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10-29-2007, 02:37 AM   #61
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QuoteOriginally posted by SupremeMoFo Quote
Hey, that's what you get with the attitude he presents.
Who? RH?

If I understand you right, you're saying that because he presents an unpopular viewpoint, that justifies the swathes of abuse that get heaped on him by some here?

I would have to disagree.

The sort of abuse that appears acceptable here would be completely unacceptable in any face to face environment.

10-29-2007, 03:45 AM   #62
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ChrisA, you really have a very different way at looking at the world from me. Supreme Mofo stated "Attitude" not "viewpoint" maybe to you they are the same thing but to me they are totally different.

Now for me personally I do not object to anyone not liking Pentax or believing it has a slow AF system or whatever. I certainly believe all things can improve , Ialso no that those improvements usually come at a cost.

I do however object to someone coming onto a forum to promote a blog that at first glance is an objective and informative site re Pentax, but then every article on the blog is bashing the Brand.

In my opinion the type of person who does this is either a complete twit or has an ulterior (possibly financial) motive.

I will state that Ricehigh is not offering a viewpoint, he just trawls the net looking for Anti Pentax sentiment, which is a different tactic from his early days of conducting his experiments - which if you disagreed with you were called a blind brand loyalist and if you questioned his testing methodology you were called a racist.

If he really wants to see Pentax improve, as he claims, then perhaps he should organise a petition to Pentax telling them that they should produce a $5,000 (AUS) camera that has (supposedly) faster AF than the current $1,000 (AUS) K10D.

Coordinating an organised bashing of the Pentax brand because their $600 (AUS) camera doesn't perform as good as his $5,000 Canon camera will not help sales nor Pentax R&D.

It is entry level camera sales that will fund the growth of higher end cameras - believe me without the phenomenal sales of the rebel/350D there would certainly not be a 5D. Just as without the phenomenal sales of the K1000 in the 80's we would not even have this forum today.
10-29-2007, 04:08 AM   #63
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QuoteOriginally posted by Falcons Quote
more stuff about RH snipped
I'm not commenting on RH's posts.

I'm commenting on people's rude and aggressive responses to them.
10-29-2007, 04:26 AM   #64
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... as Falcons said, yep I meant the attitude not the viewpoints so much. But even what he is saying, rather than how he says it - endless negativity. Do you like to be around people like that in real life? Neither do I!

I can understand what you're saying but the reactions are fuelled by a long line of unhelpful, negative, whinging opinions/"research results" which are ALWAYS linked to, rather than simply posted here. AFAIK RH has been warned about this many times and still links to the blog. I'm yet to see him say one postive thing on here... (that wasn't about his stupid 5D which the K10D consistantly bears the brunt of comparison too). He has little logic and is just annoying.

10-29-2007, 04:47 AM   #65
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QuoteOriginally posted by SupremeMoFo Quote
But even what he is saying, rather than how he says it - endless negativity. Do you like to be around people like that in real life? Neither do I!
Of course I don't. I think the best way of dealing with them is to quietly ignore and avoid them.

Not yell angrily at them and insult them every time they open their mouth.
10-29-2007, 04:53 AM   #66
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That requires self discepline and is also really boring.
10-29-2007, 04:56 AM   #67
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If anyone is going to do a scientific/technical evaluation of the k100D, I feel he should compare the k100D with Nikon D40 (or D40x), Canon 350D (or 400D) or the Olympus E-410 (or 510), since these models are prolly in the same league (price-wise and features-wise) as the k100D.

If k10D is being studied, then perhaps Nikon D200 and Canon 30D are the more appropriate comparison? Having the k10D go against the Canon 5D is perhaps pushing things abit, since the 5D cost about 5-6 times more than the k10D?

If RH is comparing the top of the line Canon camera (in this case the 5D) with the top of the line Pentax camera (it just happen k10D is the top of the line for pentax now), then it is perhaps not too convincing for people like me. If one day, pentax produced a camera (say k1D) of the same price range (and also feature wise) as the then high end Canon (or nikon) camera, then perhaps it would be a compatible comparision.

What do you guys think?
10-29-2007, 05:08 AM   #68
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I doubt 5D as the trump of the camera though. 5D is the success of marketing on the concept of FF.

k10d does it pretty well on all aspects charging so little for it!!

10-29-2007, 05:42 AM   #69
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QuoteOriginally posted by SupremeMoFo Quote
That requires self discipline and is also really boring.
I certainly wouldn't dispute this

But entertaining oneself, and presumably others that like the knock-about style, at the expense of someone else - no matter how much you don't like what they write - is in poor taste.

If I posted something that people disagreed with, and they were as rude and aggressive towards me as some are towards RH, I would find it offensive.

The moderators are very quiet on this subject. I wish they would clarify which sorts of offensiveness are acceptable here.
10-29-2007, 06:07 AM   #70
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QuoteOriginally posted by SupremeMoFo Quote
... as Falcons said, yep I meant the attitude not the viewpoints so much. But even what he is saying, rather than how he says it - endless negativity. Do you like to be around people like that in real life? Neither do I!
Most of the people doesnt want to be around negative people but I wonder what is the difference between RH, who spreads its negativity on Pentax, and other members who spreads their negativity on him. Besides, every comment (possitive or negative) will only fuel RH's ego since it should be clear for all that the main thing that he is looking for is notoriety. Whether or not this seeking is good or bad is out of my bussiness but at the end of the day most of us should be asking to ourselves if sometimes we dont do that too.
10-29-2007, 06:11 AM   #71
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If you go by these standards, the best of 2 companies, and people should only buy the best then lets make an analogy:

Bugatti Veyron is the most outrageous production car so far in production.

Lets compare it to the Mercedes SLR.

Clearly, the Veyron is way better than the SLR, at more than double the price. Does that make Bugatti a better car maker then Mercedes?

Should everyone save to buy a Veyron since it's the best?

Lets compare apples to apples shall we?
10-29-2007, 06:24 AM   #72
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QuoteOriginally posted by ChrisA Quote
Of course I don't. I think the best way of dealing with them is to quietly ignore and avoid them.

Not yell angrily at them and insult them every time they open their mouth.
Fine lines.... Personally (and I think you would agree) sometimes "quietly going away" can lead to all sorts of bad things happening historically. Passivity is not always the best course of action, though aggression should be tempered. Enough philosophy...
As to his constant cherry picking of bad (in many senses) research and hearsay and making them some type of authoritative source (which they don't deserve) is frustrating. Being a "supposed" engineer makes it worse when logic is twisted to his own ends..
I won't even go into any "case studies" as it's not worth my effort anymore.
He's stuck in the past and can't move on (even w/ owning his flagship Canon) and that is sad....
As to the USM "study", racking a lens back and forth and measuring a time is interesting and could be important but it also is not real good science. But the results ARE worth noting and commenting on, NOT make a religion of it... another fine line.
IF the lenses were NOT capable of dual drive function (as is 99% of USM lenses) this discussion would NOT occur and proof of some sort of "failure" would not be even possible.
BUT the "data" is there, so a logical person (and one w/ motivation to actually find the truth), instead of making some tabloid headline out of it would actually research it himself. Now not owning the camera or lens this is not possible but at least on can inquire as to other more qualified opinions have to say about it.
An example, I asked who I considered a "source" of good info weather there was any proof that USM are indeed faster than screw drives... since to be HONEST, how would anyone know IF the exact same drives were not set up in the exact same lens. Do we blindly believe te manufactures???????? Not me.
His personal comments to me are as follows:
USM motors are as fast as you make them, basically. It sounds like Pentax hasn’t optimized the “focus mass” in their lenses. When Canon and Nikon began using USM, they redesigned their focus mechanisms in the lenses so that a minimum of mass is moved a minimum of distance. You’d think that you’d do this for screwdrives, but it has to do more with torque, of which a screwdrive has plenty—there was little incentive to reduce mass as it didn’t improve anything for a screwdrive, as it still had to deal with the worst case lens you had produced. To me, it sounds like Pentax simply took a old-style lens design and stuck a USM motor in it. That’s NOT what Canon and Nikon did. They also have different speeds of USM. For example, the Nikkor 18-55mm and 55-200mm DX lenses clearly have a slower AF-S motor than, say, the 17-55mm and 70-200mm lenses.

The primary benefit of AF-S for Nikon users was a more repeatable focus and less focus hunting, though overall speed was increased, too. With a USM motor you can reliably predict how far to move it and a good phase detection AF system should know how far it wants to move things. Nikon and Canon maintain tables in the cameras about lenses, too, and it may be that Pentax doesn’t do that, either.

He says some things that don't reflect well on Pentax BUT I believe there are too many "assumptions" here as well. And note that not all USM's are created equal. Could be that Pentaxs put their best motor in the body, and the USM motor was only "equal to or slightly less than" that of the in body motor. Pentax themselves said the motor was "fast" NOT I REPEAT not faster..... I wouldn't assume faster though it is a somewhat supposed conclusion.
and also note that it could be that the K10 AF needs some logic tweaking as another possible
"answer" to the question that only Pentax allows you to even ponder....jeeshh
And on my last note: I see very little "passivity" in his posts, though he always tries to pretend it's there. Literally YEARS of this have taken their toll on my tolerance...AND I've have no problem saying what I had to say to him face to face since he is neither objective nor helpful, just "squeaky"......
10-29-2007, 06:42 AM   #73
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QuoteOriginally posted by jeffkrol Quote
Fine lines.... Personally (and I think you would agree) sometimes "quietly going away" can lead to all sorts of bad things happening historically. Passivity is not always the best course of action, though aggression should be tempered. Enough philosophy...
Agreed. My comment was in reference to the specific question as to whether I like surrounding myself by people that are constantly negative. But the alternative to passivity here is reasoned debate, not firing insults.

QuoteQuote:
Lots of good points, reasonably expressed, snipped
I agree with all this.

I can understand people's frustration - it does get annoying when the same old ground has to be covered, and there's just no arguing with some people.

But it's just photography - not brain surgery or air traffic control.
10-29-2007, 06:55 AM   #74
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QuoteOriginally posted by ChrisA Quote
Who? RH?

If I understand you right, you're saying that because he presents an unpopular viewpoint, that justifies the swathes of abuse that get heaped on him by some here?

I would have to disagree.

The sort of abuse that appears acceptable here would be completely unacceptable in any face to face environment.
Chris - in theory I would agree with you but after three years of RH's nonsense and misinformation and his deliberate, incessant desire to publicise his negative views about Pentax all over the web for anyone to see, I have no feelings of remorse about calling him out. He's simply a bogus fraud who has never ever posted supporting evidence for any of his claims.

Very few of us are claiming that Pentax is perfect but I am far more concerned that newbies with less knowledge and perspective will simply read what he sais and take it at face value and possibly steer clear of a purchase that would otherwise have suited them well. This is unforgiveable IMO and therefore his assertions and "reputation" need to be consistently denigrated to act as a counterbalance.

RH devotes considerable resources to this. I dont know if he has ever owned a Pentax or whether he now owns a Canon 5D but his motives are highly questionable and in my view he deserves neither politeness nor the respect I would normally accord someone with an honest opinion, however misguided I felt it was. He is entirely aware of what he is doing.

I wish the moderators would ban him from this forum as well. He became such a nuisance on DPReview that a lot of people left and stopped posting altogether, and he's one of the reasons I dont post here very often.
10-29-2007, 07:14 AM   #75
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QuoteOriginally posted by *isteve Quote
I am far more concerned that newbies with less knowledge and perspective will simply read what he says and take it at face value and possibly steer clear of a purchase that would otherwise have suited them well. This is unforgiveable IMO and therefore his assertions and "reputation" need to be consistently denigrated to act as a counterbalance.
I have no disagreement with this at all, and I very much support the objective you describe here.

But the 'Mr Angry' approach does absolutely nothing to achieve the counterbalance you describe.

I'm a relative newbie myself, having moved to digital from film only this year (though I've owned Pentax SLRs since the mid 80s). So I don't have the long history of reading RH's comments that others do.

But when I find myself comparing the shouters and yellers, and their less than insightful rants, with what I have seen of RH, I think they do Pentax no more of a favour.
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