite something to behold

The D7000 as a dslr is a quantum leap up in every dept over the K10D, no argument as I'm sure the K5 is.

With this sensor you can shoot jpeg effortlessly at iso 3200/6400 with zero noise reduction required even if you are displaying on a 24" monitor.

With this sensor you do not need hyper fast glass - period, unless you need the extra shallow dof.

I went the Nikon D7000 route as I'm not a die hard to any system
02-23-2011, 02:03 PM   #27
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Couple of questions...

QuoteOriginally posted by dylansalt Quote
The new Sony sensor in the K5 and D7000 is a quantum leap up from the K10D even from ISO 100. The sensors dynamic range is quite something to behold

The D7000 as a dslr is a quantum leap up in every dept over the K10D, no argument as I'm sure the K5 is.

With this sensor you can shoot jpeg effortlessly at iso 3200/6400 with zero noise reduction required even if you are displaying on a 24" monitor.

With this sensor you do not need hyper fast glass - period, unless you need the extra shallow dof.

I went the Nikon D7000 route as I'm not a die hard to any system
What made you want to change to the Nikon? How do you like the camera compared to other Pentax cameras?
02-23-2011, 08:32 PM   #28
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QuoteOriginally posted by Ash Quote
The K10D hasn't suddenly become a bad/useless camera with all these newer cameras being developed. It's more to do with increasing expectations, but anyone who says 10Mp isn't enough either is a Stock Photo junkie or doesn't appreciate what can be produced from a 10Mp image.
Exactly. My D700 is 12mp. I don't think anyone I send a photo to will complain about image resolution.
02-24-2011, 12:29 PM   #29
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QuoteOriginally posted by mahukey Quote
What made you want to change to the Nikon? How do you like the camera compared to other Pentax cameras?
Mahukey,

There is a lot of electronics for autofocus, measurement systems etc in modern camera's.
Still a few things are the same as with old film camera's:
- The quality of the lens
- The quality of your photo medium (was film now sensor)

From there it is all signal processing.

Since there are just a limited number of sensor manufactures for this kind of camera's in the world. Often camera's of different brands share the same sensor.
In most (if not all) Nikon camera's you'll find Sony sensors.
In many (not all) Pentax camera's you'll find the same Sony sensor.

So, if the quality of the glass and the sensors are the same, the image quality of 2 camera's of 2 different brands will not be miles off. Right?
Now, the Nikon D200, D80 and the Pentax K10D share the same Sony sensor.
Hence, buying a competitive product (then) would not have changed a lot.

Today, the Sony A55, the Nikon D7000 and the Pentax K-5 share the same sensor.
The AF performance, noise control and other camera functions differ, however do not expect a world of difference between the 3 brands.

So, changing system (while comparing apples with apples) would means changing to a Nikon D80 or D200 (same generation camera as the K10D). Would not help.
So, buying a *new* model camera, independent of changing system or not, would certainly help.
Buying a fast new lens would help a lot as well.

I think you are not satisfied with your K10D results and you blame it on the brand.
Please try to understand the speed that the camera technology is developing with.
Changing brands is not the right way of thinking because as said before, it is not the change that will help. Updating to new technology will.

Back on the resolution topic.
In a previous reply I tried to explain the resolution of the K10D versus the K-5 (or Nikon D7000 using the same sensor).
I fully agree with all other people, that if shutterfly finds less resolution, most probably you must have made a mistake in the process converting to JPEG.
Please have a close look at the properties of the image file you've used.

- Bert
02-24-2011, 01:51 PM   #30
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QuoteOriginally posted by mahukey Quote
What made you want to change to the Nikon? How do you like the camera compared to other Pentax cameras?
Unfortunately the Pentax brand has such limited availability and support in my country it became a problem.

There were two consumer zooms in the Nikon line up that I really wanted due to their fantastic IQ for the price.

Secondly the flash ttl is very very reliable and never makes a mistake

the autofocus has more advanced options
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