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10-31-2007, 07:45 PM   #1
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In camera BW

Can you shoot in camera black and white with the K10d? Meaning can I set the camera to BW mode while still using RAW? I could do this with other dslr's and if needed I could pull the colors out when opening up the RAW file in Photoshop. Just wondered about this. The camera typically meters differently in BW mode. I really enjoy BW photos so this is something I would like to have.

10-31-2007, 08:35 PM   #2
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QuoteOriginally posted by Takman Quote
Can you shoot in camera black and white with the K10d? Meaning can I set the camera to BW mode while still using RAW? I could do this with other dslr's and if needed I could pull the colors out when opening up the RAW file in Photoshop. Just wondered about this. The camera typically meters differently in BW mode. I really enjoy BW photos so this is something I would like to have.
No can do.

If you shoot JPEG in camera, I believe you can convert to black and white in camera, too, but I never do it and I'm not sure.

I like black and white, too, but I do my conversions in Lightroom, which does a nice job -- especially if you use the saturation and hue method rather than simply hitting the grayscale treatment button.

Will
11-01-2007, 03:07 AM   #3
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QuoteOriginally posted by Takman Quote
The camera typically meters differently in BW mode.

I dont understand ? In what way can the meter perform differently in b+w mode ?

I thought the meter measured light not colours?
11-01-2007, 07:50 AM   #4
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In-camera B & W

I just tried it.

There is no option to "shoot in BW mode". All original images are captured in color.

If you're storing images in jpeg format, you can edit the image, after the fact, and convert it to BW, sepia tone, change the brightness, etc. Actually, it makes a copy of the original jpeg, with the changes. The original stays in the camera, unmodified. Of course, you can then delete the original, if you like.

When you view a RAW image, and press the Fn button, the digital filter option, where you do the conversion, is not available. If you "develop" the image into a jpeg, then all the options re-appear.

Paul Noble

11-01-2007, 09:06 AM   #5
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Noblepa - you live around where I grew up (Westlake - N. Olmsted). Very kool!

My big thing with in-camera BW is that I like to see the photo right after shooting to determine how light/shadow/composition, etc look in BW. I realize that you can do this during post process or using a software such as lightroom but to me its not the same thing. I think I made a boo boo with the whole metering differently thing.
11-01-2007, 09:57 AM   #6
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QuoteOriginally posted by Takman Quote
Can you shoot in camera black and white with the K10d? Meaning can I set the camera to BW mode while still using RAW? I could do this with other dslr's and if needed I could pull the colors out when opening up the RAW file in Photoshop. Just wondered about this. The camera typically meters differently in BW mode. I really enjoy BW photos so this is something I would like to have.
You can't, because the colored filters are permanently fixed over the photosites. If you got a black and white "RAW" image it wouldn't be RAW at all.

However, a RAW converter which knows that your end goal is black and white could use that knowledge when constructing its converted image, such that the conversion is tailored for black and white. Normally, RGB color information for a given pixel is interpolated from the color of the photosite itself plus that of the surrounding other colors. You'd still want this when doing B&W conversion so you could choose which wavelengths to emphasize, but there could be an advantage in doing it while knowing that B&W is the end goal.

I'm not an expert on specific RAW software so I don't know which programs do this best (or at all).
11-01-2007, 10:20 AM   #7
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Couple more thoughts.

About metering differently in b&w mode: Don't know if that's true because I don't know any camera that has a black and white mode. However, I would note that the K10D (and I think many other cameras) can show you two different histograms: an RGB histogram that's really three histograms at once, showing the distribution of the different colors; and a single consolidated histogram that I would expect to be identical or very close to what you'd get if you really were metering for black and white.

Re black and white conversion software: I am not familiar with all the options here, either, but now that I'm pretty good with Lightroom, I'd never go back to a program that simply has a "black and white" or "grayscale" button. Lightroom can convert to black and white several different ways. Even if you use the "grayscale" button, you can still exercise some control over the color channels. But the method I prefer now is to desaturate all the color channels using a preset. This gives me the ability to adjust all of the other aspects of the colors in a grayscale image, including doing things like making the red of a red shirt even redder or brighter. And since I can work on a virtual copy, I'm able to switch to the color original and see exactly what those colors were, and then tweak my grayscale conversion accordingly. It's more work than letting the camera do it would be, of course, but it gives me the flexibility to control the conversion myself in every aspect.

Will
11-01-2007, 10:32 AM   #8
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N*kon and C*non dslr have a BW mode w/ basic filters (red, yellow, and orange). You can set the camera to BW while still creating a RAW file. When you pull up the file - the sensor capture the color info by default. When you post process - it is your choice to keep the color or convert to BW. The filters are a digital effect but they are great.

Its not so much about pulling the RAW file but more about seeing the photo in BW as soon as you release the shutter. This allows you to re-shoot if you dont like what you see.

An example:

ROKKIN FOTO/sattlertheatre

I had the D80 set to BW mode and I intended to make this BW. However, when I pulled up the RAW file - the colors just popped. I kept it in color. The only post process is cropping in this. Anyhow this is huge for me because as I stated before I enjoy BW photos and wonder how much of a pain it would be to create a BW photo using the K10d. I dont go crazy doing PP and I only have PS Elements.

Anyhow I know I am all over the board here but I'd like to learn more about how you guys handle BW photos.

"RAW converter which knows that your end goal is black and white could use that knowledge"

That is interesting - Which RAW converters do this? I know there is the HUE/Saturation method and I use that for selective color if and when I use that technique.


Last edited by Takman; 11-01-2007 at 10:38 AM.
11-01-2007, 10:41 AM   #9
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QuoteOriginally posted by Takman Quote
N*kon and C*non dslr have a BW mode w/ basic filters (red, yellow, and orange). You can set the camera to BW while still creating a RAW file. When you pull up the file - the sensor capture the color info by default. When you post process - it is your choice to keep the color or convert to BW. The filters are a digital effect but they are great.

Its not so much about pulling the RAW file but more about seeing the photo in BW as soon as you release the shutter. This allows you to re-shoot if you dont like what you see.
Interesting. But what would you do differently when you reshoot?


QuoteQuote:
An example:

ROKKIN FOTO/sattlertheatre

I had the D80 set to BW mode and I intended to make this BW. However, when I pulled up the RAW file - the colors just popped. I kept it in color. The only post process is cropping in this. Anyhow this is huge for me because as I stated before I enjoy BW photos and wonder how much a pain it would be to create a BW photo using the K10d. I dont go crazy doing PP and I only have PS Elements.
Well, I basically get the same thing, shooting to raw (PEF), and doing my grayscale conversions on virtual copies in Lightroom. If I don't like my grayscale version -- and often I don't, some images don't convert as well as others -- I chuck it.

Nice pics, by the way! Are you saying that the museum conversion to black and white was done in the camera?

Will
11-01-2007, 11:14 AM   #10
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QuoteOriginally posted by WMBP Quote
Re black and white conversion software: I am not familiar with all the options here, either, but now that I'm pretty good with Lightroom, I'd never go back to a program that simply has a "black and white" or "grayscale" button.
Yep, I don' t mean that at all. But, when it goes to producing your "developed" image, the software should do the B&W conversion using the chosen weighted values in the same step as Bayer interpolation, rather than *first* interpolating the colors and then remixing after the fact.
11-01-2007, 11:38 AM   #11
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Change settings in the camera (i.e, type of filter used, aperture, shutter, etc) and re-shoot.

I took the museum photo in BW mode and yes that is pretty much the original photo. I believe I changed contrast a little bit.

The photos on the site are either taken with an Olympus E-500 (my 1st DSLR) or the Nikon D80. Olympus also has a BW mode and let me tell you - Olympus renders incredible BW photos.

Here is another one:

ROKKIN FOTO/decay

Didnt do much to this.

This one was taken in color and converted to BW using Photoshop elements.

ROKKIN FOTO/models
11-01-2007, 11:47 AM   #12
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I dont want to get into any arguments BTW. Having BW mode just seems to give me more control (perhaps its psychological). Also my knowledge of Photoshop is very limited. I havent touched any other software packages either.
11-01-2007, 01:22 PM   #13
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Takman,

Please don't take this the wrong way - but I would highly suggest a b&w "viewing filter" over any in-camera option (on any body, for that matter). I shoot only for b&w, and when I have a hard time seperating tones w/ my bare eyes (which is pretty rare, I've learned to think in relative brightness and filters) - I use a viewing filter. They've been used for fifty or more years by b&w photographers, and they work like a charm to give you an idea of "flat tonal seperation" - neither the VF or an in-camera filter can pull apart the colors like you would in post processing or with colored filters and development/contrast control in the darkroom.

I have a Zone VI filter myself, but almost never use it any more except for "flat, dark" scenes.

Here are some links:

Tiffen | #1 Black and White Viewing Filter | BWVF | B&H Photo
B&W Photo - Film & Processing Forum: Viewing Filter for Black and White Photography - photo.net
photo.net Forum: Black & white filter?

!c
11-01-2007, 03:30 PM   #14
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Shutterdrone - would never take your advice the wrong way. Appreciate the suggestion...I am here to learn. The nice thing about shooting in-camera BW is that you can view the tonal range right off the bat. However, I am beginning to see that people prefer doing the conversion to BW in a software. Funny thing I have friends who did the same thing. We were out shooting one day and I showed them an image in my camera which I had taken in BW mode. They did not realize or perhaps never checked out BW mode in their C*nons. Anyhow I am sure either in-camera or post process are both fine - as long as you get what you want.
11-01-2007, 05:02 PM   #15
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Takman,

As I said, I've not used a digital slr that did in-camera b&w when shooting raw. A while ago, there was an interesting thread here started by someone who wished that Pentax would release a camera that did NOTHING but b&w. I guess the idea was that the sensor would be specifically designed for that and nothing else. I think it's an interesting idea and I'd be happy to borrow such a camera and take 100 shots with it for fun.

But all in all, doing the conversion to black and white on the computer in post-processing SEEMS to me very analogous to doing the raw-to-jpeg conversion on the computer. It seems to me -- I could be wrong -- but it seems to me that it's best to save every bit of data you can get, so you have the greatest amt of flexibility later on. I'm not persuaded that the camera, with its specialized but basically very tiny brain, could ever be better than the computer, with its unspecialized but very big brain.

But you've made me want to borrow a camera that does black and white and give it a try....

Will
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