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10-25-2007, 11:29 PM   #16
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Good morning all.

My crops were:
1 - Canon 40D JPEG with default settings.
2 - Pentax K10D with default settings.

As I understood, everyone who replied, thought that second crop is better. I can see that some people thought that K10D's crop was the first one and took a little bit defensive line, trying to defend first crop

No, first crop isn't mis-focused, you can check whole picture at dpreview (playing card for example). It's famous Canon plastic look: let's clean the noise, remove textures and make very sharp edges! Pixel peepers are going to like it and camera will get great reviews!

Want to see another example of texture wiping in Canon 40D? Here it is (taken from Imaging Resource test pictures, default settings on both 40D and K10D):

Canon 40D:


Pentax K10D:


Canon JPEG looks terrible, right?

My point is that those selective crops are very misleading. You can find a lot parts on 40D jpeg where it looks better than K10D, also you can find a lot of parts where K10D is better. We need to look at whole picture and also we need to decide for ourselves: what are our preferences. Sharp as razor edges, natural looking textures, etc.

QuoteOriginally posted by and Quote
what I was pointing out is that in the comparison in that test
Canon EOS 40D Review: 24. Compared to...: Digital Photography Review
the 40d jpegs are better, not all hard to see. of course the k10d jpegs looks like all they need is a bit of usm, but it shouldnt be nescesary.
Interesting, I've made crops from exactly same images How did it come K10D crop look better? BTW, you're very right that K10D jpeg needs USM, it is also written in K10D manual, it says that K10D images in natural mode are intentionally not sharpened and need further processing. Also it says that for "punchy" colourful and sharp jpegs you need to switch to bright mode.

QuoteOriginally posted by and Quote
the k100d jpegs on the other hand were fine, strange why they didnt do the same for the k10d.
They did. K10D also have bright mode, which is default mode of K100D. Phil tested K100D in bright mode and was very satisfied, I am sure, that nobody would complain about "soft" jpegs if Phil would have tested K10D in bright mode.

10-26-2007, 04:37 AM   #17
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They probably get more ad money from Canon than Pentax.

I like the images that i see from my Canon shooting equine compadraes, but i just don't like the feel of their cameras.

Dave

Dave
10-26-2007, 08:09 AM   #18
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Well I'm glad it wasn't attributable to focus. I also didn't realize it was a crop from a formal review @ 1st.
QuoteOriginally posted by Edvinas Quote
[snip]
Want to see another example of texture wiping in Canon 40D? Here it is (taken from Imaging Resource test pictures, default settings on both 40D and K10D):
[snip]
LOL... that test image there from Imaging Resource that the crop was taken from played an enormous role in me deciding to go with the K10D back in July. Actually, upon further reflection, that standardize image comparison was the biggest deciding factor to me when comparing images taken with different cameras, comparing their color and detail presentation, vs. their noise behavior. That reminds me, I owe Imagining Resource a donation... oh, and here too!

Last edited by m8o; 10-26-2007 at 08:47 AM.
10-26-2007, 08:41 AM   #19
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QuoteOriginally posted by Edvinas Quote
They did. K10D also have bright mode, which is default mode of K100D. Phil tested K100D in bright mode and was very satisfied, I am sure, that nobody would complain about "soft" jpegs if Phil would have tested K10D in bright mode.
I didn't know the K100D defaults to bright mode. Interesting the reviewer, Phil didn't make that observation and set the K10D that way. Here's his statement on it:
QuoteQuote:
When we reviewed the K100D we thought Pentax had got their image processing just right, however the single element of the entire K10D equation which left us scratching our heads was just that. Either a poorly implemented demosaicing algorithm or a strange choice of sharpening parameters means that while the K10D's JPEG images have plenty of 'texture' they can lack the edge sharpness we're used to seeing from semi-pro digital SLR's.
It was only on another very good and popular digital camera review site that I learned of either setting the camera on bright, or [not 'and'] increase both sharpen and contrast a tick, negating any concern I had before my purchase over my potentially being unhappy over 'soft' JPG images produced.

I personally was never questioning my purchase of the K10D, though some AF woes means everything is not 'perfect'. This thread can if nothing else, let us rest assured the K10D is holding up quite well as time progresses and competitors release updates to their products. I'm happy with what I have.


Last edited by m8o; 10-26-2007 at 08:47 AM.
10-26-2007, 09:35 AM   #20
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The superiority of the 2nd Pentax picture is quite profound, it actually has sharp edges to the red square which is quite unusual for any digital camera. The 40D looks like 4MP by comparison. Ham-fisted noise reduction combined with a strong AA filter I would guess.
10-26-2007, 11:57 AM   #21
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Phil defended this position

If I remember correcty, after the review and subsequent criticism, Phil tested at "bright mode" and found no significant difference in his mind. He never retracted nor agreed to the "concensus" from the gallery as to the difference.
Can't find the statement but this is a bit of the discussion:
Re: Phil's K10D Review is up: Pentax SLR Talk Forum: Digital Photography Review
....... Turning the sharpness up increases the visibility of 'texture' but does not increase edge contrast. This can clearly be seen in my examples. This is because of the type of sharpening Pentax has chosen to use...................
So in effect, bright mode nor in-camera sharpening would improve the image in his mind...only PP in RAW would really help.
10-27-2007, 01:00 AM   #22
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When Phil told that K10D's in-camera jpegs and RAW converted jpegs with Pentax's original software are soft and containing less details, Pentax fanboys jumped and still are jumping on him to say he has been wrong is just a moron.

Now, whe Phil just "unintentionally" talks about the K10D's RAW can produce very detailed images, people got super excited and praise for the greatness of the K10D and thumb up for Phil again.

Really amazing for the phenomenon and the big contrast afterall..
10-27-2007, 03:26 AM   #23
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I have to admit, being new to digital it was a blow to my confidence when i first read Phils' review in Feb and seriously considered the 30D instead as this would likely be my only digital camera for a long while. When i got to the camera store i went in to buy the 30D and walked out with a K10D, much to the dismay of the salesman. He had to ask me 3 times if i was sure! I told him i was new to digital, true, but i wasn't new to photography. What made me purchase the K10D instead? On the counter of the shop is a book of test prints taken with various cameras of downtown Auckland. Holding the 30D in hand and ready to pay i asked out of curiosity if they had any test shots of the K10. He said they were jpegs only. Turns out one of the girls who worked there was a Pentax user and set the camera to bright mode for the tests prints (which i later found out when i went back to purchase the grip, he thought i was back to return the camera lol). I was blown away. I could of sworn i was looking at prints from film, she had used the 16-45 kit lens.

The proof is in the prints, always has been. Thats something i forgot when doubt swept over me reading Phils review. My thoughts were confirmed later in the year when i printed my converted DNG files (roughly 16 x 24" on heavy luster) for a mini exhibit at my tech. Everone kept commenting on the quality of the images asking me what type of film i was using for my enlargements! Thanks Phil but too little too late, i cant imagine how many people youve swayed from a great, if not the best of the current 10mp crop, camera with that first review.


Last edited by Kaimarx; 10-27-2007 at 03:32 AM.
10-27-2007, 03:33 AM   #24
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Original Poster
QuoteOriginally posted by RiceHigh Quote
When Phil told that K10D's in-camera jpegs and RAW converted jpegs with Pentax's original software are soft and containing less details, Pentax fanboys jumped and still are jumping on him to say he has been wrong is just a moron.

Now, whe Phil just "unintentionally" talks about the K10D's RAW can produce very detailed images, people got super excited and praise for the greatness of the K10D and thumb up for Phil again.

Really amazing for the phenomenon and the big contrast afterall..
phil talked about how much better the raw on the k10d before the 40d review. it produces more detail on the test for the k10d review it was against. the d80 and 30D, the fact is the canon 40D comes out with a new camera and its raw is just almost as good as the camera half the price.

canon blows cmon the lower end freaking lenses they wont even give you a lens hood! WTF? really you want more money? its a lens hood.
10-27-2007, 03:41 AM   #25
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QuoteOriginally posted by dancel Quote
phil talked about how much better the raw on the k10d before the 40d review. it produces more detail on the test for the k10d review it was against. the d80 and 30D, the fact is the canon 40D comes out with a new camera and its raw is just almost as good as the camera half the price.

canon blows cmon the lower end freaking lenses they wont even give you a lens hood! WTF? really you want more money? its a lens hood.
Actually, Phil's comment maybe true but that can tell just one side of the full story, AFAIK.

The K10D's high resolution and details in in one direction only. The trade-off is more aliasing noise and colour moire also. Actually, all these truths have been measured and revealed before, in the full test review at the PhotoZone:-

RiceHigh's Pentax Blog: Klaus Schroiff's K10D Review at PhotoZone

There is nothing new here, but just that when Phil just says one word good about the K10 or Pentax, everyone got super excited! Funny :-D

As for the money cheating ways by those camera makers, I hate it. You've pointed out a good example for the lens hood which is just cheap to make and provide. Fact is Pentax in the past did usually not provide the hoods all together when they were more popular, say, in the 70s and 80s. At that time, only 3rd party lens makers bundled lens hood with lenses.
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