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10-20-2007, 03:33 PM   #1
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K10D at iso 1600

You know, one criticism I have of critics of the K10D is the "issue" of it operating at high iso's. I shot all of the photo's, after the 5th on, here: www.kemal.ca - Morning at iso 1600 and they all operated fine for me.

I actually like noise and grain, not that there was a tonne of it, however I really think people have really latched onto this idea of achieving the absolutely most sharpest and clearest image know to man in using dslr's. That's ok, if it suits your needs. But I kept reading about how rough the noise was on the K10D and for me it just isn't true.

It sort of reminds me of the people who wanted archival developing paper and proudly stated how it's going to last over a 100 years...exactly how long do you plan on living? And will you be sane enough at 115 to appreciate your pictures? Great, you shot a very sharp photo. Wonderful. I just think that if there's noise involved, it isn't the end of the world.

I like the idea of lomophotography where saturated, noisy, maybe out of focus images are encouraged along with tossing the conventions out the window. But I'm also for convention where it may be suitable. I, personally, don't freak out with a noise issue unless it's absolutely critical. That's just me, it may be suitable for your needs.

10-20-2007, 04:51 PM   #2
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As I recall that is much better performance at ISO 1600 than film, but the fact is, the Nikon and Canon entery levels beat the K10d by a mile (in high iso), so the K10d is not competitive in that respect. As a consumer, I accepted that, but I'm not saying that it's ok. If pentax is not going to be competitive, they aren't going to win in the long haul.

I remember the interviews of the Japanese designers when the K10d was being developed. They indicated that they had trouble maintaining quality with the range of ISOs needed with that deisgn. Why not use a tried and true design like a CMOS? They made decisions that will have lasting impacts. Even the die hard fan boys are getting perturbed with the lens availability issues. I am still rooting for Pentax to pull it together.

BTW, one can always make a clean image noisier but not the other way around.
10-20-2007, 07:12 PM   #3
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Kemal, I opened your website, but the noise nearly deafened me

But seriously, ISO 1600 in bright light is not the same as ISO 1600 in low light. What were your shutter speeds and apertures for those photos?
10-20-2007, 08:17 PM   #4
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Image noise reduction software like Neat Image and Noise Ninja, and similar (less effective at the moment) capabilities built into image editing software like Photoshop and PSP, are quickly eliminating most concerns about image noise. I routinely shoot at higher ISO settings, easily cleaning up those images afterwards with Neat Image. And I fully expect to continue doing so through the coming winter months with plenty of overcast days and much longer nights.

stewart

10-20-2007, 08:42 PM   #5
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QuoteOriginally posted by Matt_K1000D Quote
As I recall that is much better performance at ISO 1600 than film, but the fact is, the Nikon and Canon entery levels beat the K10d by a mile (in high iso), so the K10d is not competitive in that respect. As a consumer, I accepted that, but I'm not saying that it's ok. If pentax is not going to be competitive, they aren't going to win in the long haul.

I remember the interviews of the Japanese designers when the K10d was being developed. They indicated that they had trouble maintaining quality with the range of ISOs needed with that deisgn. Why not use a tried and true design like a CMOS? They made decisions that will have lasting impacts. Even the die hard fan boys are getting perturbed with the lens availability issues. I am still rooting for Pentax to pull it together.

BTW, one can always make a clean image noisier but not the other way around.
Matt
I disagree with you..I speak from my own experience in that I also own a D200 and a D40...While I can't speak on canons, I can tell you that Nikon has ''NOTHING'' on my K10D...
Have you you yourself ever tested them?
10-20-2007, 08:46 PM   #6
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kemal Quote
You know, one criticism I have of critics of the K10D is the "issue" of it operating at high iso's. I shot all of the photo's, after the 5th on, here: www.kemal.ca - Morning at iso 1600 and they all operated fine for me.

I actually like noise and grain, not that there was a tonne of it, however I really think people have really latched onto this idea of achieving the absolutely most sharpest and clearest image know to man in using dslr's. That's ok, if it suits your needs. But I kept reading about how rough the noise was on the K10D and for me it just isn't true.

It sort of reminds me of the people who wanted archival developing paper and proudly stated how it's going to last over a 100 years...exactly how long do you plan on living? And will you be sane enough at 115 to appreciate your pictures? Great, you shot a very sharp photo. Wonderful. I just think that if there's noise involved, it isn't the end of the world.

I like the idea of lomophotography where saturated, noisy, maybe out of focus images are encouraged along with tossing the conventions out the window. But I'm also for convention where it may be suitable. I, personally, don't freak out with a noise issue unless it's absolutely critical. That's just me, it may be suitable for your needs.
Kemal
Please do take this the wrong way, but your pictures are not showing the true potential of the K10D...Here is my own personal photos that I took with no intention on performing a test..These pics aside from croping and resizing are originals..

ISO Test K10D - Photography & Digital Camera Forums

QuoteOriginally posted by jgredline:
Hi Folks..
Here are some pics I took last week with my K10D at the mission in Santa Barbara...
The lens I was using that day is my 28mm to 300mm Tamron lens..So it was not my best lens by any means...Had I used my 70 f1.8 I am sure I would have got better results...


This picture is at ISO 400..@28mm....I show this one so you may see the dark conditions..



Here is the same shot at ISO 1600 (max on a K10D) @28mm



Here is a similar shot still at 28mm but allot closer and ISO is only 1100



If you would like to check out the details, download the images and check out the properties or exif info....

I get great ISO shots with my K110D and MY100D super, but not nearly as nice as the K10D...Those extra MP make a difference... hope this helps...
10-20-2007, 09:00 PM   #7
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I may stand corrected but noise and grain are different issues. Shooting film that was high ASA and produced grain, is quite different than the noise I see in dark scenes at 1600 on digital. Lots of colour shifting and artifacts that were not there in high speed films. If you push the ISO to the limits in brighter scenes theres a lot less noise than a night shot. From my limited experience with high speed film (I rarely shot with that type of film) the K10D does a much better job at high speed than those films did.

As Stewart said Neat image works fine for me to make corrections in shots where I needed to push it that far.
10-20-2007, 10:06 PM   #8
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Jgredline, that's good to know on the Nikon, though I have seen some very convincing comparisons. With the Canons, yes, much first hand experience. The biggest diff is in dynamic range and VPN. Dynamic range is especially critical as developing RAW on difficult photos means results can be more prone to VPN. Also, chroma noise is significantly worse. Again, the samples shown in this particular thread are not very complimentary of the noise, but I also agree with OP that it doesn't necessarily degrade the image.

I just looked at two of my own images between the Canon 30d and the K10d (I have quite a few to compare but selected two), ISO 1600, 100% crops. To be honest, it isn't that much of a difference aesthetically, but when you consider the VPN and noise in a lot of images (dark areas), I still say the Canon is appreciably better. Again, it was not enough to prevent me from buying the Pentax.

10-20-2007, 10:49 PM   #9
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canon and nikon seems to use a more agressive noise reduction resulting in less details but also less noise, to me it seems to be just a trade off, noise ninja and neat image do a great job at removing noise anyways
10-21-2007, 01:34 AM   #10
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Thanks for some interesting responses. I suppose there is a distinction between iso 1600 in dark versus light settings. Clearly, the shutter speeds in light settings would be very fast. And the distinction between grain and noise is interesting and a good point to make.

But the addition of post-processing software like noise ninja and other similar approaches definitely take a bite out of the problem of noise. I've seen tests online concerning the K10D and I just don't see it as a big deal. Though, I could see where it would hinder a photo as well. I don't know, you guys make some pretty compelling arguments.
10-21-2007, 01:39 AM   #11
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QuoteOriginally posted by Matt_K1000D Quote
The biggest diff is in dynamic range and VPN.
I wish Pentax would take seriously the backout program idea through firmware that GordonBGood described on Deep E Review. Solving VPN in the K10D should not have been swept under the rug as there can be a way to reduce it.


QuoteOriginally posted by Matt_K1000D Quote
Also, chroma noise is significantly worse.
Chroma is the main noise issue with the K10D. The luminance is not so bad as more details are kept - including compared to the 30D.

As Pentax said they can access the ADC's for substantial adjustments, it would be great if by now they devised a firmware update that will provide a better written chroma noise algorithm leaving luminance alone.

Hopefully they haven't decided to just improve this stuff on the January cameras, closing the book on K10D IQ even if improvement is possible.
10-21-2007, 02:05 AM   #12
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kemal Quote
You know, one criticism I have of critics of the K10D is the "issue" of it operating at high iso's. I shot all of the photo's, after the 5th on, here: www.kemal.ca - Morning at iso 1600 and they all operated fine for me.
Hi, I've noticed that your album generates labels etc in Dutch (my native language) for me.
Can you tell me what software you are using to make your albums?

Thank,

- Bert
10-21-2007, 09:24 AM   #13
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QuoteOriginally posted by mutley Quote
I wish Pentax would take seriously the backout program idea through firmware that GordonBGood described on Deep E Review. Solving VPN in the K10D should not have been swept under the rug as there can be a way to reduce it.




Chroma is the main noise issue with the K10D. The luminance is not so bad as more details are kept - including compared to the 30D.

As Pentax said they can access the ADC's for substantial adjustments, it would be great if by now they devised a firmware update that will provide a better written chroma noise algorithm leaving luminance alone.

Hopefully they haven't decided to just improve this stuff on the January cameras, closing the book on K10D IQ even if improvement is possible.
Mutley or anyone really..
What is VPN?
And I have heard that Pentax is coming out with a 12.2 MP early next year..Is that what you are referring to?
10-21-2007, 11:09 AM   #14
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QuoteOriginally posted by jgredline Quote
Mutley or anyone really..
What is VPN?
And I have heard that Pentax is coming out with a 12.2 MP early next year..Is that what you are referring to?
It's sort of these tendrils of chroma noise running veritcally.

In the gallery linked at the top, you cna see them in the big versions of the shots where the asphalt is the background.

Take a high iso image under tungsten with a longish, but underxeposed, exposure of a nice uniform beige or white surface, and then increase the exposure, or simply crank the gamma, in post on the resultant picture. You will see what VPN is. It's much less pronounced in actual properly exposed pictures, but it still creeps in and can be a bit annoying.

I avoid 1600 because of it and am a bitmore careful about exposure at 800.
10-21-2007, 12:23 PM   #15
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bymy141, the gallery is run by Coppermine which is a free software tool that is bundled with my hosting. I believe you can download it and configure it yourself, but I haven't tried that. Vertical Pattern Noise, admittedly, is a pain. Once, it was really bad with a long exposure I was doing at iso 800 shooting jpegs. But with a new firmware update, it was later gone.
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